Are you clean if you . . .???

[GutterPhenomenon69]

Do you think, if somebody is on methadone but has an accident or somethhing and are in excrusiating pain, would u concider it relapse if you take pain meds in the hospital while you are in there? Also do you concider being on methadone mait. being clean if u dont use? just taking methadone. what do u guys think about that.

[MEKONE]

Originally Posted by GutterPhenomenon69

Do you think, if somebody is on methadone but has an accident or somethhing and are in excrusiating pain, would u concider it relapse if you take pain meds in the hospital while you are in there?

No,in SWIM's oppinion "Relaps" is just that.Going to the Dr. and getting something to help pain(Real Pain)just for the time one is there is not a "Relapse".Although it CAN lead to one.

Originally Posted by GutterPhenomenon69

Also do you concider being on methadone mait. being clean if u dont use? just taking methadone. what do u guys think about that.

Being "Clean" in SWIM's oppinion would be free from all substances including Methadone.Meth in itself can be a bitch to kick.

[chillinwill]

See this question can be interpreted differently by each person and that is one reason why Red Rock dislikes groups such as NA or AA. Anyways though, in his opinion, if one has to go to the hospital because of a series accident such as a car wreak, major surgery, etc then it is not a relapse to be treated with narcotics. On the other hand, if a person is just going to different doctors and complaining about their back or leg hurting in order to get pain killers such as hydrocodone then Red Rock would consider that a relapse.

As for being on methadone, Red Rock thinks that one is not fully clean while on it. Although they are no longer using their drug of choice and it has probably changed their lifestyle for the better by eliminating the criminal and shady aspect of it as well not having to be dishonest, they are still not clean. Methadone produces strong narcotic effects and is still triggering and occupying the opiate receptors in the brain. Even if someone was on buprenorphine, Red Rock would still not consider them totally clean. This is all a personal opinion though and many, many people have benefited greatly from being put on methadone or buprenorphine.

[Junket]

Originally Posted by chillinwill

if one has to go to the hospital because of a series accident such as a car wreak, major surgery, etc then it is not a relapse to be treated with narcotics.

Agreed. I'd say if you are a recovering opiate addict and you take meds for actual pain then you aren't clean, but you are sober.

The only reason I would say you aren't completely clean is because I believe if an addict is in a doctors office and the doc says "I'm going to prescribe you _________ opiate", then deep down in that addict, there is going to be a sense of relief. A happiness brought from the pill, in an indirect or direct way.

I think that makes sense?

Maybe not

[Gappa]

this is a grey area. If one is clean and does in fact take any form of opiate into their system that "trigger" is activated. How deep the rabbit hole goes from there depends. SWIus that have been there know that zipper-lipped mentality that kicks in once the opi's hit the brain and how nuts it can get. And SWIY would still have to deal with the fucked up withdrawals, of which were bad enough for SWIM not to want an opiate within 100 feet of any orfice.

[AquafinaOrbit]

In Swims opinion no you are not "clean" if using methadone, but you are not relapsing either as you are not using it for addiction purposes but out of need from severe pain. I know a close family member on methadone and it mentally has no apparent effects on them, which the Dr claims its because the chemicals are targeting the pain not the usual receptors. So no I wouldn't consider them clean but I wouldn't think of them as a druggie either. (They also managed to quite Oxy after two years of daily use cold turkey so certainly not typical drug use IMO)

[Gappa]

I cannot believe anyone could use OXY for 2 years and not have any after-effects or WD's. Physiologically it is not possible to not experience some form or another

[Dickon]

Gutter,

of the two questions you ask, one is simple to answer, the other hard. It is perfectly acceptable to use opiate pain-killers as and when the need arises, so long as that need is genuine. Even in NA, which has perhaps the strictest standard of being clean, this is acceptable. However some people, especially NA members who have not long quit drugs, will avoid opiates at almost all cost. It is treacherous terrain, as the temptation to take a little bit more than you need will be there. It requires good judgment, and rigourous self-honesty.

As far as the methadone goes, this question will arouse controversy. At the risk of attracting some bad reputation I shall say straight out that, as far as I am concerned, being on methadone or buprenorphine (subutex, suboxone) or DFs or any other kind of maintenance therapy does not constitute being clean. One reason for this is that my experience bears this out. This being personal experience (that of my cat) and the experience of observing others. My behaviour and that of others on methadone has always been different. When I talk to people on methadone they always talk in that junky way, and look at me with what Burroughs describes so well as "dead fish eyes"; I sense a vast unbridgeable gulf, an emotional disconnect, a lack of effect, in spite of no necessary lack of rationality. The trouble is, for me at least, when my cat was on methadone, I'd think he was the exception to this rule. But honestly, me clean is very different to my cat on methadone; you could almost say we belonged to two different species!

