Dose - Maximum Saturation of LSD: Higher doses just longer, rather than stronger?

[Captain Caveman]

Apparently 400 mic is around the point where if swis take more, the trip will only last longer, and not get any more intense?

[RaverHippie]

Tell that to my raver friend who literally had a puddle of liquid acid squirted into his hands.

[Captain Caveman]

Exactly

[CrookedEye]

If there is a saturation point, it's much more than 400 mics, and SWIM would guess upwards of 10,000 mics, depending on ones tolerance, as well.. For a novice, probably around 3-5,000 mics would do it.. SWIM knows people that have done more than both those figures, and seem to be higher for longer than on lower dosages, though, so SWIM thinks it depends on a lot on personal factors..

[Samadhi]

swim has read that a saturation dose with LSD depends mostly on tolerance, period of ingestion(s) and methods of doing so. Theoretically a person could take 10,000 micrograms and trip to the moon and experience something like no other, but it could also be that his/her receptors budge so far.

But, having said that, if anyone is lucky enough to have tens of thousands of micrograms of LSD, please don't waste it on a one-night binge/frying receptors.

[Alfa]

Please define the meaning of 'maximum saturation'. I am aware of the literal meaning, but what is the practical meaning? Damage to the receptors, CNS or pharmacological pathways, death?
Why would there be a saturation point?

[Samadhi]

the amount of LSD that would actively stimulate the 5-ht and related receptors has an end like with most drugs (swim assumes)

this thread is to discuss the speculated amount of LSD that would be effective without oversaturating the receptor site and wasting LSD.

Swim has personally take 1400 micrograms and been as far out as he has ever wanted to be, can't even imagine more.

[Shampoo]

Originally Posted by Alfa

Please define the meaning of 'maximum saturation'. I am aware of the literal meaning, but what is the practical meaning? Damage to the receptors, CNS or pharmacological pathways, death?
Why would there be a saturation point?

I believe that pharmacologically, saturation is usually used in reference to the point at which all available receptors are occupied.

On a dose response curve (like here: http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec20/ch304/ch304d.html ), this would occur where the curve peaked and plateaued. This plateau suggests that further increases in dose do not elicit an increase in response. The plateau of such a d-r curve is used to determine the efficacy of a given drug.

Originally Posted by samadhi

swim has read that a saturation dose with LSD depends mostly on tolerance, period of ingestion(s) and methods of doing so.

Indeed. Since saturation is referring to the occupation of all receptors, it should be variable based on the amount of available receptors. In the case of the 5-ht2a agonists like LSD, receptors downregulate in response to stimulation. A decrease in the amount of available receptors should accordingly decrease the theoretical "saturation" dose.

By "period of time" I assume you mean frequency of dose, and this is also definitely an aspect of use that will effect saturation, since frequency of dose is directly related to the development of tolerance via receptor downregulation and phosphorylation.



So, to answer the question, one would simply have to find a dose-response curve of LSD (though I doubt one exists for humans, there is likely one somewhere for rats) and seek the plateau. That would be the saturation point, at which no more receptors are available for activation and thus more LSD will elicit no further effect.

EDIT: just to clarify however, additional LSD may still undergo depot-binding to a molecule like albumin, where it will remain bound until the plasma concentration of LSD drops significantly, at which point it will be released and will find a receptor to activate. This is why taking more LSD does not necessarily result in a more profound change in state but rather a prolonged one.

[Songcycle67]

SWIM is so fucked up beyond 1,000ug that he can't really trust himself to criticize the differences beyond that point, but there is most definitely a difference between 400 and 1,000ug. One's eyes still work at 400ug, for example.

I don't really trust scientific determinations made about LSD because it is such a strange and seemingly boundless chemical: it seems that anything is possible through subjective experience with this drug. The metaphysical aspects just make it too hard to put limitations on it.

[Desertfox]

Someone should ask that elephant that they killed by a lethal dose of LSD, the only known case on record. I bet he was tripping more than any of us talking apes can imagine

Reputation Comments on this post:

you reminded me of that story, and what i found on erowid was rather enlightening, thanks.

[Potter]

Desertfox: from the reports of it, sounded like a pretty awful experience. Of course getting shot is no way to start a trip, let alone being given massive amounts of thorazine soon after.

Nobody was also under the impression that the LSD was lethal, yet in the erowid article linked below, you'll see that it was more likely then not, the thorazine, as the ecperiment was repeated with out a gun or anti-psychotic, and the elephant lived. That's the elephant you should talk to.

Everyone really aught read this article, it sheds new light on such a poorly reported incident.

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_history4.shtml

Reputation Comments on this post:

thanks for the clarification on the elephants death!

[libertalism]

Swim read it a while back , the elephant didn't die of the acid but of to much thorazine. Also the acid was calculated on his body mass and not on his brain.

Oh and the LD50 of acid is 12,000 ug so if anyone is tempted to experiment with the boundaries , beware.

[Shampoo]

Originally Posted by libertalism

Oh and the LD50 of acid is 12,000 ug so if anyone is tempted to experiment with the boundaries , beware.

