Does the word "Hallucinogens" do justice?

[OrbOfSanity]

Hallucinogens and hallucinations have been accepted worldwide as a generally bad thing. Anyone, however, who has taken things like LSD, DMT, or psylocibin know that that is not what they do. A hallucination, as stated in dictionary.com is a perception of visual, auditory, tactile, olfactory, or gustatory experiences without an external stimulus and with a compelling sense of their reality, usually resulting from a mental disorder or as a response to a drug. Is this true? I believe that hallucinogens like LSD, DMT, mescaline, and psylocibin should be put into a class that more accurately depicts what they actually do. The class that I have so far come up with would be called visual intracranial arcane-dimension stimulants, or VIADS. Essentially, I don't think that these substances poison your brain, but instead stimulate them to unlock the bizzare and unknown dimensions that the brain is capable of creating. Any thoughts?

[Alfa]

I agree that hallucinogens is not accurate and only describes part of the taste. However, IMHO your suggestion is not better. Psychedelics would do.

[cra$h]

the only problem swim has with the title of hallucenogens, is that the hallucenations isn't what it's about, they're just a tasty little treat. But to find a word the DEA can comprehend is tough, since they're pretty ignorant to what the mind does to itself while under the influence.

psychedelics are perfect. Making that the common word could even give the psychs a different view. shows how dumb people are... give something a different name, and they think differently of it.

"would a rose still be a rose even with a different name?" -Shakespear

[OrbOfSanity]

The thing that concerns me most is that so many people are frightened just by the name. SWIM would have been better off taking acid if he understood that he was going to see things that aren't possible in this realm. To me, a hallucination is seeing an oasis that isn't there, or "shadow people" when you're very tired. The goal is to possibly lighten the load of fear that comes with taking hallucinogens or psychodelics.

[cra$h]

halucenogens also cover such a wide variaty of drugs, from benadryl to lsd. But swim was under the impression the psychedelics like lsd, mushrooms, and possibly salvia and dmt were the primary focus. Now if you include the dissociatives, and even Extacy, then yea, they're hallucenogens. Overall a very vauge word. Shouldn't even be used.

[OrbOfSanity]

Hmmm... It's true that they are closed minded... It would be tough to get them to see it for what it really is. SWIM might even be considered insane to have thought about such things. It may be possible for these things to be accepted, though. The majority of the things SWIM has done like LSD, DMT, mescaline, and psylocibin are schedule I in the United States, meaning that they have no possible medical use. Under the name, psychodelics, that is very true; but under a name like the one I have proposed, it may be possible for them to be accepted as a tool for exploring the unknown.

OrbOfSanity added 5 Minutes and 41 Seconds later...

And to possibly make a little more sense out of VIADS. Visual, or what is seen. Intracranial, or occuring within the brain. Arcane-dimensions, or dimensions which are mysterious and unknown except by the select few who have taken interest. Stimulants, or something which stimulates. So, essentially, something which stimulates the brain to explore dimensions which are hidden within and are available only to those who have taken interest in them, or otherwise taken these "drugs".

OrbOfSanity added 0 Minutes and 14 Seconds later...

And to possibly make a little more sense out of VIADS. Visual, or what is seen. Intracranial, or occuring within the brain. Arcane-dimensions, or dimensions which are mysterious and unknown except by the select few who have taken interest. Stimulants, or something which stimulates. So, essentially, something which stimulates the brain to explore dimensions which are hidden within and are available only to those who have taken interest in them, or otherwise taken these "drugs".

Reputation Comments on this post:

good post

[cra$h]

I must give you credit, well thought out. But psychedelics and their reason/effects vary to become something very individual, for the most part. Now, from what swiy's saying, psychedelics are gateways to expand our conscienceness to the unknown through brain stimulation. Eh, very debateable.

To swim, psychedelics open up doors that one would not just normally open through daily life. Essentially, psychedelics are useless, even for the whole "mind expanding" aspect. They're just meer catalyst to help induce what would be inevitably learned, but it's done very rapidly and that's why it's such a traumatic (meaning good or bad) experience. It serves as a microscope to what you already, and what the world already is. There's nothing "new" one learns of any dose of LSD for example, but it just becomes more clear.
Like those theories? Pay closer attention to what Aldoux Huxley (sp?) and Tim Leary's work.

So swim's suggestion, as of now is still psychedelics. Represents rapid brain changes, but option B would be (drumroll please!).......: Wisdom Catalysts.
Not very clever, but gets the point across, and will work until further scrutany.

Reputation Comments on this post:

fascinating suggestion, your perception of what psychedelics are

[Benga]

agree with the reality-like aspect of the phenomenon implied by the "hallus" part of the compound, which is indeed inaccurate and much more suited to states of delirium induced by deliriants ( though this can certainly happen in some cases with non-deliriant "psychedelic" substances, especially in high doses)
it has, to some extent, a political aspect, in giving a very orientated vision of the experience.
however i also much prefer the broad relative neutrality of Osmond's neologism, psychedelic.
granted that the notion of "psyche" is already a slippery slope, introducing further connoted notions such as "wisdom" or "hidden / arcane dimensions" is also just way too orientated for my tastes.

b

[cra$h]

when swim hears psychedelic, he thinks of someone laying in a field swimming in fractal sequences, much like the wmp visuals, enjoying, loving, EXPERIENCING.