Another argument I thought of the other day, and have posted before, is the question of heroin (or diamorphine as it's usually called) maintenance. This is available to some in the UK and I cannot see on what grounds you'd differentiate heroin maintenance from methadone maintenance, in terms of saying in the one case one is clean and in the other one is not. If you were to say that it was the maintenance itself that constituted being clean, then that's at least a consistent point of view, but one I'd find unmaintainable. Again I am in no way saying methadone (or heroin) maintenance can't improve your quality of life, but quality of life and being clean are not commensurate.

Methadone protagonists often put forward the idea that some class of users/addicts have a naturally low endorphin level and that supplementing this with opiates/opioids redresses the balances, and brings them to a normal state. The analogy often used is with diabetics and insulin. Although I can accept, and indeed think it likely, that a certain class of people do have a low level of naturally occurring opiates, I do not think methadone maintenance redresses this balance. If it does so in some limited sense it does so at the expense of a vast array of "side effects", i.e. personality changes. Also, there is at least one study (I can't quote chapter and verse) that shows people on methadone maintenance therapy are more susceptible to pain than normal individuals. This would not be true if the hypothesis were valid.

Furthermore, I believe that people with low endorphin levels can stimulate production of endorphins fairly simply using other means. I found yoga, martial arts (in which experiencing some pain seems to raise one's pain threshold), exercise in general combined with eating well and a good social life solved my low endorphin problem. I think it may take quite some time to achieve a normalisation of endorphin levels especially after a withdrawal, but I have yet to see someone two years off all drugs who eats well, exercises regularly, and has a good social network complain of low endorphin levels. That is not to say that such a person does not exist.

I am not against maintenance therapy, and it can be incredibly useful for certain people. Perhaps if underlying mental health issues exist, it may be the optimal treatment. However, I'd strongly encourage anyone on maintenance who has the courage and wherewithal, to consider giving quitting a try, unless to do so will be too destabilising.

I understand some of the above views may be controversial, and I apologise if I've offended anyone.

D

Reputation Comments on this post:

Very insightful and thoughtful post, as many of yours are.

[AquafinaOrbit]

Originally Posted by Gappa

I cannot believe anyone could use OXY for 2 years and not have any after-effects or WD's. Physiologically it is not possible to not experience some form or another

Don't blame you are not trusting a random source on the net but it happened. She was switched from Oxy to Morphine due to Oxys no longer relieving pain and there were no side effects.

[Jasim]

As long as someone is taking medication in the way it is prescribed, in a legal way, then they are clean. But as soon as swiy takes just a little more, or mixes it with something to increase the effect, that's not staying clean, imho.

Reputation Comments on this post:

short and straight to answer, good response

[GutterPhenomenon69]

Originally Posted by Jasim

As long as someone is taking medication in the way it is prescribed, in a legal way, then they are clean. But as soon as swiy takes just a little more, or mixes it with something to increase the effect, that's not staying clean, imho.

on that one point i think i disagree abit. Some ppl are perscribed massive amounts of pain meds a day. enough for it to nock down a large horse. so if your are percribed,, say, 300mg of oxycodone a day, for example, which many people are for severe pain, if you just take the 300mg a day instead of say, 350mg of it you are clean? that doesnt make sence because you could still be getting realy high even tho thats the dose that was perscribed

[GutterPhenomenon69]

You are right. Many ppl do not get high on thier dose of pain pills, but many do. even if one is in extreme pain, when they take opiods they will still feel the euphoria. But if one was addicted to opioid type substances, even if one was taking their script as perscribed, they are still taking opiods so they are not clean in swims mind anyways. if one were never addicted and take thier pain meds as perscribed then their not an addict although they may be dependent on them. but if one were to be addicted previously to opiods, they get clean then go to a doc. and get pain pills and then still take them as perscribed then they are NOT clean. they that is swim mind IS a relapce. swim doesn't personaly like the term dirty/clean. swim preferes using/not using.

[Jasim]

Originally Posted by GutterPhenomenon69

on that one point i think i disagree abit. Some ppl are perscribed massive amounts of pain meds a day. enough for it to nock down a large horse. so if your are percribed,, say, 300mg of oxycodone a day, for example, which many people are for severe pain, if you just take the 300mg a day instead of say, 350mg of it you are clean? that doesnt make sence because you could still be getting realy high even tho thats the dose that was perscribed

It's a matter of how they are obtained and the reason. If one fakes or even 'plays up' an injury or illness in order to obtain psychoactive pharmaceuticals, Or if the reason for obtaining the drugs is not a legitimate medical reason, then I agree.
And then we get into some slippery semantics. What constitutes a legitimate medical reason? And what about patients who seek treatment for symptoms that are a result of withdrawal or sensitization due to illicit drug use?