Just to clarify, this is not a substantiated figure for oral, human dosage.

Here are a few reported LD50s from the Merck Index,
46mg/kg (Mice)
16.5mg/kg (Rats)

These values are for intravenous dosages. Oral dosages are usually significantly higher (1-3x) in terms of LD50 than intravenous doses.

Since there has only been one recorded fatal overdose of LSD (as far as I have been able to find), and it was from an intravenous dose of more than 300mg (300,000ug), a human oral LD50 cannot be established or given as fact.

If the above were to be translated by weight directly to humans, the value from mice would translate to 3,450mg (3,450,000ug) in a 165 pound man. From rats it would translate to 1,237.5mg (1,237,500ug) in a 165 pound man. Obviously, those are not accurate LD50s either. The point is that to state an LD50 for oral LSD at this point in the history of it's research, is nothing more than a guessing game, and an unsubstantiated one at that.

[Desertfox]

Lsd should be used to counteract bad thorazine trips, but we live in insane world where LSD is illegal and thorazine is used to counter "bad" lsd trips.
In all the reports SWIM has read on thorazine it has led him to believe SWIM would be safer and more comfortable riding out a "bad" trip rather than taking an anti-psychotic that makes you feel like an elephant sat on your face( or for that elephant it probly felt like a whale fell on him), and in general making you feel strung out and week. Sorry if this post is too off topic

[libertalism]

Won't taking anti depressants while having a bad trip cause supressed issiues?

@Shampoo , yea i read that it was only the LD50 on animals after posting, but CBA to edit.
Tho i think that doing more then 12.000 will probably cause black outs or other negative effects, as ones mind can only handle so much.

[Jatelka]

Without getting to far off topic. The full text of the "Elephant" article is here...

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/loc...atid=32&id=739

(See, no need for Erowid, although it's wonderful!)

[Potter]

there's no good reason to take an anti-depressant. They are long acting and won't do any good, might cause Serotonin syndrome.

If you need help with the bad tripp, may nobody suggest this post and this post. More drugs should be a last resort, only when a person has become a serious threat to themselves and others. Bad Tripps are there for a reason and often present the opportunity for positive change.

[Jatelka]

And how did "maximum saturation" go to "bad trip"?

Back on topic please

[nanobrain]

SWIM did some laundry about a month ago to discover to his shock and dismay what he thought was a ruined 5x5 sheet of Rolling Stones LSD in a baggie in one of the pockets which fell out post wash cycle. these were laid at 160 mikes.

SWIM failed to note the number 3 penned in blue on each tab which indicated 2 additional drops of ~130 mike liquid had been applied to each said tab - in his dismay, he was looking at the printed side...

he did indeed note this, and the fact that infact there were two of the sheets stuck to each other front to back by a tad of condensation in the airtight plastic baggie, and that the LSD was very far from destroyed by the cold cycle...after dumping the contents of the baggie into his mouth and swallowing the first electric gulp as the 2 sheets came apart in the buccal cavity...math time.

50 x (160+130+130) = 21,000 mikes, give or take milligram for degradation, about ~20,000 mikes was ingested by the fated individual...

whether or not total saturation was achieved is debatable, although 5HT2A/C and primary DA receptors certainly felt, pardon the pun, fully occupied, and there was an A1 adrenergic load, and while there was no physiological symptomatology of worrysome note, the presence of the extreme load of LSD in the system was noted a week post ingestion. there was very little cognitive distortion despite prolonged wakefulness and extreme psychedelia lasting for 60+ and 30+ hours respectively...i highly suggest such mistakes never be attempted by any sane or half way rational human being, and SWIM remains highly thankful to the gurus who made the ultra clean acid, to DMT as his spiritual ally and his spiritual practices contributing to his ability to navigate extremely disorienting environments and to God for enabling him to live to tell this cautionary tale.

[polidelaiko]

Can I ask why didn't SWIY try one or two tabs instead of the two sheets?

[nanobrain]

^SWIM was obviously not in a rational frame of mind thinking the evil washing machine had destroyed the precious acid - he says he reckoned he was going to be chewing blank paper...

[Songcycle67]

and also, in nanobrain's monkey's defense, there's a limited amount of time in which one can "up the dose" and if he had taken one sheet and it had only worked a little he would've only had a small window of opportunity to try the other one. Obviously he knew enough about biochemistry to understand this. Still, crazy story! Props to the monkey and God.

[polidelaiko]

One sheet would be just as intense. Well, half intensity, but still holly-macaroni-batshit-insane.
I said one or two tabs, just to test if the acid was still there, which obviously was. Just one of those 160+130+130 tabs should be enough to blow most fishys out of the water.
Besides, if fishy fish doses too low and he thinks its too late to take a booster, then maybe he can wait and dose another day.
Boldness and harm reduction rarely go hand by hand.

[Desertfox]

^^How was eating all that paper?

[nanobrain]

SWIM says 'mmm, chewy, cellulosy-cardboardy, slightly metallic bitter and very electric' - j/k he did not swallow the paper, just the LSD saturating the paper...