Health - Low Serotonin Symptoms - Memory Torture

[metaphoria]

SWIM recently came across this article on the symptoms of low serotonin.

(I can't post the url since I have under 50 posts, but if you google "low serotonin" it's the first page. "Serotonin: From Bliss to Despair")

Some of these really hit home with SWIM...he did E every weekend for 3 months straight Feb-Apr of last year, and then sporadically until 2 months ago. He decided to take a 6 month break, but he's still experiencing quite a few of these symptoms.

Thinking speed will increase. You will have difficulty controlling your own thoughts. The brain will focus on torturing memories and you’ll find it difficult to stop thinking about these uncomfortable memories or images.

Memory torture will begin. Your brain, thinking at 100 miles an hour, will search your memories for your most traumatic or unpleasant experiences. You will suddenly become preoccupied with horrible experiences that may have happened ten, twenty, or even thirty years ago. You will relive the death of loved ones, divorce, childhood abuse – whatever the brain can find to torture you with – you’ll feel like it happened yesterday.

SWIM can't stop thinking of bad situations that happened months, even years ago. SWIM thinks of terrible breakups from ages ago. Loss of loved ones. Even SWIM's girlfriend's sexual past bothers him...he runs into someone she slept with 2 years ago and can't get his mind off it.

SWIM has had an extremely hard time overcoming this and it's been a real obstacle for him. The smallest reminder of something negative and it's all he can think about. If he's in a good mood it'll send him into complete depression at just the thought. SWIM is bi-polar and taking ecstasy probably only fucked him up even more, but he's been taking 5-HTP and trying to increase his intake of tryptophan to rebuild serotonin. SWIM is on Wellbutrin (anti-depressant) and Lamotragene (mood stabilizer). Wellbutrin acts primarily on dopamine though so SWIM can see how it wouldn't help with the lack of serotonin.

SWIM was just wondering if anyone else has experienced this "memory torture" after E usage? SWIM is curious if it really is because of the drug or some other underlying problem.

[waffen]

Hello mate
Swim's got just the same symptoms as yours from e usage .
E can f*** your mind ..

[KomodoMK]

Little fishy used to consume around 8-12 pills once or twice a week for over a year, eventually his short term memory loss was very severe, he would lock the front door on the way out and by the time he got to the end of the garden path couldn't remember if he had done it or not. This was when little fishy knew he had to stop, and he did. It took a full year of abstinence for his memory to return to normal, and for other side effects to disappears. These other side effects mostly consisted of sleep disturbances and sleep paralysis, which was scary and awful at first but became wonderful when little fishy converted it into a lucid dreaming like state.

The above taught little fishy a valuable lesson, this is a drug to be respected! He now only uses crystal MDMA around two to five times a year which huge periods of abstinence in between. Sadly, whilst some of the magic has returned, the height of the euphoria and the depth of the empathy will never be the same.

Article the original poster was referring to can be found here: http://www.enotalone.com/article/4116.html

[Ilsa]

it's been a minute since i've taken neurobio/neurotox, but if i remember correctly, ecstasy is toxic to most, if not all, serotonergic neurons. since it causes massive release of serotonin, the cells bocome depleted and this leads to cell death. the damage is reparable to some extent, but particularly susceptible are the raphe nuclei.

check out box 9.2 in the link. since these nuclei (bundles of cell bodies inthe brain) have outputs ranging from the peripheral NS to cerebral cortex, effects can be diffuse. best of luck--good job quitting for awhile

[CuriousJOE]

I expect most people experience this, SWIM does. Even small "upsetting" situations can depress SWIM in times of comfort. But SWIM knew, and still know's what he is getting into every time he drops. To be honest SWIM is looking for a new drug, hopefully a downer.

[thealmassi1]

Wow, SWIm has only done MDMA 3 times in his life all in the past 7 weeks and can relate exactly with this. The last time he did it was on New Year's Eve and took a lot - 5 pills. The past 3 nights he hasen't been able to sleep due to depressing thoughts and a constant need to dwell on small disappointments/loss relationships/etc. The small ones are the most frustrating since they are so meaningless to SWIM yet htey make SWIM so DEPRESSED. Fortunately, SWIM has felt unusually good today despite the lack of sleep.

