Drug info - 5-HTP + MDMA = disappointment

[thealmassi1]

SWIM has been researching on the internet regarding these two substances and the many people that find they compliment each other. SWIM read a report where someone took dozens of 5-HTP pills before, during and after the trip and said it improved the trip immensely. He has found generally most people take it to ease the comedown and this was supposed to be SWIM's plan until he changed it...

On New Year's Eve, SWIM took 200 mg of 5-HTP over 5 hours before he ingested the X (good quality MDMA). He did not take any others on the previous days, which some people advised to do, and was expecting the 5-HTP will improve the MDMA effects by forcing his brain to release more serotonin. SWIM felt a slight high for an hour or two after he took the 5-HTP and was trying to ignore the thought that this euphoric effects might have depleted his serotonin in his brain which might affect roll later that night. When he finally dropped 5 pills, a dose that usually gives him such a rush that he becomes immobile and so HAPPY, but instead, it made him energetic and euphoric to a lesser extent. He felt like he took 1-2 pills. Such disappointment since he did not have any other drugs and knew mixing acohol and MDMA is not a great idea so abstained from that route. He ended up smoking a bundle of weed and ate two pot brownies. It was fun being with friends and all, but none the less, SWIM was dissatisfied. He will not be able to roll again for a long while due to lack of availibility and wants to share his experience so others won't make the same mistake.

Don't take 5-HTP on the day of SWIY's roll!! IMO, take the 5-HTP 2+ days before the roll and the days after with no more than 200 mg per day.

[DXMBunny]

well the last part of your post is a good advice.. but 5htp is a precursor to serotonin which means that the body turns it directly into serotonin.. .the body of course needs time to do this... and mdma basically drops all serotonin from your brain...

maybe swiy didnt have enough time to refresh his brain of serotonin since last trip..

also it helps for one not to wait or expect the trip... but to welcome it when it comes!

DXMBunny added 1 Minutes and 7 Seconds later...

swim wants to add that 5htp has helped swim with the come down and very much so... taken before during and after helps alot... but its good to take 5htp as a daily supplement to.. it helps serotonin regulation tremendously... and makes you feel generally better daily!

[Samadhi]

There are anecdotal reports of people who have pre-loaded with 5-htp 1-2 days before an MDMA dose and actually had diminished effects...

But as stated above, 5-htp is a pre-cursor to serotonin and takes a while to actively effect the brains levels of serotonin.

now onto swims opinion... maybe swiy expected the 5-htp to do more than it has the ability to do. MDMA is to swim like a psychedelic, it all depends on set and setting, this includes mental set and setting, telling the brain that taking something will make something better is like a doctor giving a placebo to a patient, except the patient notices no effect.

Also, this brings to question the form and quality of the MDMA, was it crystals/powder MDMA? or did it come in the form of a pill? if so, was this pill tested via marquis or other related reagent test?

there are many factors that could have made swiys MDMA experience not all he/she hoped for.

[Jasim]

Originally Posted by Samadhi

There are anecdotal reports of people who have pre-loaded with 5-htp 1-2 days before an MDMA dose and actually had diminished effects...

But as stated above, 5-htp is a pre-cursor to serotonin and takes a while to actively effect the brains levels of serotonin.

Maybe you are overestimating the time it would take for 5-htp to effect brain levels of serotonin. It is possible that 1-2 days could be long enough for the body to begin adapting to the artificial supply of 5-htp and begin downregulating the endogenous production of 5-htp.

Or, 5-htp has been shown (in a few studies) to act in a way similar to ssri's for depressed patients. It is known that use of ssri's have negative effects on tryptamine (serotonergic) drug effects.

[Shampoo]

Another thought: 5-HTP theoretically results in excess extracellular serotonin, right?

Well, this excess serotonin most likely activates somatic 5-HT-1A receptors, which are autoreceptors.Autoreceptors, when activated, limit the amount of neurotransmitter (in this case, Serotonin) being released by a given neuron.

When working with a drug such as MDMA, which relies on a neurons intrinsic ability to synthesize and release serotonin, activation of autoreceptors may have a deliterious relationship with the drugs activity. This is the case for LSD, and is likely also the case for MDMA.