[GutterPhenomenon69]

Swim is refering to ppl who are in real legit. pain. obviously anybody can make up pain to get narcotics, but this isn't what the tread is refering to now. I know for swims cat, the pussycat is in pain. and today at swims relapes prev. class the teach told swims cat that he should get on percocet for pain so she feels that its not a relapce but swim does. although it seems weird that a teacher for relapce p. would tell swims cat to take opiods. the teach wants him to take opi. and the student dont want to. feels like it should be the other way around

[dyingtomorrow]

Many posters already touched on this, but I agree with the differentiation of people taking the drugs to feel "normal" as opposed to those who take them with the intention of feeling "high." I suppose the markers are how they are used, and with what intention they are used. Someone taking them exactly as prescribed, and never more, and who achieves a homeostasis where they are in a normal state of mind minus the pain, is not a drug addict. Someone who is chasing the euphoric opiate feeling is a drug addict; and it starts when you either outright decide you want to get high on opiates, or become deceitful either inside or with your doctor. Some people are lucky and just don't like opiates or take to them well, and can use them to achieve normalcy while despising them; for most others I would say, once you get to liking them too much, eventually they will creep up inside you and you will become an "addict" who takes opiates to get high.

While there is nothing wrong with people on methadone or suboxone maintenance (the later being SWIM, despite hating it so), they are not clean. Dickon described it perfectly in his post - there is still that opiate chasm (of varying width depending on the opiate) between themselves and others, and life.

[Jasim]

Swim suffers from chronic pain. Swim has also had a history of (strong) opiate abuse. Swim does use painkillers including opiates, but swim also does a variety of other things to help reduce swims pain. Such as diet, physical therapy, meditation, and others.

I think that if swim were to only use the painkillers to relieve pain and use them according to label, and swim were to continue to seek alternative ways to reduce pain, then swim would be clean. I believe this even though swim has a past with heroin use and other opiate abuse and has sought out opiates by a variety of means for recreational use.

Now some of swims pain may be due to pain-receptor sensitization due to past opiate use, or whatever, but swims pain is legitimate. No matter the reason for swim having pain, Swim is IN PAIN! I think that anyone would suffered like swim every single day would seek any means necessary to relieve that suffering.

This is not just for pain, but very high levels of anxiety could also be a reason some people abuse alcohol, benzos, and marijuana. Obviously I'm not arguing that kind of abuse is staying clean, but using meds in a legal way shouldn't be considered 'not being clean' just because of a past history.

[GutterPhenomenon69]

The topic is if you are in legit pain. and not refering to those who make up pain to get pills. What SWIM is meaning is, when you have had opioid addiction in the past, and then use opiods after getting clean, then your obviously NOT CLEAN because you are using the SAME thing that you were addicted to, wether or not you get HIGH' or just pain releif.. now dif. scenerio. If you use your pain meds to get out of pain then your not ADDICTED tho u may be Dependent. BUT... i you have, in the past, taken opiods for the high, even tho u may be in legit. pain, then you are addicted. i prefer those words as opposed to CLEAN/Dirty. Those words are for ppl who had a past of addiction and got clean and continue to use. Swims case was he had an legitamate accident got on the pain meds, got addicted to the euphoria. now swim is on, methadone clinicz. now if swm was going to use pain meds for pain how in the world would he be clean. he might neeed them for pain but he is not CLEAN 4 sure.

[GutterPhenomenon69]

yes, butr if one is one methadone wont the meth. block out the pain meds? anyways so how would they work then?? Also now the methadone does work for pain infact a bunch of pain m. docs will rx it for severe/moderate pain aswell..

[Gappa]

This is a very touchy subject. Still, anyone taking any form of opiate is still disrupting their brain's pain/pleasure/reward dopamine/seratonin systems. Why do they use it for pain? Because it keeps SWIyou from being able to FEEL. I do agree anyone needing meds for pain it is good the drugs are there, but imagine this for one moment.... All of you legally prescribed opetic drugs for pain. Now a new drug comes out! One that kills pain ENTIRELY but with no euphoria or side effects. WHO WOULD SWITCH???

[Jasim]

Simply being without pain would make swim very euphoric, lol.