Injecting - Groin NewBie

[tourniquet]

okay, so if you read swims replies on neck injecting, swiys might notice she's somewhat a guru in there lol ...But, as chances are, swim got messed up by an own traitor vein, and now she needs some advice. some good strong explicit advice.
so, this night, earlier, swim was tryin to hit her fav, most-praised neck external jugular, that over the past 2 days got really badly fucked up due to some TINY misses (like 1 unit at a time). Tried for like an hour, phone ringing, money-guy waiting down in the parking for her to come the fuck down, and swim just couldn't shoot that motherfuckin vein. So, in a huuuge desperation, she went for the groin (a place that always has scared the shit out of her due to leg amputation, never had this issue on other places though lol). And done this with a very very fucked up smack, mixed with a lot of blood drained from underneath the skin from previous tries, and some of swiys might know, this makes the syringe badly clouded and foamy and all so can't see a thing. Anyways, swim went for the groin. And...taaadaaa! it worked out perfectly! With a dull needle, got it from first try! Smooth and beautifull, and the rush is very similar to neck. So, love it already.
Now....swim knows it was a simple matter of luck she didn't hit the artery there...So now SWIM tries to gather up as much information as possible on HOW TO AVOID that motherfucken artery, when while shooting in the groin, swieverybody knows might be good coz they can feel the pulse, therefor, sting where the artery is (or close, too close, to it).
Probably till any reply, swim will have done this several more times, as there is no other vein left that would also give a good rush, (and mean NONE, swim knows to "feel" veins under skin without seeing etc) would do except for this new found huge groin thing...
Please, swimmers, don't give the "don't do this" or "try some other place", swim is going for the groin definitely and only wants to do it as safe as possible and try to learn (at least some of it) NOT on self-experiements...

tourniquet added 1134 Minutes and 49 Seconds later...

Well thank you very much swimmers, for just viewing my thread and not replying at all. Let's just pretend you got an excuse, the groin being some gruesome place for IVers...but still.
Swim managed to get herself a diploma already in groin injecting technique, so...all help appreciated, be it even wishing luck in swiy's minds. Lol.

[RaverHippie]

Apologies, my raver friend has never injected anything, he just studies anatomy and physiology and offered health-based harm-reduction information on this knowledge. My knee-jerk response is of the "don't do it" variety like the neck injecting thread. I can't imagine it being much more than a placebo effect as far as a "better rush" no matter where it's injected. Though reading the thread prompted me to notice that my own groin vein pops out about 1/2 a cm above the surface of my skin normally so I can see why it would be a tempting target.

[tourniquet]

Lol swims doesn't pop out at all, but was tempting ever since she saw a desperate junkie turning his back, dropping his pants, and then turn with a very satisfied face within a minute ...Like, wow, that's some place to go!
Uhm, actually, your raver friend could be of very much use here on this topic, since he's into anatomy...coz thats what swim needs to know most, even if she already read anything and everything she could find on the topic in online anatomy ebooks...but needs some hints, some tips & tricks, swiy knows? ...
Since she started this thread, last night, she did the groin 4 more times and it went just as beautifull, only in the morning she had a bit of trouble hitting it with the DULL insulin siringe (yeah, she knows she needs longer needles, but hey, why not keep insulin syringe till there's obviously no chance to do otherwise? ) . She therefor noticed that, with the groin, using a NEW syringe, or at least used for not more than 3 times, is really really necesary....as in whatever location, but here it seems to be a must. So, all went well so far, but she really fears that artery there, she knows how bad an artery hit hurts, she knows to recognise arteries but she's so damn optimistic that whenever she hit one (and she did like 4 times) she thought it's her eyes not working well seeing that thick, pink, bubbly blood ....lol.
so, tips & tricks ?

[RaverHippie]

Well I found a diagram but one general rule with the circulatory system, it's generally the same in every person, but every person is different. So doctors generally know where each vein is but they can vary slightly so never trust a diagram exactly.

These pictures illustrate (one from a cadaver one an illustration) how intertwined the three main parts are (femoral vein, artery, nerve) and why the entire idea is ridden with potential for failure. The strange thing about the entire area is that it appears there are no fascia or muscular coverings over the area, hence the name femoral triangle. Although I did find this:
"The femoral vein and artery (but not the nerve) are surrounded, for a short distance, by the femoral sheath. This is a sleeve of tissue which is a continuation of fascia from within the abdomen. There is no sheath present at birth, but it is pulled down as the limb grows."
This just means there's a muscular covering over the highest end of the femoral vein and artery holding them very tight together. So avoid it by going lower(3-6cm) on the thigh but still at the top portion of the thigh. In every picture I've seen so far it looks like the femoral vein is closer to the midline of the body (the artery is on the outer side of the body). So going to the inside of where a pulse can be felt seems like a possible technique unless SWIY has developed something better.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	information in this post is scientifically accurate
	thats some very helpful info hipster :D nice one

[tourniquet]

