Opinions - Ethics of Datura suppliers??

[Alfa]

I do not want to discuss specific suppliers, but what do you think of suppliers, especially webshops which offer dangerous drugs, like datura to the general public. By offering drugs of very high risk, they know a lot of people, especially young people will get hurt. I am for free availability of drugs, but there are some very tricky ones, which IMO should only be given with proper information to those who can deal with them. What do you think.

[Pinkavvy]

I agree. Datura should not be sold to the average person, let alone kids trying to score legal highs online.

I would hope that datura has huge warning labels on it.

[panchovilla]

The person eating them utimately has the resposibility. It is not very smart to eat datura that is for damn sure. You should thoroughly research everything you do especially with less common stuff, and always start out at low doses with a new substance.
But the main thing here is thatdatura should NOT be considered an ethnobotanical or drug. I know some crazy ass motherfucker in India eats the shit everyday all day long, but heis a holy man. It is extremelyignorant to eat datura if you have not given a decent amount of time to research its effects and potential to be lethal.

a short poem for the wisemen whodecided to eat datura after viewingone tv show alone. And didn't even eat the right fucking kind as in the show
Fucked Up Dead


or datura gonna get
ya fucked up
Dead DumbassEdited by: panchovilla

[sands of time]

It seems odd to me that the DEA takes huge steps to stop people from using pot, research chemicals, ect, but they have ignored datura. You can't say they don't know about it either, because its use has been documented for a long time, while some rather new research chemicals are being made illegal before they even cause problems.

As for suppliers... Someones gotta supply it, right? This stuff is grown in many regions and is easy to acquire, they are just tryin to make a buck off it. Many suppliers do not even understand the power of this ethno. As far as I'm concerned, someone will go about selling it, because it's profitable to some extent.

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the one absolutely correct opinion

[panchovilla]

It is a profitable plant to grow in the garden, with beautiful purple fragrant flowers. It isnotthe plants fault that some jackass wants to eat it, nor is it the gardeners fault who sells seeds, if some retard wants to ingest something that is potentially deadly. If you drink to much gasoline it will kill you. The plant should not be illegal.





Personally I would never advertise these seeds as consumable, and maybe the person who does advertise them this way is ethically responsible, but in a perfect world they should not be held legally responsible. this aint no perfect world we all know that, by the fact that most holy of holy, mostsacred of sacred weeds, Herbijuana, MOther mary, is illegal. But ofcourse all drugs should be legal from an ethical standpoint. It is also the process of natural selection. The retards kill themselves off by doing stupid shit making man kind as a whole better.Edited by: panchovilla

[RoboCop]

I do not think entheogen suppliers should quit providing datura, due to its history of shamanic use, and if people who study this plant and want to use it as a divinatory tool by all means it is there right.

On the other hand, by keeping it available to the ones who use this plant cautiously and correctly. (Assuming there is a way to use Datura correctly I personally believe there is) It is also open to the uneducated and mislead, who want to try it as a recreational high. Keeping it on the entheogen market will mean the occasional death, and is it worth it? I for one am still debating my side on this. Many entheogen sites have already quit selling datura.

I find it funny that the U.S. is so against drugs that cause intoxication, and even if they are not known to be harmful they still make them illegal. While datura goes untouched by laws salvia divinorium will be made illegal although the harms are unkown, before this deadly drug is. There is something wrong with this.

[Alfa]

IMO all plants should be available, but the internet is a very powerfull media. At the moment an online supplier makes dangerous plants available to the public, he/she knows that uneducated people are going to order them to get fucked up and they get themselves hurt bad. That indeed is the resonsibility of the person itself, but the supplier is practicly opening up a vending machine on the high street and does have a resonsibility. There is no age check. No information.


Toxic drugs are not made illegal, because fewer people try them. Maybe also because they add to the idea that drugs are bad.

[sands of time]

Originally Posted by Alfa

IMO all plants should be available, but the internet is a very powerfull media. At the moment an online supplier makes dangerous plants available to the public, he/she knows that uneducated people are going to order them to get fucked up and they get themselves hurt bad. That indeed is the resonsibility of the person itself, but the supplier is practicly opening up a vending machine on the high street and does have a resonsibility. There is no age check. No information.


