Opinions - Best Choline Source?

[shatteredparadigm]

It seems nootropics should be stacked with Choline. Just wondering on the opinions out there as to which type is best. Is Alpha GPC worth the cash?

[Shampoo]

Alpha-GPC is indeed worth the cash. Especially if you buy it as a bulk powder and cap it yourself, as it is significantly cheaper that way.

Choline-citrate is almost as effective, and much less expensive if finances are tight. It must be taken in higher doses, but its bioavailability is still much greater than lecithin or other more common choline sources.

[Herbal Healer 019]

Originally Posted by Shampoo

Alpha-GPC is indeed worth the cash. Especially if you buy it as a bulk powder and cap it yourself, as it is significantly cheaper that way.

Choline-citrate is almost as effective, and much less expensive if finances are tight. It must be taken in higher doses, but its bioavailability is still much greater than lecithin or other more common choline sources.

I read that Lecithin is a much better source of choline than the choline salts (bitartrate, citrate, chloride) & makes choline more bioavailable than compared with the salts (265% w/ lecithin)

Source: Sports Nutrition: vitamins & trace elements by Judy Anne driskell ...http://books.google.com/books?id=iv8...um=4&ct=result

Through what source did you determine choline-citrate as having a greater bioavailability than choline found in lecithin?

[derek30]

I buy lecithin from a reliable vitamin company here in Canada, and it is inexpensive. I see no need to pay alot of money for choline or lecithin.

derek30 added 20 Minutes and 54 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by shatteredparadigm

It seems nootropics should be stacked with Choline. Just wondering on the opinions out there as to which type is best. Is Alpha GPC worth the cash?

Try all of them and see what works for you. Everyone is different, and if one source of choline works for someone, it might not work the same for you.

[0utrider]

one should avoid DMAE though

[Milk man]

Originally Posted by outriderx

one should avoid DMAE though

There have been some studies that show that DMAE shortens life spans in certain animals such as Quails - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t=AbstractPlus

Effects of dimethylaminoethanol upon life-span and behavior of aged Japanese quail.

The lysosome hypothesis of aging predicts that membrane stabilizers will extend life-span. Stabilizers containing the dimethylaminoethanol moiety (DMAE) have been reported to extend the life-span of drosophila and mice. We tested the prediction in Japanese quail (N = 15) by administering DMAE bitartrate (18.4 mg/kg/day) in the drinking water for 69 weeks, starting at 195 weeks of age. A matched control group (N = 14) received tartaric acid (4.0 mg/kg/day) in the water. Contrary to the prediction, the DMAE-treated group has a shorter life-span after start of treatment (49 weeks) than the controls (69 weeks). No significant differences between the groups were observed in body weight or daily fluid intake. Three behavioral studies were carried out on survivors at 243-249 weeks of age, namely; activity response to light-flash; sexual mounting response to a female quail; and classical conditioning of the heart rate. Aged quail differed from young-adults in changes in motor activity in response to light flashes. Aged quail appeared less responsive initially to reinforced conditioning trials and demonstrated extinction when light flash was not followed by electric shock. There were no detectable differences in latency to mount or in basal heart rate, either as a function of age or as a function of DMAE treatment.

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DMAE ineffective for increasing levels of acetylcholine in the brain

Dimethylaminoethanol (deanol) metabolism in rat brain and its effect on acetylcholine synthesis.

Specific methods utilizing combined gas chromatography mass spectrometry were used to measure the metabolism of [2H6] deanol and its effects on acetylcholine concentration in vitro and in vivo. In vitro [2H6]deanol was rapidly taken up by rat brain synaptosomes, but was neither methylated nor acetylated. [2H6]Deanol was a weak competitive inhibitor of the high affinity transport of [2H4]choline, thus reducing the synthesis of [2H4]acetylcholine. In vivo [2H6]deanol was present in the brain after i.p. or p.o. administration, but was not methylated or acetylated. Treatment of rats with [2H6]deanol significantly increased the concentration of choline in the plasma and brain but did not alter the concentration of acetylcholine in the brain. Treatment of rats with atropine (to stimulate acetylcholine turnover) or with hemicholinium-3 (to inhibit the high affinity transport of choline) did not reveal any effect of [2H6]deanol on acetylcholine synthesis in vivo. However, since [2H6]deanol did increase brain choline, it may prove therapeutically useful when the production of choline is reduced or when the utilization of choline for the synthesis of acetylcholine is impaired.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t=AbstractPlus

Is 2-dimethylaminoethanol (deanol) indeed a precursor of brain acetylcholine? A gas chromatographic evaluation.

