Which is better to achieve realization - psychedelic or dissociative?

[honourableone]

By realization, SWIM means gaining a greater understanding of reality, and the meaning of existence (or lack of it) SWIM was thinking about this, because in a way the two are opposites... SWIM would be interested in opinions involving both experiences and scientific ponderings.

SWIM thinks that theoretically dissociatives would be better, as they separate mind and body allowing for uninterrupted contemplation, however psychedelics increase information to the brain from the outside (why they could be considered opposites), which could be considered better for understanding that one and everything else are in fact the same thing...

SWIM hopes he has made this clear enough, and is interested in hearing people's opinions.

[FooManChoo]

Swim says psychadelics hand downs. In high dissociative states, although powerful in their own way, swim feels too disconnected from his true self to realize anything of much use to the 'real him' I guess you could say. Where as swim is known to have had the odd revelation here and there while on psychadelics that have been useful in shaping his being in a possitive way. Never have had an 'amazing' heart warming experince on dissosciatives but have numerous times on psychs.

[Richi]

Perhaps a combination?

But in Dr. Phil's opinion, psychedelics provide more of a connection with the world that helps one see what they usually miss.

And dissociatives are unpleasant for him, although to date he has only tried one.

[chillinwill]

Red Rock is going to have to say psychedelics are the best to get a better understanding of reality and meaning of existence. Red Rock found that when he used psychedelics such as LSD, mushrooms, 2c-X series, and DOx series, that it was easier to ponder these type of questions than with disassociatives such as ketamine, DXM, nitrous, etc. He has never tried PCP but would imagine that that chemical would not be beneficial for this type of experiement

[podge]

In swims experience .... neither is technically "better" or "worse" than the other for learning about the nature of reality. Conventional psychedelics ( LSD, mushrooms , mescaline ) open certain doors and are usually better for contemplation as usually one maintains a solid grasp of "reality/sobriety" so its usually easier to work with internal dialogue. Also they open up more possibilities with set and setting as outdoors is an option which usually doesnt apply to a proper dissociative experience, and most if not all swimmers will agree that set and setting is a major element which effects the quality of the trip.

While with dissociative's ( ketamine anyway ) the point tends to be more about losing all grasp of sober reality and tends to be done indoors and sitting/lieing down. But the experience while being far shorter in duration can be exceptionally profound and especially useful for pushing the boundries of what one knows to be reality.

Both push the limits but both push it in different directions so both serve an equally useful/valid purpose my penguin thinks. No clear winner..... just two champions.

[Salvinorin A]

Yeah swim agrees, they're different.

SWIM has taken both dissociative-level doses of psychedelics and dissociatives (particularly DXM and DMT-orally)....swim learns different things from both of them.

But just a question though......would one consider the ayahuasca (harmalas) a psychedelic or a dissociative? the dmt is a psychedelic of course, but the harmalas are doing most of the work.

Sal-A

[Felix Guattari]

One would think that the objectifying, dehumanizing potential of disassociatives would make them great tools for exploration of the realms inner and otherwise, but in my experience the views they provide are somewhat self-limited. True, DXM allows one to see one's body as viewed by an alien explorer or a fly, but the predominant feelings of such views seem to be bafflement and alienation; no understanding is really reached in situ because everything seems so thoroughly other that one doesn't really know where to start. Added to this is the problem of recall: the most SWiM usually takes back from disassociative 'holes' is the idea of alienation and complete otherness - the 'memories' of the disassociative state are often too hard to work with and bring back under the heading of the ego and too often feel like 'things that happened to someone else'.

The 'purely being' of psychedelics is a sort of total engagement with the world (even if that world is the world of ideas or shapes, &c.) which has its roots in a feeling of contentment with being.

SWiM has little experience with ketamine, which I hope is more lucid than salvia or DXM, both of which, while fascinating, don't easily or very often lead SWiM to any sort of realizations about anything, so much as a dazzlement at the variety of consciousnesses of which the human brain is capable.

While much of this is simply my preference, I suspect that many (or most) would agree with me in saying that psychedelics more readily give useful insight.

Felix Guattari added 3 Minutes and 53 Seconds later...