Toxic drugs are not made illegal, because fewer people try them. Maybe also because they add to the idea that drugs are bad.

Many American sites do check for ages, requiring that customers be of 18 years of age or up. The problem is, however, that it is difficult to check this information. Basicly, suppliers are limited to making threats to underage customers.

[nEone]

I think there can be two ways to approach this.



I mean, it's one thing to have a lot of helpful information on your
website and sell datura in the context of a pretty plant with dangerous
potential, or as a cultural and biological oddity with a neat history
(jimson weed is tied into a lot of mythology).



It's quite another to sell datura on a website that mostly sells herbal
xtacy and pot alternatives and essentially caters to the undereducated
masses who are just looking for a way to get high.



There are ways to offer things like datura and still be a responsible
vendor. Yes, the responsiblity is ultimately in the hands of the
person who decides to take datura, but we've all seen the media and
legal shitstorm that's surrounded RC's and even Sally because vendors
sell potentially dangerous products to kids (with email addresses like
Luv2triponcid@aohell.com). Vendors have a responsibility to their
customer base as a WHOLE to not rape the potential for profit while
blindly ignoring the results of their improper sales.



I'd prefer to see vendors and communities like this support
self-policing rather than let the various of the governments of the
world start doing it for us.





Of course it's hard to say where to draw the line. There will
ALWAYS be exceptions, and it's better to lean towards freedom than
restriction...



But man, Datura is some nasty stuff.

[Softrat]

There is nothing wrong with per say with selling Datura and it's like to the general public. Many people are quick to pay no real mind to the " not sold for human consumption" clause connected to these orders. This statement means something, it's not there just to legally cover the asses of these vendors. They are telling you that consumption of these products is not per say safe and that these should be regarded as poisens.


As far as selling to kids; if you 18 or older you are in fact an adult, regardless of whether you want to be or not. This is not just a legal clasification. By the age of 18 you are capable of taking responsibility for your life and your actions. If you are under 18 then it is your fault cause you are frauding these companies and you are old enough to know it. You are old enough to understand, regardless of whether you want to admit it, that drugs are an adult responsiblity and you are to stay the hell away from them till you are an adult.


Also these vendors do not live in a free country. Talking too much about what can happen if you eat datura can call your "not for human consumption" clause into question. Most vendors do however make a point of stating that Datura plants are very poisonous.


Also not everybody that buys Datura plants and seeds ever intends to consume them. Many people grow them simply as novelty/collectors plants.

[Softrat]

I agree with Robo Cop that it is possible to use delirients, like Datura, in a responsible way. It takes knowledge of what these plants are and adherence to some important rules andsome patience.


The worst problems occur with Datura when somebody, often a dumb kid, downs a whole crap load of the stuff with no idea how to prepare it. This is what sends people to the ER.


One reason why the US government doesn't care to make Datura illegal is because few people use it and those who do rarely come back for seconds.Most people don't care to do that again.

[Chaote]

Though my knowledge on datura is somewhat limited I have insight on other poisonous ethno's such as mescal beans, whne I wasw at an online vendor browsing products I found that the poisonous ones were labelles as such enough so that it stood out to me and i thought ok not that one, I dont think the vendor has much if any responsibility because they have labelled it and for the most part there are alternatives that they sell. Its like saying that a nursery is responsible if a kid bought and poisonous plant and ate it then died, the nursery sells it for an ornamental purpose, such as datura or mescal beans

[panchovilla]

Also not everybody that buys Datura plants and seeds ever intends to consume them. Many people grow them simply as novelty/collectors plants --quote from above this is the truth and the way that it should be. Sure you can eat it but dont.





To me Datura are only for Novelty/specimen/just to fucking look at





Oh yea Datura plants can sometimes smell good too. If you good a good bloom lots of flowers open at once one night it a seet sort soapy smell. I can't think of a better word that soapy to describe it I don't necessarily think soap smells "good", but Datura metel can, although, nto as good as Brugmansia.Edited by: panchovilla

[BrugmansiaBrujo]

Datura and brugmansia can be safely used to some enjoyment. Just mix the dried leaves with cannabis, and smoke it.



