Opinions - Why LSD Should NOT Be Legal

[Lehendakari]

I would like to point out that alcohol, though legal is not a weak drug at all.

[Frond]

The social implications of LSD legalization are pretty irrelevant IMO. Anyone that wants LSD is going to get their hands on it, or at the very least on something similar, i.e. the Mushroom or perhaps some RCs. Legalizing it probably isn't going to create a dramatic increase in LSD use in the long-term, potential short-term curiosity-driven spikes in usage notwithstanding (of course I have no data to support this).

Also, LSD and other similar drugs tend to be somewhat self-policing. Anyone that isn't prepared for the experience is unlikely to have a good time and therefore repeat the experience. So, Joey Fratboy isn't likely to mess with acid more than once, chalking it up as "crazy shit, man" and sticking to his Budweiser from then on. This is why you don't see Salvia binges even though it is still legal in many areas - not many of the dumb kids that try Salvia are likely to enjoy the experience and wish to repeat it. These drugs don't take to liberties kindly, and unlike alcohol they will very quickly let you know themselves when it really is too much.

In terms of potential health issues - I have yet to see any statistics that link even heavy LSD use in healthy adults to any kind of demonstrable brain damage or any kind of health risk. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence for HPPD, but I've never seen any actual statistics that tie the incidence of HPPD to LSD use. As far as I know, LSD use by healthy people within reasonable parameters is safe, end of story.

Yes, people with mental problems should probably stay away from LSD. But, people with liver and kidney problems should stay away from alcohol. We as a society know this, so why shouldn't we be able to figure out who can and can't use LSD as well?

I cannot see a single sound and logical reason to impose the kind of penalties upon LSD use that currently go with it, aside from the obvious political ones.

Besides - and far more importantly - it's not the government's role to make moral choices on our behalf.

If the Founding Fathers were to come alive today, they would promptly shoot themselves upon seeing the state of the nation.

[Lou1024]

Originally Posted by Frond

In terms of potential health issues - I have yet to see any statistics that link even heavy LSD use in healthy adults to any kind of demonstrable brain damage or any kind of health risk. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence for HPPD, but I've never seen any actual statistics that tie the incidence of HPPD to LSD use. As far as I know, LSD use by healthy people within reasonable parameters is safe, end of story.

Yes, people with mental problems should probably stay away from LSD. But, people with liver and kidney problems should stay away from alcohol. We as a society know this, so why shouldn't we be able to figure out who can and can't use LSD as well?

People with HPPD are generally normal, healthy people before they acquire HPPD. And that's the problem. Underlying mental disorders ready to pop triggered by LSD. Knowing that you have liver problems is a hell of a lot easier than knowing if you will unravel a mental condition from a single hit of LSD.

Legalize LSD and public opinion of LSD will change, no doubt about it. It wont have the same stigma about it. LSD legalized means Mr.Fratboy must learn the hard way, and that's cruel. The process of "learning the hard way" could mean a lot of mental hell for a long time.

[Burnt]

I don't think you (starter of thread) or anyone else has the right to tell people they can or cannot take LSD.

[TheFamousSpacewhale]

I agree that it would be a good idea that people would be required to present an I.D. card saying they passed a test covering recommended dose, LD50 - recognizing the signs of O.D. and what to do -, common effects, duration, contraindications, short and long term health risks and addiction potential before being allowed to purchase any drug with strong potential for recreational abuse (alcohol included), as well as requiring that this information be printed on all packaging. I believe education is the solution to drug related problems, not prohibition.

[BigB-Baby]

You guys mention a lot about test and regulation, but what about how it was used when it was first synthed? Provide it to psychology students as a way to better understand their patients, and use therapeutically even just for self-reflection? Regulation could be as simple as allowing the medical community to prescribe it, but not place high standards, such as someone going to a psychiatrist and ask them for some for self-journey or something and allow them to take it in a a controlled environment before allowing them to use it else where. Sorry if someone already addressed this, only scanned the other post.....

[BigB-Baby]

Burnt, yes, who's to say someone can decide what someone else can do with themselves? But there are stupid people out there......you know who they are they're those damn idiots that end up all over the news and are repeatedly mentioned in the 'War' on Drugs, I think the starter of this thread is just saying that, it should be hard to get so everyone would just shut up about the 'dangers' of it.

[ATWA]

I believe in the total and complete legalization of all medical, recreational and spiritual drugs or substances regardless of the social consequences. Freedom to alter ones consciousness supersedes any negatives. So to me it is totally irrelevant if horrible things happen from the legalization of drugs. There is a higher principle at stake. So even if LSD users were jumping off buildings right and left I would still say it should be legal. Even if crack cocaine junkies were raping all over the place in the streets I still feel that it should be legal. I believe in all drugs being legal and letting things sort out on their own. Even if the legalization of drugs turned society into an arena of raping and pillaging all over the place I still support them being legal. We cannot allow social consequences to dictate freedom. The best we can do is to legalize all drugs and then put laws in place to protect society like laws against driving too high. This is my brave new world.

