Comparing psychadelics.

[1108]

Hi,

First of all, where do threads like this one belong? It is not about one drug, but many.

Swim has enough experience with mushrooms and lsd to know how they differ (at low dosages at least) and would like to know how the others fit in there.

From what SWIM reads, it seems that mescaline is farther from both shrooms and lsd than they are from eachother, and DMT is somewhat inbetween lsd and mushrooms, leaning toward the mushroom side. 2c-b, 2c-i and 2c-e sound very close to eachother. This group appears to be about as far from mescaline as lsd is from mushrooms.

This is all vague and rough, but after all apples are "closer" to oranges than they are to tomatoes.

Does this sound at all accurate to those experienced with these?

[Songcycle67]

I'd say that this topic would go more smoothly in either The Euphoric Body or The Euphoric Mind sub-forums as there are many people in those groups that dabble in a bit of everything.


SWIM can tell you that mescaline is *different* than both mushrooms and LSD; as a matter of fact at times it seems as if mescaline is a rather good combination of the two at once. On an average dose, subjectively speaking, one would expect the hallmarks of all the well-known psychedelics: brightening of colors, warmth or "buzz" in the body, and general space and time distortions. The visuals to most are more precise and geometrical than LSD, but they do have the same sort of "digital" flare about them. Most of the focus during a mescaline trip is on the self and there isn't nearly as much transformation of the outer world as one experiences on LSD and especially mushrooms on similar doses. One definite difference is that mescaline, being a phenethylamine, is sort of a speedier drug.

2c-b, 2c-i, and 2-c-e are all quite different from the reports SWIM has gathered. 2c-b and 2c-i being the most visual (almost to the point of exhaustion in 2c-i's case), while 2c-e fits more into the euphoric ecstasy sort of category.

Aside from pharmacology, none of them are similar enough to make comparisons beyond the very basic hallucinogenic characteristics shared by most drugs under the psychedelic category.

[1108]

I feel kinda silly not thinking to put it in the "euphoric mind" place. Since cross posting is a no no, I'd have to ask a mod to move it. Correct?

I realize that 2c-i, 2c-e, and 2c-b are not all the same drug, but your post seems to imply that they are not more similar to each other than say mescaline, which is new to me.

[crackcityrocker]

DMT is generally considered more intense than mushrooms or LSD, although its really just a completely different kind of trip (swim is assuming swiy is talking about smoked DMT). even on sub-breakthrough doses, its hard to compare to anything else. swim has always felt that on the comedown its much easier to string coherent thoughts together than on most other psychedelics. during the trip itself, if swiy has taken a breakthrough dose (usually ~50-60mg) he will not feel that he is in his body. while people sometimes have out of body experiences on other drugs, this is the whole point of smoked DMT.

[1108]

Well, if SWIY takes 50-60mg of LSD I bet SWIY would change his tune :P. DMT is only regarded as "more intense" because the average DMT trip is more intense than the average LSD trip presumably because 1) it's cheap enough to get really intense doses and 2) they can deal with 'breaking through' for 5 minutes, but not 10 hours.

I was interested in comparing the different psychadelics at a similar 'intensity'. Maybe use as a benchmark "the maximum dose at which you could interact with people"; borderline between ++ and +++ in Shulgin's terms. Oral DMT with a MAOI would seem to be more directly comparable, but I would expect that the effects would be the same (just shorter lived) if an equivalent dose was smoked.

[TMM]

Originally Posted by 1108

Well, if SWIY takes 50-60mg of LSD I bet SWIY would change his tune :P. DMT is only regarded as "more intense" because the average DMT trip is more intense than the average LSD trip presumably because 1) it's cheap enough to get really intense doses and 2) they can deal with 'breaking through' for 5 minutes, but not 10 hours.

I'm fairly sure 50mg of LSD would be lethal, lol. 3-5mg is probably more realistic.

EDIT: Even so, that's an obscene amount. Like eating 100g of dried mushrooms. Not useful for any sort of comparison.

[1108]

...DMT experiences are more reliably predictable.

Is that because the typical DMT experience is so intense that your set and setting are washed out?

I'm fairly sure 50mg of LSD would be lethal, lol. 3-5mg is probably more realistic.

EDIT: Even so, that's an obscene amount. Like eating 100g of dried mushrooms. Not useful for any sort of comparison.

50mg of LSD actually isn't lethal. On one of the other forums they're talking about "thumbprinting", which is when some crazy bastard sticks his thumb in LSD crystal and licks it off (~50mg). It is also claimed that people have eaten more than a gram and lived.

It is an obscene amount, but it is still useful for a mg to mg comparison.

If someone says "drug X is more intense than drug Y", it isn't all that clear what factors they're holding constant. In this case, it can't be weight of dosage, since 50mg LSD >> 50mg DMT. My next guess is that they're comparing average doses actually taken.

If you think about it in terms of 'drug effect space', the drugs are the directions of vectors and the dosages are the magnitudes. 30 degrees from north is not farther from the origin than 45 degrees from north is. It is all about how far you walk the line.

To SWIM, the most useful comparison is for a given magnitude of effects, since for a given situation, SWIY might want something psychadelic that, for example, is strong, but not so strong that he cant interact with people, and has to decide whether to take X dose of shrooms or Y dose of LSD. If one is comparing the 'average' dose of lsd to the 'average' dose of DMT, the plan may have to change from 'go on a hike with friends' to 'lie on the bed with a sitter'

Choosing between drugs at equal "intensity" is like choosing between apples and oranges. Choosing between drugs at their respective average doses is more like choosing between apples and bread; sure you can compare them but SWIY already said he was interested in fruit today (bread will have to wait for a different meal).