Acute administration of deanol-p-acetamidobenzoate (Deaner; deanol) has been reported to elevate brain choline (CH) and acetylcholine (ACh) levels. We have developed a specific and sensitive gas chromatographic assay to measure deanol levels in tissue and have applied this assay to our studies of the effect of acute deanol administration on deanol, ACh and Ch levels in rodent brains. Details of the method are described in this text. This procedure is quantitative and yields reproducible results over a wide range of deanol concentrations (0.30-200 nmol). Seven endogenous and pharmacological parameters have been studied using this procedure. In control rodent brain, liver, heart, lung and plasma, we detected no free endogenous deanol (less than 1 nmol/g). After deanol administration, we were able to detect deanol in tissue and have attempted to determine a relationship between these levels and values of ACh in the same tissue. Regardless of deanol pretreatment time (1-30 minutes) or doses (33.3-3000 mg/kg i.p.) used, we detected no increase in mouse whole brain ACh levels. Likewise, there was no detectable elevation in ACh levels in rat whole brain, cortex, striatum or hippocampus after a 15-minute pretreatment with 550 mg/kg of deanol (i.p.). The only elevation in ACh levels which we detected occurred selectively in the striatum of mice pretreated with a massive dose (900 mg/kg i.p.) of deanol for 30 minutes. This selective increase in striatal ACh levels oculd not, however, be related to levels of deanol in the striatum because there was no greater accumulation of deanol in the striatum than in other brain areas tested or in whole brain. These data do not confirm the results of other investigators who reported elevations in whole brain or striatal ACh levels after acute administration of lower doses of deanol. The data emphasize the need for further investigation into the mode of action of deanol and question its suggested role as an immediate precursor of ACh synthesis in the central nervous system.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...RVAbstractPlus
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Some users have reported that DMAE has positive effects for short term use(around a week) and after that negative effects are much more apparent.

Since I am assuming you are talking about Nootropic use, you want the choline to become acetylcholine.

Choline supplements are often taken as a form of 'smart drug' or nootropic, due to the role that the neurotransmitter acetylcholine plays in various cognition systems within the brain. Choline is a chemical precursor or "building block" needed to produce the neurotransmitter acetylcholine, and research suggests that memory, intelligence and mood are mediated at least in part by acetylcholine metabolism in the brain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choline

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I found a really good post on Centrophenoxine on another board, so I will just be quoting that post.

There is a huge advantage to take centrophenoxine a.k.a. meclofenoxate over CDP-choline a.k.a. citicoline!

What is this advantage you may ask? Well, the absolutely fabulous drug centrophenoxine is an anti-lipofusin drug. You see, as your brain ages, your brain cells acquire dark, age-related deposits (junk) called lipofuscin. To keep your brain young, you want to keep your lipofuscin level low.




http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8979484...Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8821338...Pubmed_RVDocSum

This doesn't just remove nasty lipofuscin from your brain, but it removes lipofuscin from your entire body. As you age, your whole body acquires these horrid cellular waste deposits!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1512044...Pubmed_RVDocSum

I can't believe I've thus failed to mention that centrophenoxine enhances your brain anti-oxidant systems within your brain! How could I have?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6416880...Pubmed_RVDocSum

There are many many many more studies on pubmed. I suggest you search for more.

You will also notice that there are no, I repeat no negative studies on centrophenoxine out there! Do your brain and body a favor and get on some centro today!

