Do DXM and Opiates behave the same way??

[Gappa]

SWIM is on day 15 of his own personal hell coming off suboxone/methadone SWIM has been totally clean for 15 days now but along with his kids started to get a cold. He took a cup of Robotussin earlier and felt the WD's go away almost completely. Is this something swim should be concerned about?

[AvidFan]

Only if SWIY keeps taking it longer term.

Seems like the WD then cold/flu a few days/weeks later is a common theme - WD seems to shoot the immune system to hell. Another reason X is not going back, he rather likes being well when everyone around him is full of colds - didn't have a cold for a long, long time until this LAST WD.

SWIGappa will get through it - X has, Dr D did, just keep going and if you can't get as much rest as possible

[rokman nash]

Do whatever it takes to get through the day(safely of course).Swiy is a the point where my friend Really started to feel better(at least for short periods).He didn't have to contend w/the flu,but swiy is so close.Once he gets past this roadblock,it will get much better.The fight is between the ears at this point.DXM certainly can help with W/D's,try to use sparingly,or another (masking) problem could crop up.

Hope swiy feels better

[Gappa]

SWIM feels good today. Good not great. The insomnia is the worst effect of WD IMO. SWIM can tolerate shakin and sweating but the insomnia just keeps going and going. SWIM got his clonidene refilled today, SWIM uses it for his blood pressure but it does have a slight/moderate sedating effect at slightly higher doses and makes sleep a lot easier. Oh yeah and no matter how much SWIanyone takes it isn't habit forming.

[rokman nash]

Can swim get ahold of some klonopin or diaz? Insomnia was my friends biggest problem also,once he had something to help the sleep problem it seemed the fight was partly won.Even Nyquil, or DXM seemed to help my friend get a few hours sleep.Hope this helps.

[Gappa]

SWIM is going to see his doc this morning, k-pins are on the menu SWIM thinks. SWIM got 12 hours [much needed] by just using the clonidene but feels a little slow this morning. SWIMs gurl says the dark circles under SWIMs eyes are gone. SWIM needs to be careful with all controlled substances, like make his gurl only give him the two allowed for the day/night. But SWIM does believe the wd's are pretty much over. SWIM doesn't have the urge to take 4 hot showers a day anymore. Gappa is at day 16/17 from a kick off everything including Nicotene. So being it's not only opiates there may be some other "strange" effects in the mix. Kickin Nicotene is usually hard only at the first week after that one usually doesn't notice much x-cept maybe a few passing cravings.

Gappa added 319 Minutes and 5 Seconds later...

K-pins are the ticket for the extreme insomnia/anxiety. Being a C-IV they are right there with Ambien and Lunesta. SWIM does not want any C II or C III stuff anymore C II's are waayyy to "seductive". If it is just to help with sleep so SWIM can function then C IV is cool.
SWIM has seen some Valium/Xanax Benzo nightmare shit on here. One dude was WD from benzos and couldn't even straighten his toes out and kept twitching his neck. SCARY SHIT

[Dickon]

My two cents worth : Don't take benzos or other sleeping pills, and avoid the DXM. If you have got to 15/16 days off opiates, you should be sleeping at least a bit. The ultimate aim should be to establish a natural sleep pattern, and for that the quickest way is to let your body "figure it out". The quality of sleep with benzos is worse than natural sleep, and there will be hangover effects, and lowered inhibitions which might lead to relapse. Furthermore there will be the usual addict desire to increase the dose. As far as addiction to benzos is concerned, it will not happen quickly, at least in the context of a w/d. If you do decide to use them might I suggest that you set yourself a deadline to stop, say a week or at most ten days. For one thing, there is a law of diminishing returns in that sleeping pills are only effective for a short time, and stopping them will may lead to rebound insomnia, so you might well be setting yourself up for sleepless night later. The gain is dubious at best.