[toeknee]

Swim can also relate to this. Swim has recently the past 7 months been the happiest he has ever been, met a girl who changed his life. Proposed on new years eve =]. However, swim has noticed an increase in depressive behaviors, irrational thoughts, and dwelling on deaths in the family, things that happened ages ago. Swim has been wondering if he had an undiagnosed case of manic depression or even bi-polar disorder. Swim abused MDMA for 3 months in 2008 and has only used it 3 times since then with long breaks in between. Swim has been getting alot better at dealing with it, and is realizing alot about himself even in these dark times.

thank swiy for the article.

[thealmassi1]

If I was to ingest 100-200mg of 5-HTP everyday for its antidepressant qualities, would this lead to a permanent depletion of serotonin? Would it leave me reliant on it and make me depressed for a long time if I stopped using it?

SWim has always felt a little depressed since he was 15 and maybe wants to try this drug to relieve it. He has taken it the past 2 days and he hasen't felt this good in a long time while sober. Don't get me wrong, I don't have severe depression or even mediocre depression. I just have felt down ever since my teenage years.

My 18-year-old friend also wants to try the regular use of 5-HTP. Is that advisable or is he too young or anything?

I realize this is off topic but this has been really puzzling me and my friend. Sorry.

Any help appreciated.

[Cryptic Concoction]

Almassi, 5-HTP does not result in direct serotonin depletion. 5-HTP, a precursor to serotonin, is decarboxylated in the body to synthesize serotonin. Thus, theoretically, administration of 5-HTP may increase the availability of serotonin, thereby increasing its release and serotonergic activity. As opposed to a drug such as MDMA, which presumably exerts its effects chiefly through causing serotonin reuptake transporters to extrude serotonin into the synapse, 5-HTP administration theoretically increases the production of serotonin through directly increasing the availability of a serotonin precursor.

Speculation that 5-HTP may have antidepressant effects should be qualified to incorporate the fact that very little rigorous scientific analysis has been conducted regarding the short-term and long-term effects of 5-HTP administration as well as its potential therapeutic benefits. Not only this, but some currently impugn the validity of the monoamine hypothesis of depression (The monoamine hypothesis of depression is the hypothesis that the biological basis of depression is hypoactivity of dysfunction of the monoaminergic systems, which include adrenaline, norepineiphrine, dopamine, and serotonin).

Given the paucity of information available, it is difficult to determine whether or not this would assuage SWIY's depression and whether or not it may have potentially deleterious long-term effects. I am not aware of the degree to which 5-HTP can potentially increase the availability of 5-HT (serotonin) in the central nervous system when the dose mentioned is administered.

Once again, to the best of my knowledge, the potential long-term effects of 5-HTP remain relatively obscure, and its potential therapeutic value does not appear to be well documented or scientifically assessed. With such scant information, I cannot reliably affirm--or even speculate--as to the potential long-term effects of administering 5-HTP. It is also difficult to say whether or not the central nervous system would employ compensatory mechanisms in response to an equilibrium-upsetting increase in 5-HT activity or production.

On a side note, I will issue the caveat that it may be imprudent to combine serotonergic drugs, because of the potential increased risk or serotonin syndrome.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good response.

[Jasim]

Good post Cryptic Concoction. A few comments.

Originally Posted by Cryptic Concoction

Not only this, but some currently impugn the validity of the monoamine hypothesis of depression (The monoamine hypothesis of depression is the hypothesis that the biological basis of depression is hypoactivity of dysfunction of the monoaminergic systems, which include adrenaline, norepineiphrine, dopamine, and serotonin).

I certainly think it's a bit more complicated, but interfering with these systems (through the use of psychoactive drugs) is likely to cause some mental disturbances.

In response to several other posts.
Any serotonergic drug (tryptamines, many phenethylamines, and others) have the potential of causing neuronal pruning in addition to disrupting the supply of neurotransmitter and precursor.
Lack of time now, I will find sources and repost.

Swim uses several serotonin and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors (duloxetine, citalopram, tramadol..) and kavalactones to mitigate these effects.

Without these measures, swim just doesn't feel himself until long after ceasing to use a substance (months of staying clean).

The extent of monoamine depletion and neuronal pruning and the effects this causes on an individual will varies depending on the person, drug, and particular instance.

[Jasim]

Originally Posted by Jasim

Any serotonergic drug (tryptamines, many phenethylamines, and others) have the potential of causing neuronal pruning in addition to disrupting the supply of neurotransmitter and precursor.
Lack of time now, I will find sources and repost.

Took me a bit to find the sources I was looking for. Luckily a colleague informed me that MDMA is well documented for causing such pruning. Also, I discovered that most papers dealing with the subject are listed under the keyword 'neurotoxic' or variants.