Thanks for the diagrams, the cadaver one I find especially explicit and helpfull. Looking at it though made swim notice that she's not going THAT low when hitting the vein, and that fascia over there explains the snaps she feels in the needle as she goes through. Not painfull, but feels like going through several different layers of ...stuff, with a final snap when she hits the vein. For the moment, she's pretty cool about it, since she's shooting in the exact same spot everytime, there's already a mark there so all that needs to be done is sting through that same track mark and go straight in, with the whole needle, till that wonderful vein snap. What worries her is that this method, although being somewhat safe (hittin the same place makes sure she's not hittin the artery or nerve), she knows it's gonna get painfull after a while and will also look bad. A solution swim figured out for this is that, when this place gets too sore, she should either go lower, or try the other femoral, on the other side. Again, this is a place she'll be using only till her ext jugular gets better, so probably something like 2 weeks (neck veins heal incredibly fast). But so far she really felt in love with this sweet groiny vein, that provides her a better rush than even the neck (might be placebo, like swiy says, but thing is she starts to feel the rush before finishing the hit, which didn't happen anywhere else). So this rush thing actually has some "scientific" base, time base to call it so....a hit in the arm will provide the rush in somewhat like 10-15 seconds, in the legs/feet (ankle) like 15-30 seconds.....and the neck is like 5-7 seconds....while the groin is3-5 seconds. So if not a better rush, it surely is a faster rush. Also, swim noticed the faster starting rush in the neck wears off faster, too. More intense, but not as long as the arm or whatever.But the groin....wow! Faster than anything else, and lasting longer than the arm...! She knows this makes no sense medically...but through time, she noticed many things that make no sense to her medically/scientifically, but work in reality. For example, the more concentrated it is, the better rush it provides, but fucks up your veins more.
Think SWIM can end this thread, all seems to go well with her technique, and she really can't see what more help could she get except for more diagrams...since there seem to be very few people shooting in the groin (which she finds pretty amazing, in romania there's a LOT of junkies who have the groin as the preffered spot, and not only those that have no other places left!...).
So, swim thanks the raver for his help and good intention and hopes that she could be this usefull to some desperate swimmer, as she's gathering experience in the most "tabu" places ...heh.

Reputation Comments on this post:

This may make newbies think it is a good idea to go in these places but they are very dangerous places to go

[jason2404]

swim was a groin injector for 3 to 4 years and believe me these veins are the most dangerous over the last year swim has been in and out of hospital alot nearly losing his legs please try and smoke your kit you will be alot safer one thing swim is curious is did you ever have any serious problems with your neck i have seen friends with badly swollen necks take care please

[tourniquet]

Uhm nope no problem with neck on swim....and she has been shooting in her neck for close to an year now....8 months in the same vein (external jugular), which she finally fucked up with few speedballs and few misses...
The groin thing didn't work out too well for her though...no harsh problems, just that after 5 days it got too swollen (the whole area) from injecting in the same spot everytime and the insulin needle was not long enough anymore and swims scared of bigger needles...
SO, she went back to her beloved neck. Internal Jugular now. And must say, man, this is something else! Its been nearly a week now, and its going as smooth as day 1 !
About swiy's question...on neck problems....the neck is a very very irrigated place therefor it heals a lot faster than any other shooting place. The only real danger I see with neck is that there's nerves you can touch in there and get your neck paralised...but they're deeper than you need to go and actually deeper than you can possibly go with an insulin needle!
so, as long as swiy doesn't use a long needle, and keep it to insulin, the neck is a great place to go...no matter how many red dots swim might get for sayin this ...
people are just waaay too scared on this spot and with not too much reason...there's nothing worse that can happen about the neck that couldn't happen in any other area...just need to stay alert whenever you stick that needle in your skin, and you'll be allright....
what should be taken into account most about shooting place is how fast does that specific spot HEAL, as this is what fucks up veins in the end and gets junkies going to dangerous places, too deep within.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Dangerous, and posted despite knowing it was dangerous

[Jatelka]

Tourniquet: Given that your monkey is on the internet trying to find out how to hit their femoral, then their advocation of internal jugular as a safer option, is, quite frankly, astonishing, and extremely irresponsible and dangerous (and, yes, will result in red dots, because this site is about harm reduction)

The only danger is nerves you can touch?

The IJ has significantly more anatomical variability than the femoral. Think carotid artery lying over the vein. Believe me, the chances of dissection and subsequent stroke are significant if one hits the carotid artery.

The IJ is very close to the apex of the lung. There is a significant risk of pneumothorax and death

Want to know why the guidlines for inserting IJ lines for medics now include ONLY doing it with ultrasound guidance? Because people die, and that's in hospital, with monitoring, not digging around in their neck, in the first stages of withdrawal

[Ilsa]

^^ yes!! this thread is almost tough to read--and that comes from someone who's done a lot of stupid stuff trying to overcome the barrier of flesh. there are few good harm reduction strategies for the neck or groin. aside from dvt, infection and all the other goodies that come along this injection site, you could very easily nick a nerve, artery (and with the level of blood pressure in the arteries of the neck i suspect that even a small nick could cause problems), or as Jatelka said, a lung.


i've attached a fairly recent article as well