As for DXM, and here others may well say I'm being a lunatic or anal or simply over-zealous is that DXM is, if not an actual sigma-receptor agonist, so closely related to one that it might play with your head. The abatement of w.d. symptoms you experienced leads me to believe that it is doing something to the opiate receptors. I don't know if you know anything about stereochemistry (essentially dealing with left-handed and right-handed molecules) but DXM is an optical isomer to a true opiate; let's call it LVM (DX stands for dextro, right-handed, and I'm using LV here to stand for laevo, left-handed). I know that if my cat had taken loperamide (imodium) during his detox it would have fucked him up mentally. This is an opiate that acts on the gut but does not cross the brain-blood barrier in normal circumstances.

Really, using or not using these kind of things is a matter of how you view them. It is easier, especially if you are moving in NA circles, to avoid all such drugs, unless there is a significant pay-off. Use NSAIs or Paracetamol (aka Acetaminophen/APAP) for colds/flu symptoms, and kaolin mixture for the runs, and chamomile tea + Valerian root for sleep. That way you will sleep easily (lol) knowing you are at absolutely no risk of developing another addiction, and there will be no muttering about relapse among the NA hard-line.

By the way a big slap for nearly going over -- silly boy -- but a huge pat on the back for getting clean again. You're doing really well Gappa, and let's have no more "youthful indiscretions". You might not be so lucky next time.

Happy new year

Dickon [stateside!]

[Gappa]

Very familiar with optical sterochemistry and how molecules are set up with their chiral rings on opposing ends. SWIM taught himself organic chemistry many years ago... Don't ask why....
Dr D.. Input cherished as always. SWIM will only use Klonipin as a LAST resort. 3-4 days without any rest is about the norm for SWIM. SWIM starts to get horrible dark circles and his wife gets upset cause she gets no rest when SWIM dosen't sleep. SWIM has had pretty good luck just using clonidene which is his normal blood pressure med anyway. Day 16 now and feel pretty good. NA/AA are good for SWIM he is going to a meeting tonight. SWIM has to function D. All it takes is 1 night with no rest and SWIM cannot work the next day. SWIMs job can be mentally challenging and has to be on point when needed. Not making excuses to have to take something but if needed it's nice to have IYKWIM. SWIM has used Immodium AD a FEW times on his kick but never noticed any trouble.. if it don't reach the brain it usually shouldn't cause any trouble. It's the CII and illegal stuff even some CIII that gets SWIM into trouble. DXM caused no problem but would not reccommend in taking it more than ONE time, no double dosing! It did cause sort of a strange hangover...

[AvidFan]

Patient X is still not getting much sleep, but he has never been a good sleeper. Probably there are still some after effects/PAWS contributing, and he did use benzos once over Christmas, but that was an exception.

It's funny but he seems to get by on virtually one night's sleep a week - it's not waking early that's the problem, it's just getting to sleep at all - but he doesn't help himself playing this sodding role playing video game until God forsaken hours of the morning and going to bed with mutants and robotrons swimming around in his brain But he deserves to let himself loose for once!

Hope SWIgappa can get the sleep sorted soon - it really is a nightmare (or if only enough sleep would come to actually have one!). If Roc's reading this, then X would imagine SWIgappa and Patient X could be seeing balloon strings coming out of people's heads soon (bit of a Stephen King insomnia in-joke)

Good luck!

[Gappa]

SWIM has done everything.. even tried all those zen relaxation techniques... He knows his cat is exhausted but knows not getting his rest could be even more dangerous. SWIM would rather take a pair of clonidene or even a K-pin before resorting to doing something stupid like downing a few beers and popping a few diphenhydramine like in the old days..

Gappa added 8 Minutes and 0 Seconds later...

A little history on SWIMs medical tip. Family history of anxiety/depression/sleep disorders.
Currently only prescribed Welbutrin/clonidene/Klonipin and not taking anything but the welbutrin and clonidene. BTW SWIMs blood pressure was great today according to the doc, it is normally borderline high.