Here's a link to a fairly decent MAPS review which discusses the topic: http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v06n1/06108neu.html


There's also quite a few papers in the forum documents. I grabbed a couple from EBSCOhost that I thought were interesting and discuss the topic of serotonergic pruning.

[drugchemist]

While Swim was high and browsing the forums, he stumbled upon this thread. He told me to write this for him. He took MDMA 3 time a month a part each time. He is experiancing these symptoms to some degree and he was wondering if all of this is applicable to MDA as well? He likes MDA more but would stop if it would make these nasty thoughts go away

[KomodoMK]

Originally Posted by thealmassi1

Wow, SWIm has only done MDMA 3 times in his life all in the past 7 weeks and can relate exactly with this. The last time he did it was on New Year's Eve and took a lot - 5 pills. The past 3 nights he hasen't been able to sleep due to depressing thoughts and a constant need to dwell on small disappointments/loss relationships/etc. The small ones are the most frustrating since they are so meaningless to SWIM yet htey make SWIM so DEPRESSED. Fortunately, SWIM has felt unusually good today despite the lack of sleep.

Originally Posted by toeknee

Swim can also relate to this. Swim has recently the past 7 months been the happiest he has ever been, met a girl who changed his life. Proposed on new years eve =]. However, swim has noticed an increase in depressive behaviors, irrational thoughts, and dwelling on deaths in the family, things that happened ages ago. Swim has been wondering if he had an undiagnosed case of manic depression or even bi-polar disorder. Swim abused MDMA for 3 months in 2008 and has only used it 3 times since then with long breaks in between. Swim has been getting alot better at dealing with it, and is realizing alot about himself even in these dark times.

thank swiy for the article.

This is pretty mild use of MDMA and I very much doubt enough to cause significant Serotonin depletion leading to your symptoms of depression. There are many other possible causes out there...

Originally Posted by drugchemist

While Swim was high and browsing the forums, he stumbled upon this thread. He told me to write this for him. He took MDMA 3 time a month a part each time. He is experiancing these symptoms to some degree and he was wondering if all of this is applicable to MDA as well? He likes MDA more but would stop if it would make these nasty thoughts go away

Yes, MDA can also lead to serotonin depletion when used chronically, and your symptoms should subside with abstinence. If you have only used 3 times with a month apart each time I would be looking into other possible causes for your symptoms though.

[ticc]

thanks for the post omg, cleared so much up =}

[snapper]

SWIM wonders how much of the symptoms SWImetaphoria describes are simply due to bipolar disorder and/or depression exacerbated by MDMA use. SWIM regularly has months of this kind of unrelenting depression and SWIM has not used E in at least 10 years, and methylone only maybe 5 times in the last 3. SWIM finds the depression will suddenly lift and then come back later. The obsessively negative thoughts and paranoia are very much a part of the depression and can only be referred to as torture. SWIM has just learned to live with this aspect of being bipolar. No matter what meds they give you, SWIM has found none control the problem completely, but SWIM would think the best choice for serotonin depletion would be an SSRI.

[Ilsa]

Originally Posted by snapper

SWIM wonders how much of the symptoms SWImetaphoria describes are simply due to bipolar disorder and/or depression exacerbated by MDMA use. SWIM regularly has months of this kind of unrelenting depression and SWIM has not used E in at least 10 years, and methylone only maybe 5 times in the last 3. SWIM finds the depression will suddenly lift and then come back later. The obsessively negative thoughts and paranoia are very much a part of the depression and can only be referred to as torture. SWIM has just learned to live with this aspect of being bipolar. No matter what meds they give you, SWIM has found none control the problem completely, but SWIM would think the best choice for serotonin depletion would be an SSRI.

yep--this is why the drugs-depression debate is so reminiscent of the chicken-egg debate. do ppl use because they are depressed? or do they use, which results in depression? for swim, much of her use (past and current) has definitely been an issue of self-medication. she used E, acid and mushrooms for several years, then moved on to other substances beyond the scope of this thread. suffice to say, she certainly thinks she's exacerbated the root issue via the use of certain drugs. it's been almost 8 years since she's used any E, and although she still has some memory/concentration issues, most of the worst side effects subsided within a year at most.

having had intermittent bouts of severe depression since 15, she can say that swiy has made a good decision in stopping, and as swisnapper said, an SSRI might help and even aid in repairing some neural damage.