[MindNRA]

SWIY actually has to second this. SWIY also thought 5HTP would improve the roll. He had two pills, he took one and had an amazing roll. Then about two months later, he went to a concert, took a bunch of 5HTP all week and on the same day he rolled and then took the second one. Was nowhere near as powerful, in fact it ran out after 2-3 hours. For SWIY, one good pill is usually more then enough.

Anecdotal or not, don't take 5HTP before your roll, after ... sure but not before.

[Methadrone]

Swim would say that it's never a good idea to take anyhting that messes with your serotonin before taking MDMA as it's likely to effect you're 'come-up' as swim found out by taking cocaine before good MDMA, it gave swim a good high but, because of the coke (cocaine) the come-up (the best bit in swims oppinion) was non-existant.

Swim would only ever advise swimmers take 5HTP after your roll

[phatassone]

its important not to take 5-htp before or during your XTC roll, it will kill it.. take it for the comedown, and the days following your XTC use.

[Wierd Logic]

Squirell takes 5-htp every day anyway, just because he likes it! He knew claims of it potentiating MDMA were at the very least overblown, but it really does help with a comedown...

[Micklemouse]

Has Squirrel noted any differences in his MDMA experiences from daily dosing with 5-htp? A Certain Mouse has found that pre-loading can lead to a messier & less memorable (i.e. more blank spots) & less enjoyable night, but nothing he could call potentiation. Others on the other hand absolutely swear by pre-loading, so there seems to be a great individual difference on this method. His experiences of pre-loading have only stretched to the day or 2 before, so was curious as to whether longer term pre-loading might alleviate some of the negative effects.

[Wierd Logic]

Originally Posted by Micklemouse

Has Squirrel noted any differences in his MDMA experiences from daily dosing with 5-htp? A Certain Mouse has found that pre-loading can lead to a messier & less memorable (i.e. more blank spots) & less enjoyable night, but nothing he could call potentiation. Others on the other hand absolutely swear by pre-loading, so there seems to be a great individual difference on this method. His experiences of pre-loading have only stretched to the day or 2 before, so was curious as to whether longer term pre-loading might alleviate some of the negative effects.

Its very hard to say, which probably means there isn't a massively different effect he also hasn't had many MDMA sessions since regularly taking 5-htp. Its true that his last one, which took place whilst he had been 5htp-ing for perhaps three weeks was very enjoyable indeed - more so than is average nowadays; but he can't really offer an conclusive decision.

[Readux]

SWIM has also tried pre loading on 5-HTP a week before new years. He took 200mg everyday for five days before dropping the e. The onset isn't noticeably different and the peak is still the same. What was different was that he does have more gaps in memory of the night and it was actually a little bumpier, like the peaks were separated. Swim would peak then baseline then peak etcetera. The trip lasted the same time and there was no crash days after which was nice.

SWIM believes that the mdma can only release so much serotonin at a time. Even if there was double the amount, the axons can only give out so much. And when the mdma is used up, the brain has left over serotonin instead of none, which explains that there was no crash. We'll thats SWIMS guess. So overall swim would take 5-htp day after the trip instead of before.

[KyleM]

It's just not as simple as having a given amount of serotonin and taking MDMA and it all is released. Yes 5-HTP can significantly increase sertotonin levels, making more available for MDMA to release, creating potential for an intense ecstasy roll. There are other factors to look into. Depleted serotonin is not the only cause of MDMA tolerance, it's only one. Targeting just that one form of tolerance may not be the answer for everyone.

The most accepted theory on how MDMA releases serotonin is that it binds to a serotonin reuptake transporter (SERT), reverses it, drawing serotonin out of the neuron into the synapse, through the SERT. Then that released serotonin has to have available receptors. This is just the beginning. Knowing this, that would indicate that someone would need a significant availablity of MDMA, SERT, serotonin, and receptors. So flooding the brain with a bunch of 5-HTP before taking ecstasy might not be the answer for everyone, though it can definitely be the answer for some. It would be wrong to just flat out say that preloading with 5-HTP doesn't work, it just doesn't work for everyone. If it does work then it's plausible that low serotonin was the issue or one of the issues. If not, tolerance should be addressed in another way.

