Can certain drugs permanantly alter the brains dopamine levels?

[Herbal Healer 019]

R any commonly abused drugs, legal or illegal, known for causing long term damage 2 dopamine levels in the brain?

Can certain drugs permanantly alter a person's personality and/or mental capacity/cognative abilities adversly?

[snapper]

yes
MPTP, 1-methyl-4-phenyl-1,2,5,6-tetrahydropyridine, was a byproduct of the synthesis of a demerol analog which was sold as synthetic heroin and caused permanent parkinson' disease in users. Parkinsons is related to low dopamine in the brain.
Any drug like amphetamine, MDMA, meth, etc. will depress dopamine levels after they wear off but this effect is temporary.

[dyingtomorrow]

Originally Posted by snapper

yes
MPTP, 1-methyl-4-phenyl-1,2,5,6-tetrahydropyridine, was a byproduct of the synthesis of a demerol analog which was sold as synthetic heroin and caused permanent parkinson' disease in users. Parkinsons is related to low dopamine in the brain.
Any drug like amphetamine, MDMA, meth, etc. will depress dopamine levels after they wear off but this effect is temporary.

Damn that's crazy.

SWIM has been depressed his whole life, but it went from moderate to severe when he was about 11-12. That also happens to be the time when he was in the hospital for a while for appendecitis, and they kept shooting him up with demerol. He hated it at the time, and used to say he couldn't understand how people could like that feeling. 10 years later he is a hardcore heroin addict, go figure. Anyways, wonder if that shit fucked SWIM's brain up.

[Potter]

Pharmaceutical MAO-I's, the A class, permanently (or nearly so) alter brain chemistry and can set you up for this situation. Mostly used for Parkinson's though they used to be used for depression. Psychedelic use while under the influence of the older MAO-Is can result in tripps lasting weeks, months, years. This is no way a safe practice, and in all likelihood a one way trip to the psyche hospital, invalid care, being a useless burnout.

on a side note Harmala is considered a reversible MAO-I and is moderately "safe" when used in conjugation with tryptamines, but that's discussion for elsewhere.

[Herbal Healer 019]

Originally Posted by Potter

Psychedelic use while under the influence of the older MAO-Is can result in tripps lasting weeks, months, years. This is no way a safe practice, and in all likelihood a one way trip to the psyche hospital, invalid care, being a useless burnout.

"weeks,months, years" Seriously?

So if someone took extracted passionflower to boost a mushroom trip, they would end up tripping for weeks, months, or years? Sounds like something that would be on the DEA website.

[Potter]

Originally Posted by Herbal Healer 019

"weeks,months, years" Seriously?

So if sum1 took extracted passionflower to boost a mushroom trip, they would end up tripping for weeks, months, or years? Sounds like sumthin that wud b on the dea website.

My god, use English, txt spk makes you sound like a 10 year old. And sorry, but using a mobile device is hardly justification for this failure at language, just book mark threads you want to respond to and do so when you get home.

No, not harmala, that is a short acting MAO-I and is safe to use along side tryptamines, mainly mushrooms. It will greatly increase their potency and even an experienced user should start with a very low dose of mushrooms and build up over a period of a few tripps until they get a handle on the dosing.

Old style pharmaceutical MAO-I's are the danger here. Nobody hasn't a clue how newer MAO-I's interact and has little to no interest in any sort of experiments, might as well play Russian roulette.

And who the hell get's their information from the DEA? My god that site is so full of crap, don't even know where to begin.

Just making this point clear: DO NOT MIX MAO-Is (other then harmala) WITH DRUGS. These are dangerous chemicals not to be toyed with. Not just drugs, but wine, cheese, sausage, grapefruit, chocolate, coffee...damn near everything. Parkinsons is the ONLY reason you should have these.

Harmala is different, but needs to be well understood before used.

[Herbal Healer 019]

I wasn't saying I got my info from the DEA website, obviously. I was saying the tripping for weeks/months/years sounds like some bullshit the DEA would come up with to demonize hallucinogens further

[Potter]

Nobody is quoting Dale Pendell on this one, from pag 204 of Pharmako/Gnosis

Loosely, Type A MAOIs such as moclobemide, primarily inhibit the metabolism of tryptamines, whyle type B MAOIs such as deprenyl, main;y effect phenethylamines. In vivo, there is a lot of "crossover". "reversible" means that the inhibition is temporary, brought on by competition at the binding site. Most MAOIs that are used as pharmaceutical anti-depressants are "permanant" -they work by destroying the docking site, and as such are much more dangerous.

Certain brave (or reckless) researchers who have experimented with irreversible MAOIs and psychoactive tryptamines report long-lasting flashbacks triggered by darkness weeks, even months, after the initial series of experiments."

Further insight from Wiki:

Reversibility

The early MAOIs inhibited monoamine oxidase irreversibly. When they react with monoamine oxidase, they permanently deactivate it, and the enzyme cannot function until it has been replaced by the body, which can take about two weeks. A few newer MAOIs, notably moclobemide, are reversible, meaning that they are able to detach from the enzyme to facilitate usual catabolism of the substrate. The level of inhibition in this way is governed by the respective concentrations of the substrate and the MAOI.

Harmaline found in Peganum harmala is a "reversible inhibitor of MAO-A (RIMA)."[2]

Nobody is submitting this to Ask Erowid, to attempt to get some further information on case studies and the like. If it comes in, nobody will start a new thread somewhere.

[Jasim]

Opiates typically do not cause long term changes in neuroanatomy or neurochemistry. The MPTP is an accidental by-product in the illicit manufacturing of the opiate MPPP and is not in medically used demerol.

There are two groups of chemicals that are known to permanently cause alterations in the anatomy of neuronal tracts in the brain. Note, this is when abused in high doses. There are other psychoactive chemicals that can cause damage, but here I will focus on these 2 families as I know most about them.

Phenethylamines and analogues. And Tryptamines and analogues.

Phenethylamines typically (but not always as is the case with MDMA and analogues) mimic dopamine in the brain and can destroy delicate dopaminergic fibers. These fibers can regrow when use is stopped, though the regrowth is usually not complete and not consistent with the original growth patterns. Phenethylamines include the amphetamines.

Tryptamines typically mimic serotonin in the brain and can destroy sertonergic fibers in a similar manner. Again, the neurons can regrow, but the regrowth is usually incomplete and does not resemble original growth patterns.

When I say neuronal fibers, I'm actually talking about the dendritic spines (receptor endings) of the neurons. The neuronal bodies themself are generally unharmed. So they don't kill brain cells, the cause the brain to rewire itself.


Before someone replies to this attacking what I have stated about psychedelics causing brain damage, I will find and provide sources if you ask nicely.
Also, if you read carefully Shulgin et al. used very cautious and safe practices for their bioassays.

[ganjahero420]

um as for what potter said swim has known a person to take a very very large dose of several maoi's then consume a very large dose of dmt and he has truly never recovered and literally just stares at the wall all day. its been 2 years about and when he is coerent enough he claims he is still feeling the dmt.

[Jasim]

DMT is a tryptamine. And MAOIs have all kinds of ill-effects. For a DMT + MAOI experience, one doesn't need much of the MAOI. Increasing dose of the MAOI past a certain point just increases toxic effects and has no increased psychoactive effect.