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Excellent post. Thanks for citing and giving sources of information
	significant post!
	Good info on DMAE and Centrophenoxine. Gave me some damn good leads to follow.
	Useful provision of abstracts
	a lot of interesting info there
	Very well laid out examples of older and current reserach on DMAE. It does wonders for the quality of my sleep though so...

[snapper]

Why avoid dmae?

SWIM takes ~ 1g choline, 350 mg alpha gpc, 300 mg centrophenoxine and about 100 mg DMAE daily with piracetam. Seems to work though the choline does taste awful if not capped and cause some transient nausea after ingestion.

[snapper]

SWIM's been using centrophenxine for 6 years now and thinks it is well worth the hassle and expense of getting. Thanks for the DMAE info - SWIM has some bulk that swim was slowly using up as part of SWIM's stack, but now maybe SWIM will eliminate it. SWIM was mainly using it as a choline donor...

[0utrider]

yea.. swim also read some more nasty stuff about dmae, at least compared to the other choline sources
however, he also reads of centro... being "split"/metabolized into dmae in the body. is that not correct?

[snapper]

Yes, which leaves SWIM unsure about the true benefit or not of DMAE.
What is the consensus on daily dosage and frequency of centrophenoxine on those who use it ?

[bob_arctor]

Originally Posted by snapper

Yes, which leaves SWIM unsure about the true benefit or not of DMAE.

Yes, it was interesting information. SWIM has used DMAE on and off for the last three years, this last year in conjunction with piracetam. No headaches even without choline supplementation, but SWIM haven't noticed any synergy between DMAE and piracetam.

One thing that makes SWIM continue using DMAE is the fact that when consuming 300-700 mg of DMAE before going to bed, sleep quality is improved and it seems the body doesn't demand as much sleep as before. Generally SWIM wakes up early which is useful since SWIM is a sucker for sleeping over important things.

SWIM has Centrophenoxine at home to, perhaps a switch to see differences is in order to evaluate. This thread is a good one.

[0utrider]

for swim the consensus right now would be alpha-gpc. however.. interested in cento.. as well

Centrophenoxine (also called Meclofenoxate, and formerly sold under the brand name Lucidril) is a drug used to treat the symptoms of senile dementia and Alzheimer's Disease. It is a compound of two biochemicals: dimethylaminoethanol (DMAE) and parachlorophenoxyacetate (pCPA). DMAE is a natural substance, found especially in fish, and also produced in the human brain. pCPA is a synthetic compound that resembles a variety of plant hormones called auxins.
Like DMAE, it is a precursor to the neurotransmitter acetylcholine and may increase levels of this chemical in the CNS. It also increases cellular membrane phospholipids which is considered by some to be an important antiaging effect. It is clinically shown to improve memory, have a mentally stimulating effect, and improve general cognition.
It is also used off-label as a nootropic, often combined with a racetam drug such as piracetam. A typical nootropic dose is 250-3,000 mg taken in 1 or more doses.

Well, for SWIM DMAE just sounds too bad. He read some other threads in this forum and others and on the web generally, it is just not the best source, alpha-gpc may be cheaper, but safer and easier to dose. Especially on the long-run DMAE showed some undwanted side-effects. Centro.. sounds good, yet its strange that its this closely related to DMAE.

[shatteredparadigm]

Thanks for the feedback!!! This was so helpful and intellectually stimulating (no pun intended)!

[Milk man]

Originally Posted by outriderx

Centro.. sounds good, yet its strange that its this closely related to DMAE.

Swim has a bottle of Centro, it says it is "Neuro-enhanced DMAE"

[0utrider]

yeah exactly! So it seems a little strange that DMAE on the one side is actually worse than thought at first glance, on the other Centro.. is said to be pretty good.. so whats going on with that? Or does one also have to take the effects of DMAE into account when talking about Centro? Probably..
The most interesting thing is this lipofuscin-removal (or whatever these grey-brain spots are called), other than that alpha-gpc sounds better

[Faktum]

*Subscribed*

[Faktum]

So would this be nice combination to take?