Hallucenogens though, lead swim to thinking of a diphenhydramine or pcp experience. A little scary, dark, dirty.

[gmeziscool2354]

agreed. that term does not do these drugs justice at all

[Felix Guattari]

The term hallucinogen is an ideological product. LSD, psilocin, mescaline are called hallucinogens because the notion of losing complete touch with reality - hallucinating - is what scares the sober, prohibitionist mind the most.

Think about the popular cartoon in which the characters eat a funny mushroom and see unicorns, president Lincoln, dancing teddy bears. Or the myths about people taking acid and mistaking their child for a turkey and putting it in the oven, etc. Those are hallucinogens. They make people hallucinate and do not exist outside of our modern myths.

If the classification that a drug receives is a classification of its predominant effect, I doubt there are any hallucinogens, bar perhaps diphenhydramine, which is still more deliriant than hallucinogenic. Psychedelic is my preferred term because it corresponds most clearly to the effects of the drugs in question - what you/see/hear/think is not a meaningless, uninterpretable distraction from consensus reality, but a certain intensification of it. The word also seems to imply that people only do them for the same reason people watch fireworks - to see cool shit.

The word reeks of silly, moralist prohibitionism. Let's be rid of it.

[Alfa]

Wouldn't atropine plants like datura be a true hallucinogen?

[lostmente]

why not associatives? it encompasses the synergistic elements experienced at high doses while including the idea that thoughts and memories become more fluid and interchangeable

lostmente added 2 Minutes and 30 Seconds later...

another point...to break down the word hallucinogen.

for me it says a generator of hallucinations. now that is something that is questionable. how can a chemical be the source of the hallucination, at most it should be the enabler.

so hallucinators sounds much cooler

lostmente added 3 Minutes and 25 Seconds later...

one thing to be mindful of. that one will never escape the taboo of drugs and the negatively slurred meanings. no matter what you call lsd (lsexd?)its still what it is to some people.

[Felix Guattari]

I would class them as deliriants, as they can put the user in a dreamlike state in which they are unaware that what they are seeing doesn't make sense. A friend of mine told me a story about seeing jackalopes in the distance and thinking nothing strange of it . They also have significant stupefying, amnestic, anaesthetic effects that colour the experience and seem to let dreams loose on reality in a confusing way. Diphenhydramine can be milder in some of these secondary effects.

I'd say that deliriant antihistamines are certainly hallucinogenic, but if I were creating a general schema for the categorization of psychoactive substances I wouldn't call them hallucinogens.

Of course, there's no real scientific debate here, really, its all semantics. I'm just disgusted by the idea of putting LSD in the same category as, say PCP, allowing them to be treated as a completely artificial unity. Classification, in this case, is more of a political exercise than a scientific one. The common understanding of what a 'hallucinogen' does and is is obviously wrong and is based in politics not science, but that doesn't mean that it absolutely couldn't be appropriated elsewhere for a properly scientific purpose, but I'm not clear as to where that would be.

Rant much?

[Greenport]

Let's call them what they are - 5-HT-1a, 2a,2c agonists

They bind to the same receptors that serotonin usually bind to - the purpose of this binding is to be able to send messages from our sensory organs to our brains and it is usually done in a relatively specific pattern that relates to the world around us.

When these agonists bind to the receptor site, they do so in a relatively random manner and this causes the brain to register a pattern of senses that does not truly exist. The brain then attempts to further process this and converts those senses into the most reasonable answer of what you are experiencing based on your perception.

[OrbOfSanity]

The brain works off of memory - similar to a computer. It uses the eyes to recognize things it already knows, and is functional enough to input new things it hasn't seen. When the brain is on true hallucinogens, it is being torn down into a state where it cannot recognize normal things, and thereby fills in the "gap" with whatever memory it Can access. This is not the case with LSD, psilocibin, or DMT, where the brain is not being poisoned and thus made unable to function, but instead is stimulated to access parts of the brain that are not normally accessed. Although it is debatable, real is what the brain allows to be real.

[lostmente]

I thought anticholinergics (these are true hallucinogens?) dissolved your physical need to attach to reality, and while this is a very serious thing to do to ones self...the only thing outside of reality is inside your mind

lostmente added 2 Minutes and 2 Seconds later...

theres one interesting note.