Sal A: Why do you claim that harmalas are doing most of the work? By my understanding, the harmalas primarily tie up the enzymes responsible for deactivating DMT (mimosa, psychotri vridis &c.). That's not to say, however, that they don't have psychoactive properties by themselves.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Detailed answer, links opinion with experience

[Phungushead]

SWIM agrees with everyone who has said psychedelics, by far, for this purpose. While SWIM has had amazing experiences with both types of substances, the only real "breakthroughs" received were from mushrooms and acid.

SWIM's experiences show that dissociatives will give more insight into personal life issues, while psychedelics will give more into the big picture of life.

But that could be different for every SWIM.

[Richi]

Originally Posted by Phungushead

SWIM's experiences show that dissociatives will give more insight into personal life issues, while psychedelics will give more into the big picture of life.

This really hit home with swim, a beautiful summation of the central difference between the two. While dissociatives force one to look in, psychedelics allow one to see out.

[Alexander_Praves]

SWIM sides with psychedelics on this one as well. He feels that the state of his brain (thought paterns, ways of looking at things, logical thinking, etc.) is under the influence, or, perhaps, simply takes longer/is slower in recovering from the experience when it comes to psychedelics. A lot of insight is usually gained during this 'fractured' period, which, in SWIM's experience at least, is shorter with dissociatives (or even completely missing in some cases).

[Dragonus18]

Dissociatives at first, to induce extremely disoriented thoughts into the subconcious without knowing, then smoking weed on a later occasion and writing all odd magickal/spiritual thoughts you have into a notebook for later review and additions (whilst stoned)

SWIM accidently did this, loves it

[emersonthecat]

Hmmm that's a good question. Personally I'd say psychedelics, but I think it probably all really depends on the individual and their brain.

[Richi]

Having now experiences a another, more classic dissociative, this crazy pot head is sitting on the fence.

Ketamine is of the same caliber as magic mushrooms for him, but qualitatively very very different. VERY different.

Experiences with both psychedelics and dissociatives promote realization, because they contrast and complement one another.

[sandoz1943]

SWIM and her man were just having this discussion last night. She feels that while psychedelics help you to see the truth around you. Dissociatives help you see the truth in yourself. It makes sense to her that when all outside stimuli is cut off you have nothing but whats in you left. Your not getting anyout side information and there for anything that you think or experience comes from within your own mind or subconscious. She usualy comes up with insite by dissecting the experience when she comes down. She also believes this may what leads to some frightening experiences on dissociatives. Whats inside can sometimes be way more scary in than whats on the outside. Best to do some cognative house keeping and soul searching and decide your o.k. with whats inside you first. SWIMs man feels that dissociatives are too murky and strange to provide any personal insite. Thats why she loves him because he is not her and offers another view point. They have agreed to disagree.

Reputation Comments on this post:

A well articulated view point that does a good job of addressing this question.

[chazsaysrelax]

Originally Posted by sandoz1943

SWIM and her man were just having this discussion last night. She feels that while psychedelics help you to see the truth around you. Dissociatives help you see the truth in yourself. It makes sense to her that when all outside stimuli is cut off you have nothing but whats in you left. Your not getting anyout side information and there for anything that you think or experience comes from within your own mind or subconscious. She usualy comes up with insite by dissecting the experience when she comes down. She also believes this may what leads to some frightening experiences on dissociatives. Whats inside can sometimes be way more scary in than whats on the outside. Best to do some cognative house keeping and soul searching and decide your o.k. with whats inside you first. SWIMs man feels that dissociatives are too murky and strange to provide any personal insite. Thats why she loves him because he is not her and offers another view point. They have agreed to disagree.

This is a great point that SWIM wanted to point out himself. That point being they are each useful in a specific way.

SWIM's opinion differs from this in that he believes psychedelics can lead to a better understanding of the self, in addition to the established fact that it can lead to a better understanding of the world at large. Or to put it another way, one will often have realizations about his/herself the more they understand the world. When one understands the world (and eternity), he may then easily understand how he fits into and interacts with it, and thus he understands not only himself, but also his fellow men and all living things.

It is in SWIM's opinion that it is essential for one to understand the world before one understands the self. If one embarks to understand the self first, he is much more likely to become confused when he tries to understand the world. This is because he will try to define it as it relates to him, instead of the other way around. This can lead to misconceptions about reality and even greater dissociation from the world, which would obviously hinder his spiritual growth.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Interesenting point on understading the world before trying to understand oneself.