[Herbal Healer 019]

DXM is a synthetic analogue of codeine FYI

[Gappa]

Synthetic analogue?? Meaning chemically similar or tailored after the codeine mole??? If it were that good it would be scheduled....
Here in the US they "Schedule" ie.. Sch I or CI are illegal, with no medical uses, coke meth, LSD,H, PCP etc etc. CII are your 1st stage of "legal" goodies OXY,morphene,adderall etc etc CIII are your Steroids and other "lesser" painkillers.. Correct me if I am wrong but SWIM believes barbituates ie Phenobarb and high order benzos are sorted in to this category. And finally C IV which are low order sleep aids ie Ambien, Lunesta, and low order benzos.
The rest are not "controlled" per say but with a docs scrip one can obtain an endless supply. Even the damn Pseudoephedrine shit is classified now. SWIY dosn't require a scrip but one could only buy 2 a day. Damn cookers..lol

[rokman nash]

SWigappa if your friend can get to sleep w/k-pinz DO-IT. From my friends perspective this is one of/if not the most destructive parts of w/d's (lack of sleep).What my friend has tried to do is rotate kp's,nyquil,dxm,somas,whatever it takes to get a couple hours of sleep.

Hope you can make it through bro

[Herbal Healer 019]

Originally Posted by Gappa

Synthetic analogue?? Meaning chemically similar or tailored after the codeine mole??? If it were that good it would be scheduled....
Here in the US they "Schedule" ie..

SWIM 2 is in the US....& yes DXM is a synthetic analogue of Codeine tho it supposedly has less analgesic properties
Source: http://www.midwesttox.org/2006presen...anCases_22.pdf

quote

• Synthetic analogue of codeine
• Classified as non-narcotic...(debatable in my opinion)
• Used for its antitussive effects (just like codeine)

/quote

[Dickon]

According to discriminative stimulus properties of dextromethorphan in rats (Gavend M, Mallaret M, Dematteis M, Baragatti G.) [abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8746072?dopt=Abstract] it seems DXM does operate on the sigma-opiate receptors but not the mu- or kappa- receptors. I have to confess to what philosophers call "lucky knowledge" posting above as I although I did mention sigma-receptors I meant to say mu-receptors, or maybe my subconscious mind knows more than I do!

I've expounded my kooky theory about the REM-purge elsewhere, but I'll reiterate it: I believe there is a phase of praeternaturally vivid dreams that is a part of reacquiring a normal sleep pattern after/during a withdrawal. Taking sleeping pills might interfere with this purge and prolong normalization of sleep routine. I stress this is just a hunch, and I'd add this to the usual rebound insomnia issue that is not directly w.d.-related. I can see the rationale of the odd night of benzo-induced sleep, especially if one is all but crying with exhaustion, but "sleep gravity" (yup it's Dr D's kooky theory night!) will always win through if you let it. [Theory of sleep gravity: diminishing w.d. symptoms + increasing sleep deprivation ---(eventually)---> sleep. Imagine piling sacks of potatoes onto a weak table. Gravity will prevail and the table collapse eventually]

I'm just saying that I'm talking not from a moral perspective, simply with your self-interest at heart! The fact is, in the grand scheme of things, it's not likely to make a huge amount of difference what you do, as long as you aren't stupid about it. w.d. is a get through any-which-way-but-use challenge, not a figure skate, where you are marked for the smile on your face as you suffer!

If it feels right, chances are it is. If you are justifying and lying to yourself with a sneaky addict agenda, it's wrong. Search your feelings young Skywalker. I think you're doing great.

Dickon

[PsychoActivist]

When SWIM came off of Benzo's and alcohol the only thing that helped him sleep was Diphenhydramine. He used to take 50-100 mg's every night. Only problem with that is he has been clean clean of alcohol and benzos (with occasional relapse - one time uses) for 2 years now and he still has to take the Diphenhydramine every night. Though it may be healthier, it is still basically another addiction that SWIM cannot sleep without. He is the only person I have ever met who admitted addiction to..... Diphenhydramine?

Anyway. Props on making it as far as you have. Keep it up.
Hope you feel better.

[chillinwill]

Originally Posted by PsychoActivist

When SWIM came off of Benzo's and alcohol the only thing that helped him sleep was Diphenhydramine. He used to take 50-100 mg's every night. Only problem with that is he has been clean clean of alcohol and benzos (with occasional relapse - one time uses) for 2 years now and he still has to take the Diphenhydramine every night. Though it may be healthier, it is still basically another addiction that SWIM cannot sleep without. He is the only person I have ever met who admitted addiction to..... Diphenhydramine?