[Greenport]

Guys, this is a potentially bad idea! A quick trip to the wiki lists that 5-HTP taken in combination with MDMA or similar drugs may cause acute serotonin syndrome, and even if it doesn't there is a reference that taking it in combination with BZP/TMFPP can raise this risk - which is important because a lot of the rolls going around this country lately have been adulterated with BZP/TMFPP.

Be careful and do some homework ahead of time to keep yourself safe. The last thing we need are deaths or brain damage linked in any way to MDMA!

SwiM's giraffe has always heard that 5-HTP and similar supplements can help with the crash the day after though.

[Micklemouse]

Originally Posted by Greenport

Guys, this is a potentially bad idea! A quick trip to the wiki lists that 5-HTP taken in combination with MDMA or similar drugs may cause acute serotonin syndrome, and even if it doesn't there is a reference that taking it in combination with BZP/TMFPP can raise this risk - which is important because a lot of the rolls going around this country lately have been adulterated with BZP/TMFPP.

Please provide text & a link to back this claim up. The wiki page on Serotonin Syndrome lists a number of substances which alone or in combination have been linked to Serotonin Syndrome, but that does not mean that they will necessarily all have that effect or all be dangerous in combination. I have not been able to find any cases or reports of MDMA & 5-htp alone causing serotonin syndrome. I have found reports of instances of combination of SSRI's, MDMA & 5-htp that would appear to have triggered a SS response (http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=12878). Possible concern about precursors has been raised in this study, although the abstract is vague stating only that Serotonin precursors also influence the course of serotonin syndrome when used with ecstasy. but not stating how (if anyone can up a copy of this study to the archive I would be very grateful!) -

[top] Abstract

Growth of the antidepressant market and widespread use of the illicit drug ecstasy (methylenedioxymethamphetamine; MDMA) creates a need to delineate the potential harms associated with the concomitant use of ecstasy and serotonergic pharmaceutical drugs. One such harm is serotonin syndrome. The study aimed to synthesize the risk of serotonin syndrome associated with the concomitant use of ecstasy and other serotonergic substances in a clinically relevant hierarchy for psychiatrists and other medical practitioners. An extensive online database search was carried out of the literature on serotonin syndrome, in relation to illicit drugs and simultaneous use of other substances. Numerous licit and illicit substances implicated in serotonin syndrome, when used with ecstasy, have potential for increased toxicity and are presented in a resulting hierarchy of risk. Substances that inhibit serotonin re-uptake are less likely to lead to life-threatening elevations in serotonin when used with ecstasy. High doses or repeated use of stimulants such as methamphetamine and cocaine with ecstasy increase the risk of serotonin syndrome; as does the use of pharmaceutical amphetamine and ecstasy. Serotonin precursors also influence the course of serotonin syndrome when used with ecstasy. Substances that inhibit monoamine oxidase are most likely to lead to serious increases in serotonin when used with ecstasy. Findings highlight the importance of screening for the use of ecstasy and other serotonergic substances when prescribing antidepressant drugs.

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a780538207~db=all - If not taking a ridiculous amount of either MDMA or 5-htp, & with no other serotonergens being taken, this should be a safe combination.

[Readux]

yes what SWIG is saying is completely true, never take 5-htp near the time of a roll, and obviously taking it while rolling is just plain stupid. Keep safe and take at least 2 hours before taking the mdma to prevent any complications. 5-htp takes roughly one hour to turn into serotonin.

[magicmik]

This last few months swim has been feeling pretty down. Swim purchased 5 htp (50mg) pills and was using them (2-a day) for about 3-weeks. Swim depression was fully lifted, negative (cycling) thoughts had dissapeared. Swim dropped 150 mg of MDMA (followed by a 100 mg top up) after a 6-week break and the effects we not very strong.

Swim agrees with the others that say the effects are reduced.

Swim is not a true chemist like some here. But swims highest highs from MDMA are when swim is already feeling low, like in depression or at work. Swim thinks MDMA is v subjective to how happy you already feel.