[CuriousJOE]

Obviously drugs cause depression; there are masses of hormones flying around this forum. What a mess.

Reputation Comments on this post:

how was that helpful OR constructive?

[KomodoMK]

Misuse of drugs can cause depression. Sensible and careful use will have positive or neutral effects on a person, with little to no negative. In my opinion of course...

[CuriousJOE]

Originally Posted by KomodoMK

Misuse of drugs can cause depression. Sensible and careful use will have positive or neutral effects on a person, with little to no negative. In my opinion of course...

I think this defeats the object of drugs; drugs are not sensible, and not careful; drugs are a misuse in themselves.

[KomodoMK]

Originally Posted by CuriousJOE

I think this defeats the object of drugs; drugs are not sensible, and not careful; drugs are a misuse in themselves.

Not at all... could you apply that same statement to nootropic drugs? For the most part drugs have only had a positive effect on little fishys mental state of mind and improved his general lifestyle. It's not the tools that cause the problems, it's how you use them.

[CuriousJOE]

Yeh, well, all these chemical tools erode SWIMs mind.

[Ilsa]

Originally Posted by CuriousJOE

Yeh, well, all these chemical tools erode SWIMs mind.

well i'm kinda curious, CuriousJOE, given the views you've expressed in earlier posts: what do you hope to gain by being here? your first post looked promising, then it all went to shit for some reason. unless i misunderstand, you seem to be a bit anti-drug (although it seems swiy has done some experimenting in the past)--i take no issue with this, to each his own. i am confused as to why you would create an account on a forum called DRUGS-forum when you are so obviously anti-drug and don't seem to have an interest in helping anyone with harm reduction or recovery. so what is your purpose here? to post useless, inflammatory one-liners? there are a couple rules you might want to take a gander at here

sorry to get off-topic, or if i sound like a bitch, but it's annoying when ppl do what you're doing. add something useful or be quiet please.

to drugchemist: melatonin helps regulate sleep cycles--here's another gem from the mayo clinic about it

to komodo: so true--a drug is a thing and therefore incapable of 'doing' anything all on its own, it's all about the animate user and HOW they use

[thealmassi1]

They haven't researched a drug that advises to regularly take 100mg 3 times a day on the bottle?? Jeez, the FDA approved of this? I think SWIM'll probably just take a 100 mg tablet every couple days or if SWIM is feeling unusually depressed. It helps with SWIM's need to vape weed every night in order to fall asleep. SWIM vapes because he has problems sleeping without it and SWIm's thoughts run wild before sleep and they're usually not that positive, sometimes they can be the primary reason he can't fall asleep. SWIm's planning on cutting his cannabis use and was hoping 5-HTP would help him. Damn

[Ilsa]

Originally Posted by thealmassi1

They haven't researched a drug that advises to regularly take 100mg 3 times a day on the bottle?? Jeez, the FDA approved of this? I think SWIM'll probably just take a 100 mg tablet every couple days or if SWIM is feeling unusually depressed. It helps with SWIM's need to vape weed every night in order to fall asleep. SWIM vapes because he has problems sleeping without it and SWIm's thoughts run wild before sleep and they're usually not that positive, sometimes they can be the primary reason he can't fall asleep. SWIm's planning on cutting his cannabis use and was hoping 5-HTP would help him. Damn

nothing sold as a supplement has to be fda approved in the united states...as far as sleep, diphenhydramide (sominex, benadryl) can be used short-term but may cause a bit of a hangover...my cat finds that smokin a bowl helps as well. good luck


and, last i checked, serotonin wasn't a hormone, it's a neurotransmitter. unless the post about that meant something else entirely?

[drugchemist]

Originally Posted by thealmassi1

They haven't researched a drug that advises to regularly take 100mg 3 times a day on the bottle?? Jeez, the FDA approved of this? I think SWIM'll probably just take a 100 mg tablet every couple days or if SWIM is feeling unusually depressed. It helps with SWIM's need to vape weed every night in order to fall asleep. SWIM vapes because he has problems sleeping without it and SWIm's thoughts run wild before sleep and they're usually not that positive, sometimes they can be the primary reason he can't fall asleep. SWIm's planning on cutting his cannabis use and was hoping 5-HTP would help him. Damn

This is exactly what swim goes through. Swim uses weed to fall asleep as well. If not thoughts run wild. 5-HTP didn't work for swim but melatonin did. Knocked swim out like a charm.