One must be cautious when taking it internally. It can also be
make into a salve and applied topically. used like that it can be every
bit as dangerous as the oral route, but it is absorbed that way. That
is how the witche's flying ointments worked.



And of course the most enjoyable use for datura/brugmansia is just looking at it grow in the garden.

[Qish]

I think the answer is very simple.



this is what i imagine happening.



a person buys a bunch of the seeds on a website, then pills them up,
then trys selling them to kids at his school (this is already happening
with datura). And this kid tells them a bit of info about it, but
really he has no idea what hes doing, and the kids he gives it to...who
knows what theyre going to do with it. Insanity follows.



So people are talking about making it illegal on the forum, i disagree
with that, my thought on it all is that the thing tro do is make it
extremely illegal to sell it without a lisence. and make it illegal to
posess under 18 years of age, or maybe even 21 years of age.



and yeah, kids can fraud the website, but if he has to worry about
getting arrested for selling something illegally, to kids scaerd of
getting arrested for owning something illegally, maybe then, the
children of america will be safe.

[phenethylamine]

I have ingested Brugmansia, and I don't think it's something I would sell to someone. I mean, I wouldn't put a price on that. Not because it's amazingly good, actually I would feel bad to take someone's money for datura because I think that shit is pretty fucked up and it feels like it is damaging to the nervous system and though I don't know any of that for sure, it's just something that I wouldn't put a price on. It's definately not for fun in my opinion, as when I tried it, being as experienced as I think I am, it threw me into complete schizophrenia which might sound fun or funny or something, but it's not. I don't regret doing it, but I just wouldn't sell it or recommend it or anything, and anyone who stumbles across this should MAKE SURE to know everything they can know when dealing with such a dangerous plant/chemical. I heard something scary about it, that if you ingest enough of the shit it can cause progressive, irrepairable brain damage. Again, I just heard that, I donno if that's the truth.

[Eirias]

Datura also has a rich history of ritual useage, and is often utilized in Wiccan type 'spells'.

However, I do think that it is important to note that one
researcher who was considerd to be the foremost authority on "hexing
herbs" and other Solanaceae/tropanes DIED as a result of his attempt to
re-create a recipe for a Medieval "flying potion" combining various
herbs like Belladonna, Mandrake, and Henbane. As one entheophile
once put it, "the Horned Goddess is not to be trifled with, even among
the most experienced psychonauts".

If any of you have ever had to babysit anyone who has
intentionally or accidentally ingested a Datura-like compound, then you
well know the inherent hazards of this plant. They are, however,
extremely beautiful and mysterious entities, and command the attention
and repsect of any passer-by. Just the fragrance and presence of
Datura is intoxicating enough.

I think that the nursery argument stated above is most
applicable-- these things are found in more places than ethnobotanical
shops, and in many areas (such as where I live) they are very common as
"weeds".

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[panchovilla]

I have a large pile of dried Brugmansia flowers that I put in my bedroom. I have noticed that since I put them in there I have been having nightly dreams of real people and real contact that seems very real. They aren't crazy dreams, but very realistic and I have met people from my past in very real situations. I am not sure what is the cause but it started at the time I put the dried flowers in my room. Has anyone ever heard of this or have a link to datura or brugmansia being used like this, but not ingested?

[sunyata]

Originally Posted by panchovilla

I have a large pile of dried Brugmansia flowers that I put in my bedroom. I have noticed that since I put them in there I have been having nightly dreams of real people and real contact that seems very real. They aren't crazy dreams, but very realistic and I have met people from my past in very real situations. I am not sure what is the cause but it started at the time I put the dried flowers in my room. Has anyone ever heard of this or have a link to datura or brugmansia being used like this, but not ingested?

A friend of mine said he experienced the same thing when he had Daturas in his bedroom,I'm currently growing some Brugmansia and have been thinking of having one in my bedroom,think I will. I do know that I feelsome kind of "force" from such plants, once when holding a couple of belladonnna berries in my handI felt a very strong vibe(I'm really sorry for explaining it in such a lame way) from them.