That the true hallucinogens or deleriants.. are ANT-agonist. they are limiting ones natural function

where as hallucinogens or serotonin agonists are enhancing the natural function..and are much less toxic for it

[Waffa]

i am sorry for getting this old topic up again - but it is really good topic and would not make sence to redo similar topic again - i hope it's ok

I just quote from wikipedia says it (almost) well:

"The general group of pharmacological agents commonly known as hallucinogens can be divided into three broad categories: psychedelics, dissociatives, and deliriants. These classes of psychoactive drugs have in common that they can cause subjective changes in perception, thought, emotion and consciousness. Unlike other psychoactive drugs, such as stimulants and opioids, the hallucinogens do not merely amplify familiar states of mind, but rather induce experiences that are qualitatively different from those of ordinary consciousness. These experiences are often compared to non-ordinary forms of consciousness such as trance, meditation, conversion experiences, and dreams.

One thing that most of these drugs do not do, despite the ingrained usage of the term hallucinogen, is to cause hallucination. Hallucinations, strictly speaking, are perceptions that have no basis in reality, but that appear entirely realistic. A typical "hallucination" induced by a psychedelic drug is more accurately described as a modification of regular perception, and the subject is usually quite aware of the illusory and personal nature of their perceptions. Deliriants, such as diphenhydramine and atropine, may cause hallucinations in the proper sense..."

- is this near perfect? Does any real book describe it similar way?

So but even tho it seems i do understand i think Pinocchio needs re-do some serious trip maybe to truly understand (now when one have finally studied what is what and start to get the picture) because it's like my mind do not still have clear answer "it is like that"
For example ALL these 1000+ alien related trips in erowid, and some them are really intense and far out - how would someone explain that this has to do something whit reality? Or space & history travels? Talking hotdogs etc. Talking/explaining alien thing to someone who does not belive aliens have anything to do whit realty or our earth is specially hard...

For example Pinocchio first trip ( 8 years ago) was one's mind as all the time something that had not much of the relation to realty (well, more then aliens but still..). For short, first Pinocchio was going to sex museoum and was thinking that he had really nice sexual time there (later firend told one that he try to get it on whit manacens), once he come out from museoum everything was like in cartoon but one was afraid to go ower the road, it seemed to him that cartoonish car's and road have conspiracy against him - as soon as he cross the road they will hit him. Cartoon cars had mouth and eyes and also road had mouth and road told me "come come... no problem.." & then vinked @ the car... so anyway i was afraid to cross the road. Now every time one gets high he is afraid to cross the road becouse white out visuals it all comes back like "maybe one just do not see cars and they would hit him, maybe one just thinks that he is not so high - actually there might be many cars on this road..." - there was no cars on this road last time friend told later... would be great to get rid of this paranoid feeling somehow

anyway how could i say that "perceptions that have no basis in reality is hallucinogen" does not imply in any of these cases(aliens, hotdogs, space, talking road..)?

[EscapeDummy]

Originally Posted by Felix Guattari

The term hallucinogen is an ideological product. LSD, psilocin, mescaline are called hallucinogens because the notion of losing complete touch with reality - hallucinating - is what scares the sober, prohibitionist mind the most.

Think about the popular cartoon in which the characters eat a funny mushroom and see unicorns, president Lincoln, dancing teddy bears. Or the myths about people taking acid and mistaking their child for a turkey and putting it in the oven, etc. Those are hallucinogens. They make people hallucinate and do not exist outside of our modern myths.

If the classification that a drug receives is a classification of its predominant effect, I doubt there are any hallucinogens, bar perhaps diphenhydramine, which is still more deliriant than hallucinogenic. Psychedelic is my preferred term because it corresponds most clearly to the effects of the drugs in question - what you/see/hear/think is not a meaningless, uninterpretable distraction from consensus reality, but a certain intensification of it. The word also seems to imply that people only do them for the same reason people watch fireworks - to see cool shit.

The word reeks of silly, moralist prohibitionism. Let's be rid of it.

Dude. You make excellent points. +rep, just one thing DXM 4th plateau and plateau Sigma could be considered true hallucinogens. And they aren't anticholinergics or deleriants.

Originally Posted by Felix Guattari

I would class them as deliriants, as they can put the user in a dreamlike state in which they are unaware that what they are seeing doesn't make sense. A friend of mine told me a story about seeing jackalopes in the distance and thinking nothing strange of it . They also have significant stupefying, amnestic, anaesthetic effects that colour the experience and seem to let dreams loose on reality in a confusing way. Diphenhydramine can be milder in some of these secondary effects.

I'd say that deliriant antihistamines are certainly hallucinogenic, but if I were creating a general schema for the categorization of psychoactive substances I wouldn't call them hallucinogens.

Of course, there's no real scientific debate here, really, its all semantics. I'm just disgusted by the idea of putting LSD in the same category as, say PCP, allowing them to be treated as a completely artificial unity. Classification, in this case, is more of a political exercise than a scientific one. The common understanding of what a 'hallucinogen' does and is is obviously wrong and is based in politics not science, but that doesn't mean that it absolutely couldn't be appropriated elsewhere for a properly scientific purpose, but I'm not clear as to where that would be.

Rant much?

No, great rant. The worst part is that PCP is Schedule II, unlike the dreadful LSD, which our government (US) placed in Schedule I for its horrific properties.