[Burnt]

But there are stupid people out there......you know who they are they're those damn idiots that end up all over the news and are repeatedly mentioned in the 'War' on Drugs, I think the starter of this thread is just saying that, it should be hard to get so everyone would just shut up about the 'dangers' of it.

Yes your concerns are understandable but the main problem with the war on drugs and societies views on drugs is exactly what you are saying. That people need to be controlled from their own stupid behavoirs.

Whos cares if people take acid and jump out a window its their own fault? Its a tragedy but its not within societies control. Obviously if they take acid and go driving its putting someone in danger and thus they should get a nice trip to jail for that kind of behavoir.

I don't think it should very difficult to get. Obviously it shouldn't be for sale at your local 711 but if someone is able to obtain it then so be it. If it was decriminilized I mean. If it was flat out legal then I'd imagine most people would want some control over its sale which is fine. But the point is that we have to accept that their are stupid people in this world and we cannot control their stupid behavoir, only they can. If they can't and wind up dead oh well.

[ATWA]

I tend to believe in a society of no legislated law for anything. Not for drugs or actions. If for example someone in my society drinks a bottle of vodka and takes some valiums with it and runs down 10 school kids at the school bus stop that is not illegal. But in turn the parents of the kids or a crowed by the same token has no law governing them and may burn the guy alive in the street if they want. A natural justice so to speak. A natural order.

So I think all drugs should be totally legal and also there should be no law. Nothing. Not for anything. Then what would happen would be things would be turbulent for a while but a lot of society would be eliminated. People with genetically medicated tendency toward sociopathology would gradually be killed off and people would begin to behave in a civil manner. I do not believe one can legislate behavior. If you drive drunk and hit my car I should be able to beat the living crap out of you in the street.

Now this may seem a little extreme but I do not think it is. You see law is not working. Not at all. Prisons are not working. I believe in sort of a natural social cleansing where there are true consequences for action. Like for example with the 9-11 incident. If all the people on the plane were armed with hand guns then those guys would not have been able to take over the plane.

I think we too often forget that man is a parasite on this planet. Without us the planet would be doing just fine. Who are we to make rules? If you do not make rules then natural law falls into place. I believe in law through no law. Wild animals do not have written law and they do just fine.

So no. LSD should not be illegal but I do not think anything else should be illegal either. Let things work out naturally.

[Burnt]

But in turn the parents of the kids or a crowed by the same token has no law governing them and may burn the guy alive in the street if they want. A natural justice so to speak. A natural order

Thats called anarchy. Ever heard of lynch mobs? They burned many innocent people to death. Is that what kind of natural order your propose? Not all cases are cut and dry thats why we have laws and a legal system.

I believe in sort of a natural social cleansing where there are true consequences for action.

Stalin and hitler also thought social clensing was a good idea. You propose social cleansing naturally. What about people who are sick and need help?

I think we too often forget that man is a parasite on this planet. Without us the planet would be doing just fine. Who are we to make rules? If you do not make rules then natural law falls into place. I believe in law through no law. Wild animals do not have written law and they do just fine.

We live in complex societies thus we need laws. The system you are proposing will lead to the strong dominating the weak. In modern times that would be people with the most weapons. They will kill those they don't like. They will take what they want.

Seriously your reasoning is very naive.

Reputation Comments on this post:

thanks for writing this so i didn't have to

[ATWA]

No it is not really that naive as I see it. I am talking about the END result. Not the path to that result. The end result would be significantly diminished populations and I suspect man would live in small herds. But I do agree that it would be traumatic until settling occurred. As far as your final statement. What I am advocating if the destruction of complex society. In fact the entire destruction of society as we know it.

But anyway I do not want to get too far off of LSD. I believe as far as LSD goes there should be no rules. Just let everyone go wild with it. Let nature sort things out. It will. Would there be death? Yes. Would there be craziness? Yes. Would there be a societal free for all? Yes. But after all is weeded out we would have peace. Perhaps man would be eliminated and maybe not. But the Air Trees Water and Animals would come into balance. There are no bad trips. There are no bad consequences from the sacrament. This is the big picture as I see it. My vision of a brave new world. There iss turmoil within peace and peace within turmoil.

[Potter]

Frond: Nobody disagrees that there aren't JoeFratBoys going on Salvia binges. Nobody used to have a friend who had a HORRIBLE first experience with the stuff (like most of his psychedelic experiences) yet kept going back to it. One day he starts talking about how he got two grams and smoked bowl after bowl of it, each time having a breakthrough worse then the last. Alas they have met too many druggies* who have stopped enjoying any substance, yet every weekend do what ever they can because that's want they do.