Piracetam
Alpha-GPC
Choline
Modafinil

[Shampoo]

Originally Posted by Faktum

So would this be nice combination to take?

Piracetam
Alpha-GPC
Choline
Modafinil

Alpha-GPC and Choline are both Choline sources, and thus taking them both is redundant. Cut out the choline, keep the alpha-GPC, and that is a fine stack, though taking them all at once is probably not the most effective way to go about that.

[snapper]

alpha GPC is expensive and choline is cheap. SWIM combines the two to cut down on the amount of alpha GPC used. They are also different sources hence have different bioavailabilities so a combination may represent a more beneficial supplementation. SWIM combines them due to cost, however.

[Shampoo]

Originally Posted by snapper

They are also different sources hence have different bioavailabilities so a combination may represent a more beneficial supplementation.

The first part of this statement is certainly true, Choline and Alpha-GPC do have different bioavailabilities. However, Im not sure how this would "represent a more beneficial supplementation." Could you please expand on what you mean by this? I dont mean to challenge, just to clarify.

Is there any evidence to support the concept that using multiple sources of a neurotransmitter precursor may have greater efficacy in increasing the production of that neurotransmitter than a single source? By this logic, would taking 5-HTP with a hefty dose of cheese, poultry, or Griffonia simplicifolia seeds have a greater effect on serotonin production than taking any of those elements on their own?

[Faktum]

I'm trying to order piracetam now, but which one should I choose?

Nootropil (Nootropyl, Generic Piracetam) or Normabrain (Cerecetam, Nootropyl, Generic Piracetam?

Also, which of the Modafinil products are the best one?

Modalert (Provigil, Modapro, Generic Modafinil) or Modapro (Modalert, Provigil, Generic Modafinil)

[honourableone]

Originally Posted by Faktum

I'm trying to order piracetam now, but which one should I choose?

Nootropil (Nootropyl, Generic Piracetam) or Normabrain (Cerecetam, Nootropyl, Generic Piracetam?

Also, which of the Modafinil products are the best one?

Modalert (Provigil, Modapro, Generic Modafinil) or Modapro (Modalert, Provigil, Generic Modafinil)

If you are merely listing different brand names of the same thing, there will be very little difference between them (with equivalent doses).

[snapper]

Different bioavailabilities means just that- each formulation, be it a salt, natural product containing said supplement, conjugated molecules, etc. is absorbed, metabolized, broken down at a different rate, and potentially even has different receptor binding characteristics. There is not a lot of definitive information about what type of choline is best, much less best for SWIM's individual metabolism. SWIM also has a really hard time quantifying the level of cognitive enhancement that choline supplementation with each type really has, much less in combination with other nootropics. Taking different forms of choline compensates for the failings of each individual form. Taking too much choline (within reason) is not going to be a problem for most people unless doses are really high (excess of 10g/day).

[oggy]

Whats the dosage for Alpha-GPC?

SWIM planes on doing a stack with:

Alpha-GPC - ?
picamilon - 100mg
Oxiracetam 500mg
Sulbutiamine 200mg
L-Tyrosine 500mg + P-5-P 50mg

Would this make a good nootropic/wellbeing stack? Thanks.

Ps: BN used to stalk all these supplements but they only have Alpha-GPC and L-Tyrosine, I have P-5-P. Is there any other bulk nootropic stores?

[Barksdale]

Originally Posted by oggy

Whats the dosage for Alpha-GPC?

I plane on doing a stack with:

Alpha-GPC - ?
picamilon - 100mg
Oxiracetam 500mg
Sulbutiamine 200mg
L-Tyrosine 500mg + P-5-P 50mg

Would this make a good nootropic/wellbeing stack? Thanks.

Ps: BN used to stalk all these supplements but they only have Alpha-GPC and L-Tyrosine, I have P-5-P. Is there any other bulk nootropic stores?

Looks pretty good. Oxiracetam could be expensive so SWIM might want to try Piracetam at times too Never heard about Sulbutiamine, but Tyrosine is some good stuff + it makes SWIM more tan. If SWIM would add anything it would be ALCAR and Selegiline.