Opinions - Methadone or Subutex for SWIM?

[baron samedi]

SWIM is due to go onto one of these drugs to get him off his (at present) 55 grams a day poppy pod habit.
SWIM's shrink wants him to go on Subutex, principally because it is a much easier drug to come off. They also told SWIM that Methadone can have a dysphoric effect, i.e. make people miserable. SWIM is not sure whether this potential side-effect was mentioned principally to discourage SWIM from going onto meth, or whether this is a genuine drawback of the drug.
Thing is, SWIM's life has improved somewhat since he started using poppies again, giving SWIM confidence and making him feel good in a sence that he wouldn't be able to feel otherwise. Something tells SWIM methadone would be better for replicating the feelings he gets from poppy grounds (he just swallows the powder), but he could be wrong. Maybe Subutex would have a more energizing, anti-depressant effect on SWIM, enabling him to function better than on Meth.
SWIM has no experience of either drug, so would appreciate any advice from people with knowledge in this field.

[chillinwill]

Is SWIY going to be using the methadone or subutex to stop taking poppy pods completely and detox from them or basically wants to get on one of these to replicate the poppy pod feeling?

[baron samedi]

Well, the answer to that is probably both, in truth.
SWIM does want to stop using poppy pods completely, but is also hoping that whichever drug he goes on to will replicate the positive effects he gets from taking poppies. He thinks that methadone, possibly, would be the better of the 2, in terms of replicating the opium high, but he could be wrong. Maybe subutex would help his social anxiety and leave him more energized than meth. He just doesn't really know.
Another thing he is hoping, is that the buzz from meth/bupes will be much more standardized than he is used to from poppies, given that the alkaloids in poppy pods varies form batch to batch and pod to pod. He never knows when he has a bad day, i.e. not much effect from the pods, whether it is the quality of the pods he's using or whether his tolerance has reached the point where he needs to increase his dose.
Indeed, he hasn't had a great month or so, compared to the previous one, and worries that the quality of the pods may have dropped off, or it maybe just the natural progression of his addiction. He had 4 or 5 weeks when 40 to 45 grams would make him feel good every day, but has recently been struggling to get much off 55 grams a day.

[chillinwill]

In terms of replicating the opium high, Red Rock would have to go with methadone as that is an agonist and buprenorphine is a partial agonist. For detox purposes and trying to come off the pods, Red Rock would conisder the buprenorphine over methadone as buprenorphine can be somewhat easier to use and come off of that than methadone as long as the taper process is kept under say a month. How long has SWIY had their poppy habit?

[baron samedi]

Well, SWIM has had his daily habit since mid-August, but began using irregularly at the start of July. He also used quite a lot for most of 2007 without becoming fully addicted.
SWIM's instinct would be to try methadone first, so he doesn't lose any momentum in the rest of his life, then maybe use subutex to taper off the meth.
Not having any experience with either drug (or any opiate apart from poppies) it could be however that subutex would be the better option, working wonderfully and allowing him to function better than the heavy sedation of meth.
Does SWIY have experience with either or both drugs?

[chillinwill]

Here's an idea Red Rock just thought of....A lot of people would consider methadone and buprenorphine harder opiates with a stronger potential for addiction than poppy pods. Has SWIY thought of just trying to taper off the pods slowly? The reason I am asking this is because if SWIY has not had stronger opiates before, they will probably love methadone and buprenorphine. If one stays on these opiates long enough, it will be a fucking bitch to come off of in terms of the withdrawal process

[baron samedi]

SWIM can see your logic entirely, however he started abusing pods everyday because he was feeling very low mentally, suicidal almost, bereft of confidence. Since using poppies everyday his mental state and life in general have taken some steps forward, partly, he thinks, because of the confidence of having opiates in his system.
He does not feel ready to give up opiates completely, but is worried his addiction is getting out of hand, and is spending too much money. Although detox from poppies would be a sensible choice, he feels a period of maintenance might suit him better, hopefully only for a short time.
Would SWIY really say that subutex is stronger, and more prone to abuse, than poppy pods?

[chillinwill]

Well buprenorphine definitely is going to be stronger than pods but will also last significantly longer (around 24 hours) so less dosing will be involved. Personally, Red Rock says that SWIY should go for the buprenorphine rather than methadone as it will be somewhat easier to eventually to come off buprenorphine than methadone IMO. THe only concern Red Rock has with all of this is that in his mind, it seems like SWIY is progressing from having only done pods and no other opiates to buprenorphine or methadone which can be a brutal withdrawal and doesn't even provide a lot of euphoria for someone that already has some opiate tolerance. Also go talk to SWIY's doctor or look up a buprenorphine doctor and talk about the advantages and disadvantages with them as to whether one should go on methadone or suboxone.

[baron samedi]

When SWIY talks about providing little euphoria for someone with an opiate tolerance, does he mean meth or subutex, or both, and is this in comparison to the euphoria of doing poppies?
Also, is it true to say that meth can be a very dysphoric drug? SWIM would have thought it would be more euphoric than dysphoric.