One of nobody's brothers, an experienced, if bull headed, psychonaut, was told by The Lady that he didn't belong in the Sage Lands one day and through him out. Did he listen, of course not and the next time she beat the crap out of him before kick his ass all the way back to earth. Think it took one more object lesson before he finally took heed and realized she was no ally of his.

Nobody has no insight into the mindset that of the first person, but suspects it's the same drive that makes people drink till they puke, blackout, and wake up the next day with "can't remember last night, must have been AWESOME! BEER WOOT!" Nobody suspects there's a decent chunk of the population that has this mindset and it would be a grave oversight to think otherwise.

Don't know how psychedelics aught be handled. Frankly, nobody is an elitist and doesn't believe that most people are capable of handling such things. Western society has no place for shamans or psychedelic sacraments, there area few cults, but their rare as hell and never talked about publicly. It really seems to nobody, that educating an individual on safe drug use it simply too difficult of a process to integrate into our society. In some ways it's easier and safer to have such things kept hidden.

[ComfortablyNumb]

I agree from a certain perspective but I doubt just making it legal will make everyone want to take it. If someone wants to take LSD enough, they will find a way. People will still be wary of it. If the government made it legal it wouldnt be readily available everywhere.

[fnord]

as mentioned LSD used to be widely available and completely legal,people would gather in huge warehouses and throw "rave" like party's with huge batches of lsd punch in the middle,sure there was a freakout or two but people were fine.

videos can be found here.

[ATWA]

People with HPPD are generally normal, healthy people before they acquire HPPD. And that's the problem. Underlying mental disorders ready to pop triggered by LSD. Knowing that you have liver problems is a hell of a lot easier than knowing if you will unravel a mental condition from a single hit of LSD.

Legalize LSD and public opinion of LSD will change, no doubt about it. It wont have the same stigma about it. LSD legalized means Mr.Fratboy must learn the hard way, and that's cruel. The process of "learning the hard way" could mean a lot of mental hell for a long time.

First off HPPD is NOT a mental disorder. It is a visual perceptual disorder. It is not something mental that is latent or caused by psychedelics to the mind. It is crucial to understand this. It happens to be listed in the DMS4 because it needs to be distinguished from other disorders involving the "psyche". It may be a form of sensory epilepsy of some type or other disturbance. But not "mental". Second off all I would say that everyone in life needs to learn the hard way and "mental hell" is part of life. In other words if one is thinking they are "messed up" from acid I say pull up your pampers and take it like a man (Or woman). Take your medicine. It's good for you. It is a sacrament and only good can come from it. I mean holy shit. Do people think that if they probe into the mind they are getting off scott free? We are all fucked up and need resolution. And the path is not always pleasant. But always rewarding. Of course unless one does something stupid along the path and gets scared and starts reading the Bible and talking about Jesus. Christ, I hate when that happens. At least I hate when the person is stuck for life.

[Lou1024]

SwiATWA, that is a very very naive stance you have taken.

In other words if one is thinking they are "messed up" from acid I say pull up your pampers and take it like a man (Or woman).

Have you ever suffered from a condition which affects the mind? Yes, in a sense everyone is mentally "fucked" but not everyone has a serious underlying condition. And on HPPD being purely visual - Intense HPPD brings along with it some uncomfortable anxiety and and sometimes outright panic. Swim has seen lives ruined when someone has HPPD deep enough. A condition known as Derealization can also accomplice HPPD in its endaveors. Very very uncomfortable to say the least.

[ATWA]

Originally Posted by Lou1024

SwiATWA, that is a very very naive stance you have taken.

Have you ever suffered from a condition which affects the mind? Yes, in a sense everyone is mentally "fucked" but not everyone has a serious underlying condition. And on HPPD being purely visual - Intense HPPD brings along with it some uncomfortable anxiety and and sometimes outright panic. Swim has seen lives ruined when someone has HPPD deep enough. A condition known as Derealization can also accomplice HPPD in its endaveors. Very very uncomfortable to say the least.

Those things are NOT HPPD but things that may go along with it. ATWA cannot be concerned with the fears and suffering of a person. ATWA must be concerned with the good in the end the acid does. And lives my be changed but "ruined" is a relative term. The sacraments ALWAYS work for the greatest good. They purge the soul. This is how ATWA sees it.

[runitsthepolice]

Whats wrong with frat guys who like beer anyway? Isn't putting all frat guys into a stereotype the same thing that people do to drug users? They say drug users are immoral and need to be thrown in jail. Shouldn't we as people who are discriminated against be the last ones to group others into a stereotype? Who are we to say they can't handle drugs if they were properly educated?

Spacewhale has the right idea.