As for selling Daturas, I think it might be a good idea to just sell the plants, not the dried herb/root. If people want to ingest Datura or Brugmansia they should grow it themselves, IMO. At least that way they'll have a closer relationship with the plant, allthough that's no guarantee against disaster.Edited by: sunyata

[PenguinPhreak]

The thing to keep in mind is that some people can handle datura, and it
would be unfair to deprive them of the drug just because everyone else
ends up fucking themselves over with it. I think as long as there are
sufficient disclaimers, and it is made very clear just how powerful and
dangerous this drug is, selling it is ethical.

[cactus]

Originally Posted by panchovilla

I have a large pile of dried Brugmansia flowers that I put in my bedroom. I have noticed that since I put them in there I have been having nightly dreams of real people and real contact that seems very real. They aren't crazy dreams, but very realistic and I have met people from my past in very real situations. I am not sure what is the cause but it started at the time I put the dried flowers in my room. Has anyone ever heard of this or have a link to datura or brugmansia being used like this, but not ingested?

I used to have a massive datura inoxa growing outside my bedroom window. I used to get similar effects to what you describe when the tree was in flower.

[blackbastard]

brugmansia is definately the best smelling and possibly the best looking datura i've ever encuontered.


going back to the main focus of the thread, i think that as long as the site is selling the plant as a plant and is some kind of nursery or online garden centre then it should be totally allowed.


however i agree with nEone that if its an online headshop or even a actual shop then they should be prevented at all costs from selling this kind of plant as it can be incredibly dangerous.





this said, swim once tried his father's brugmansia plant without knowing it had narcotic properties and made a tea with some strong smelling flowers. swim had some interesting minor hallucinations, but no delerium (thankfully).


now swim knows that datura & brugmansia need to be respected if even considering consumption

[BrugmansiaBrujo]

Yes, agreed. The botanical vendors should just sell the plants,
and that's it. Too many people are saying on their packaging in
walk-in store, or on their websites that an herb is as good as or
better than (insert your favorite illegal drug here).



This does no good for the long term continued availability of these
plants. Comments like that get the eye of drug warriors, and will
get our plant allies made illegal one day.



Just sell the herb, and let those that buy it figure out what to do
with it. It ain't like they can't go elsewhere on the internet to
learn about preparation and use, and what different people think these
plants feel like when ingested.



Too much greed in the ethnobotanical industry now, it'll be the end of
it soon if the greedy bastards don't back off. Just like what
happened to the RC market. Had those websites kept a low profile,
and made the Googler dig around to page 15 of the links to 2C-I or what
have you, instead of all of them screaming to be #1 on the first page
of results, I feel the RC vendors would have still been around.



Yup greed fucks up everything.


Edited by: BrugmansiaBrujo

[panchovilla]

I think, THAT IS A BIG THINK(as opposed to know), that Brugmansia may be a lot safer as a whole genus than Datura, and smoking it is safer that ingesting it. Datura metel is the one that was being used by the dude in the Middle East or Indochina on that one National Geographic show that I mentioned in previous post in this thread. If you don't know what species of Datura you are about to ethnonaut around with don't do it.


Ulitmately I believe in the freedom of the plant and the individual person. As long as your not hurting other people or the enviroment you should be able to do whatever you want to yourself. I don't think that Datura stramonium should be ingested, because the fluctuation in potency is just too wild for you to risk your life just to hallucinate there are a lot safer, and less painful,ways to hallucinate than this- Mushrooms, morning glories, Cacti, woodrose, and more.

[Grautr]

Originally Posted by Alfa

I do not want to discuss specific suppliers, but what do you think of suppliers, especially webshops which offer dangerous drugs, like datura to the general public. By offering drugs of very high risk, they know a lot of people, especially young people will get hurt. I am for free availability of drugs, but there are some very tricky ones, which IMO should only be given with proper information to those who can deal with them. What do you think.

I think what is needed is good and accurate information on dosage and effect of these plants. Trying to somehow inhibit there use will not work. Look how the war on drugs is going and you will see why.