Combinations - Phenylethylamine + Kava?

[nick760]

SWIM has been interested in trying this combination for a while. He's liked both of these substances individually. For SWIM, Kava tends to be the gentler of the two, with very mild, but sedative effects. SWIM's experiences with PEA have been much more profound; with 1-2g, everything feels great, his muscles relax, and nothing bothers him. This seems to only last 30 minutes or so, and he's ONLY experienced effects when PEA is taken on an empty stomach.

He noticed on a couple of PEA sources listed on the description "caution, effects are enhanced by: ... kava-kava" or "works best with: ... kava-kava." He read somewhere that Kava was an MAO inhibitor, and he knew that people used MAOIs like Deprenyl in conjunction with PEA for longer lasting effects.

However, he was wondering if this would be safe, and what dosages of PEA would be safe with Kava, as he has read about consequences of PEA + MAOIs.

Any thoughts/comments?

[Felix Guattari]

SWiM's thought of this hisself, but hasn't any phenethylamine.

Kava kava contains quite a few different but related actives with quite diverse effects. 'Kava' is not an MAOI; however, it does typically contain desmethoxyangonin, which is a selective and reversible (and competitive, I think) inhibitor of MAO-B. This means that it will prevent the breakdown of norepinephrine and dopamine somewhat, but not serotonin, the upshot of which being that it poses, for all intents and purposes, none of the health risks associated (somewhat incorrectly at times) with MAOIs.

I really have no clue why a combination of the two was suggested, but the addition of phenethylamine, a TAAR1 agonist and neuromodulator tending to increase transmitter levels, to the combination of an MAOI and some reuptake inhibitors could be pretty fun/relaxing/interesting.

As for safety, the only risk with the phenethylamine+deprenyl combination is overstimulation and hypertension, which, as usual, are largely eliminated by exercising caution with dosage (start small and be patient, etc.). I strongly doubt this would be an issue with kava, as desmethoxyangonin is even weaker of an MAOI than deprenyl, which is safer than most due to its specificity.

Do it and report back!

edit: as for dosage: SWiM'd start with 500 mg and work up if he wanted to be extra-safe. However, that wouldn't be at all characteristic of his usual modus operandi. I'd have enough confidence to start with an active dose of phenethylamine.

[someguy200]

Originally Posted by Felix Guattari

I really have no clue why a combination of the two was suggested, but the addition of phenethylamine, a TAAR1 agonist and neuromodulator tending to increase transmitter levels, to the combination of an MAOI and some reuptake inhibitors could be pretty fun/relaxing/interesting.

It's suggested because PEA is rapidly metabolized by MAO-B, so inhibiting MAO-B allows for greater effects and longer duration of action with a lower dosage.

Originally Posted by Felix Guattari

edit: as for dosage: SWiM'd start with 500 mg and work up if he wanted to be extra-safe. However, that wouldn't be at all characteristic of his usual modus operandi. I'd have enough confidence to start with an active dose of phenethylamine.

Most of the reports I've seen say the active dosage drops from 1-2 grams without MAO-B inhibition to under 100mg with MAO-B inhibition, so I'd start pretty low to be safe.

[zornthro]

Yes. PEA is enhanced by MAO-B inhibitors. Some people report that PEA does not effect them; the likely reason being that their MAO-B levels are too high.

One of kava's components is a reversible MAO-B inhibitor, meaning it would enhance the effects PEA.

[StarryEyedNoOne]

So has anyone tried this? Did SWI-Nick get any results? I've used Kava extract for a long time, and I have some PEA on the way, and I plan to try it out with a low dose.

[nick760]

SWIM actually tried this out back in December when he originally made this thread, though he never reported back because the results weren't significant. All in all, he drank a couple cups of Kava Kava followed by 1.5g of phenylethylamine. For SWIM, Kava typically is rather subtle, but he did feel some mild relaxation (as usual with Kava). He was low on PEA and didn't really feel the effects of PEA kick in. Any effects that were felt overall were very mild, and he can't say he really noticed anything caused by the synergy of these two substances.

SWIM is excited about this being tested with a higher dose of PEA, preferably 2g. No negative side effects were noticed, and thus he feels it is safe to test with higher dosages. He would do so himself but is now out of both PEA and Kava.

[StarryEyedNoOne]

Hmm, Swim found PEA anticlimactic. She takes Kava extract daily, and today she took 2g of PEA afterward. 45 minutes later, her scalp began to tingle and her heart rate sped up for about 45 minutes. No particularly pleasurable effects were felt. Now she has so much of it left, she's considering trying it in lower doses for it's appetite supressing effects she read about.

[zornthro]

SWIM tried this when he got PEA in the mail. All SWIM could tell me is that it was kind of tripy and made him feel a little uncomfortable. Sounds were strange, like sounds that were far away sounded much closer and very clear, but unimportant. Vision was very clear as well. Every kind of sensory stimulation demanded his immediate full attention right then and there, not necesarily because it made him focus but because everything was so aplified and filled his brain.

SWIM's dose was fairly small because SWIM was heading over to a party and just thought he'd take one tablet of PEA (500mg) over his kava. SWIM had maybe half a tablespoon of potent kava sublingually before hand.

[lasciviouslizzy]

Swim is prescribed 20mg of methylephenidate, 3 x daily. Swim is wondering if the Phenylethylamine powder they bought recently could be taken alongside this with any ill effects.

So far Phenylethylamine hasn't really done much for swim and shes wondering if shes taking it the wrong way (if there is one?).

[voxvox]

Sorry for the off-topic.

Does any of swiy monkey's parasites know if yohimbine can work as MAO-B inhibitor?

Swim's monkey's parasite was thinking about the yohimbineHCL + PEA combination. Oral or nasally

[someguy200]

Swim is prescribed 20mg of methylephenidate, 3 x daily. Swim is wondering if the Phenylethylamine powder they bought recently could be taken alongside this with any ill effects.

So far Phenylethylamine hasn't really done much for swim and shes wondering if shes taking it the wrong way (if there is one?).

PEA isn't likely to do much without MAO-B inhibition, and swim would be wary of combining an MAO-B inhibitor with methylphenidate as the MAO-B inhibitor could lose it's selectivity and inhibit MAO-A if dosed too high. Also an active dose of PEA would probably be too much and too hard to dose safely with methylphenidate, especially if swiy doesn't have any fast acting countermeasures on hand.

Originally Posted by voxvox

Sorry for the off-topic.

Does any of swiy monkey's parasites know if yohimbine can work as MAO-B inhibitor?

Swim's monkey's parasite was thinking about the yohimbineHCL + PEA combination. Oral or nasally

Swim think's he's heard of yohimbine being an MAOI but wiki doesn't say anything about it. That combo sounds bad on many levels though, first has swiy let PEA powder contact swiy's skin or mouth before? PEA is a mucous membrane irritant and will give a pretty nasty chemical burn in swiy's mouth, which would only be worse in the nose, yohimbine also doesn't look like it would be too pleasant up the nose. Also, I'm sure the anxiety inducing effects of yohimbine would happen well below the dosage for any strong MAO-B effects.

[voxvox]

Originally Posted by someguy200

yohimbine also doesn't look like it would be too pleasant up the nose

Mister Superman, who has actually some yohimbine up his nose right now think that it is not bad at all. Probably due to the very low dosages.