Anyway. Props on making it as far as you have. Keep it up.
Hope you feel better.

Red Rock takes Diphenhydramine as well every night for sleep and has been for about 6 months now. He feels like if he doesn't take it, it takes forever to fall asleep (if he does fall asleep)

[Gappa]

SWIM has/used to take 8-9 Diphenhydramine tabs a night EVERY night. SWIM has a very serious sleep disorder for MANY MANY years now only exaggerated by the detox and WD from the opiates.
The way SWIM sees it is a legit medical condition similar to a heart condition or diabetes. And will only use if necessary, the goal being to completely drug free. SWIM knows he may have to take blood pressure and anti-depressants for life and accepts this.
When swim was in the hospital they told him that Tylenol PM or anything containing diphen is toxic to the liver in large amounts, and to get away from it if possible..

Gappa added 4 Minutes and 1 Seconds later...

one thing doc.. and all.. going on day 17 and SWIM feels good... his face IS marked with a smile and is almost happy, even got to laugh a little. Don't feel as "delicate" as I did. SWIM will chime in he firmly believes in AA/NA and has been faithfully going. It helps somehow but haven't quite got why yet.

[Richard_smoker]

hell yea Gappa!!!! CONGRATS!

somehow i either forgot about your quit or didn't subscribe to the thread or something! that's fucking GREAT NEWS! good job. -DICK


GAPPA, just saw your question about the DXM. This is a very valid question that someone should begin testing out for these situations. To answer your question with what i DO know, i'll say that prior to buprenorphine being readily available in the US, many many MANY people endorsed the idea of just stopping your DOC cold-turkey after one last day & night of partying and really doing everything you can to get the urge 'out of your system.' Beginning on the first day of turkey, i was advised to drink ~100mg of Delsym* syrup every hour until the withdrawal symptoms were gone.

AND, MY PIG TRIED THIS COLD-TURKEY/DESYM-DXM METHOD!! This was >2years ago, but it really did WORK! He managed to stay off opiates for about 3 weeks. But he had no support group, no one to talk about quitting and recovery to, and remained in denial about how bad his original problem was all the way up to the day he relapsed completely.

Based on DXM's pharmacology, I would NOT worry about taking small amounts of this drug for a few days or even 14 days for that matter. Even though the molecular shape of DXM was borrowed from opiate-cough-remedies, it isn't really active on the opiate receptors--at least not in the way WE think of opioid-receptor drugs. Its mechanism of action is actually more likely due to its NMDA-receptor-blocking effects...which if i remember correctly is just another way of saying that it activates the SIGMA receptors. Those 'sigma' receptors have never really been considered truly 'opiate' receptors, and if i remember correctly, there are still plenty of pharmacologists who simply refer to them as "SIGMA Receptors", not "Sigma Opiod Receptors." --i will look this up and report back when i'm sure about this statment.anyone who has 'tripped' on dxm knows how terrible cigarettes are while on DXM. There are some theories out there that DXM and other NMDA-blockers are effective at treating ALL addictive behaviors, including simply blindly continuing to engage in the same stupid patterns of behavior when it's obvious that a change might serve you better. Such is the strange self-awareness quality of DXM... this experience can be very healthy once in a while and certainly isn't very high on my list of 'dangerous' or 'addictive' compounds...then again, i'm not talking about going to the 4th or even 3rd plateau.

*Delsym is a time-released syrup VERY similar in taste, appearance, delayed effect to Tussinex. note that Delsym is the DXM-version of the Tussinex-patented time-released hydrocodone syrup.

[Gappa]

SWIM used his clonidene & 1mg of Klonipin before bed and 1mg K-pin+a warm cup of milk around 3am... SWIM has had 12 solid hours 10pm to 10am and feels energized and well rested. Swim will be working today so he will not take any sleep helpers 2nite if possible.
Taking as the doctor reccommended with no thought or desire to ABUSE is actually a godsend for swim.