[TMM]

Originally Posted by 1108

Choosing between drugs at equal "intensity" is like choosing between apples and oranges. Choosing between drugs at their respective average doses is more like choosing between apples and bread; sure you can compare them but SWIY already said he was interested in fruit today (bread will have to wait for a different meal).

That's just a question of qualitative preference, though, isn't it? The fruit, I mean. Nothing to do with comparative intenisty. So when someone talks about a drug being more intense than another, it should be naturally assumed that they're referring to average doses.

[crackcityrocker]

Originally Posted by 1108

Well, if SWIY takes 50-60mg of LSD I bet SWIY would change his tune :P. DMT is only regarded as "more intense" because the average DMT trip is more intense than the average LSD trip presumably because 1) it's cheap enough to get really intense doses and 2) they can deal with 'breaking through' for 5 minutes, but not 10 hours.

I was interested in comparing the different psychadelics at a similar 'intensity'. Maybe use as a benchmark "the maximum dose at which you could interact with people"; borderline between ++ and +++ in Shulgin's terms. Oral DMT with a MAOI would seem to be more directly comparable, but I would expect that the effects would be the same (just shorter lived) if an equivalent dose was smoked.

understandable. swim was assuming more of an average dose of each drug. he has never done such large doses of LSD, so cant compare. as for the oral DMT swim thinks that often people use an MAOI such as syrian rue, as harmaline is psychoactive on its own and is prefered by some. so it depends on what kind of MAOI is used. sorry though as swim has no direct experience with this.

[Songcycle67]

SWIM would say that the main difference between DMT and the other "standards": LSD, Mushrooms, and Mescaline is that DMT experiences are more reliably predictable. Usually a person who has taken the drug enough knows what to expect from it each and every time--visually, mentally, and bodily. From SWIM's experiences it seems that outer and inner (subconscious) stimulii have very little affect on, and are not the primary focus of, the extremely visual nature of the DMT trip.

SWIM isn't suggesting that DMT gives one the same ride every time, but that the visual aesthetics and the general "environment" are the same for the most part whereas they are extremely varied during different LSD, Mescaline, and Psilocybin experiences.

[Jatelka]

This is moving to "Euphoric Mind"

Given that monkeys seem to be talking in terms of fruit:

LSD is like cherries, sweet, juicy, but always the potential for a sharp side (plus a stone in the middle, for the unwary). Far more variability than anything else the flamingo has tried

DMT is a bit like a chilli: Intense, short lived, and a little bit more predictable (in terms of burn)

Mushrooms? Meh! No fruit makes the flamingo quite so nauseous. Fermented pinapple? Just wrong

2-C's? Well she has only tried i and b: Not really like fruit at all, sort of sherbety/fizzy sweets!

[TMM]

And mescaline cacti are like grapefruit; absolutely vile but colourful and full of goodness.

[Songcycle67]

SWIM's not quite sure why DMT is so reliable in its effects, but while he is not a pharmacologist, he would assume that there is biochemically not as much of an influence on how the drug acts. That is to say that internal and external stimulii are not being incorporated into the experience. Now this is complete subjective guesswork here, so anyone feel free to correct. But DMT just doesn't seem to rely on internal/external stimulii to "fuel" the trip the way that LSD/Psilo/Mesc does. So whereas the way that you feel, what you're seeing/smelling/listening to/etc. play a huge role in determining how an LSD or Psilocin trip "look and feel;" in DMT's case the molecules just seem to sort of invade the brain and take the controls completely, disregarding any information from the brain concerning set and setting.

All speculation, though.

[1108]

That's just a question of qualitative preference, though, isn't it? The fruit, I mean. Nothing to do with comparative intenisty. So when someone talks about a drug being more intense than another, it should be naturally assumed that they're referring to average doses.

Well, if one wants accurate beliefs, it should be assumed that they are talking about what is most commonly talked about, which probably is average doses. "Comparitive intensity" only means what people take it to mean.

"Intensity" is not a property of the drug itself (like its molecular weight is). "Potency" (mg/kg for threshold dose, say) is a property of the drug and the physiology of the test subject. "Intensity", if defined to be "intensity at the average taken dose" is not only a property of the drug and the physiology of the test subject, but it also depends on the test subjects psychology, his economic status, and the legal status. It just seems to be such an ass backwards way of doing things because of all these complicated factors that go into deciding how much to take (not always sensible reasons either). It seems like a bit of mind projection fallacy to say "that drug is intense!" and not "SWIM takes enough of that drug so that the resulting experience is intense!". That is my only problem with defining the term that way, and why I think the term should be discarded. However, information theory doesn't have anything wrong with the any coding that gets the message across- just beware mind projection.

SWIM is interested in low level psychedelic experiences, and wants to know how DMT/others compare at that intensity. It makes perfect sense why DMT is more often used to "break through", but not so much sense why it is not often used in a more mellow fashion, and I suspect it has something to do with the mind projection fallacy ("but DMT is inherently too intense! SWIM can't take it before going to a concert!"). This is why the thread is about the difference at a given intensity.

Jatelka,

Thanks for moving the thread.

I'm having trouble getting a good understanding from the analogies given. My brain isn't setup to understand poetry at all.

The task of describing how the effects differ seems much more difficult than the task of describing how much they differ. The first task seems very impractical (when was the last time SWIY described psychedelics to someone before their first trip and had them reply after "It was exactly what SWIM expected"), but the second task seems completely doable, so that's all I'm really trying to figure out.