[chillinwill]

Both of them provide little euphoria; however, Red Rock would have to say methadone probably provides more euphoria than buprenorphine. Red Rock found that both methadone and buprenorphine provided enough relief to not have cravings 24/7 but he wouldn't exactly call it euphoric as well. Since he had slightly over a gram a day IV heroin habit, his tolerance was high and this might play a part in that as well.

[fiveleggedrat]

Originally Posted by chillinwill

Here's an idea Red Rock just thought of....A lot of people would consider methadone and buprenorphine harder opiates with a stronger potential for addiction than poppy pods. Has SWIY thought of just trying to taper off the pods slowly? The reason I am asking this is because if SWIY has not had stronger opiates before, they will probably love methadone and buprenorphine. If one stays on these opiates long enough, it will be a fucking bitch to come off of in terms of the withdrawal process

Excellent post, this is the right type of thinking here. Might be wading into deeper waters, OP.

As for euphoria: Methadone is bone dry on that, regardless of tolerance.

Methadone can be dysphoric coming off it, the W/D's suck and are pretty bad/long too.

Bupe is the better choice IMO, but if OP wants to maintain and continue use of opioids, methadone might be a better idea. OP does not sound like he wants to quit. OP could give both a shot and see which works better.

[baron samedi]

When SWIY says "wants to maintain and continue use of opioids" does he mean this in regard to meth/bupe, or the opiates SWIM does at the moment.
SWIM wants to cease usage of poppies, but feels he will still need something to cope with the stress/anxieties of his life. In that sense, SWIY is right, he does not want to fully give up, rather move on to a legal alternative.

[drug-bot]

with only a pod habit (no offence, only that theres alot more powerful opiates out there) swim would recommend trying subutex first as its easier to detox from than methadone and seems to work better for smaller habits. and in swims experience (he was heroin addict) subutex works better for smaller habits, meaning it doesnt take away the cravings for opiates only the physical withdrawls (for large habits), again this is only swims experience. swims currently on methadone and it takes away all the cravings and physical withdrawls, but honestly he's a bit scared of detoxing from it.

swim would recommend to swiy to try a quick detox using either subutex or methadone (whatever the detox facility gives) and if you end up relapsing once swiy leaves then try subutex maintance and if that doesnt work (though it should for your size habit) then do methadone. trust swim opiate addictions are hard as hell to break, good luck and remember all swim offered are suggestions coming from one with years of oxycodone then i.v heroin addiction.

Originally Posted by baron samedi

When SWIY talks about providing little euphoria for someone with an opiate tolerance, does he mean meth or subutex, or both, and is this in comparison to the euphoria of doing poppies?
Also, is it true to say that meth can be a very dysphoric drug? SWIM would have thought it would be more euphoric than dysphoric.

in swims experience subutex doesnt give any real euphoria. methadone did give swim some euphoria for the first 3 weeks to a month he was on it then he just felt normal and still justs feels normal from it (kinda like how he felt before the opiates fucked up his endorphine system), by the way he experiences zero dysphoria from it.

ps- with methadone ones dose will need to be adjusted to get to a normal pain and craving free state.

[baron samedi]

in swims experience subutex doesnt give any real euphoria.

Is there a chance that SWIM himself may experience some euphoria, or at least some pleasurable feeling, from subutex, given that he has only ever tried pods (and kratom)? Is the lack of euphoria from bupes more common for people who are used to injecting smack? Just SWIM is a bit worried that changing from pods to subutex will be a letdown, stopping SWIM from withdrawing but failing to provide him with the positive feelings he gets from pods. Will it still help SWIM with general stress/anxiety and perhaps with SWIM's lack of confidence in social situations? He knows that people DO take it recreationally and some report feeling more energized and chatty than with other opioids. Is SWIM likely to feel the self-confidence he gets from poppy pods?
AFA meth goes he has heard conflicting reports. He suspects his shrink may have mentioned the dysphoria aspect to put SWIM off of going onto meth, but there may be an element of truth. However, he has heard it suggested that heroin users lack of enthusiasm for meth may be a kind of smackhead snobbishness i.e. in blind trials, test subjects were not able to differentiate greatly between the drugs. He has also read reports on erowid and suchlike from people saying it made them feel great all day, everyday, unlike having to shoot up every 4 hours or so, with heroin. Given that SWIM has never injected any opiate, let alone heroin, he has a feeling methadone would possibly make him feel great, even more so than poppy pods. Obviously, in this scenario he would still face the problem of long -term addiction and horrible withdrawls, but there is a part of him that at least wants to give it a shot.
Would SWIY say it would be better to try subutex, before the methadone, to see if it works well for him? Or would he be better off going on meth, which is more likely to make him feel good than bupes, and leave the subutex as a possible option for getting off meth in the future, once he has stabilized and hopefully continued sorting his life out? He feels pods have helped him to do so and does not want to jeopardise the progress he has made in the last few months.

[Richard_smoker]

Normally I tend to agree with everything ChilllinWill has to say...

...except for this!

DUDE, let me put it to you this way...you're "hooked" on poppy pods right now. I know it's REAL, ok? it's a REAL ADDICTION!

i don't want to discredit that in any way, but i promise you SWEAR TO YOU that methadone is a MUCH MUCH MUCH STRONGER, HEAVIER, LIFE-CHANGING DRUG compared to poppy pods!

If you're leaning this way, find yourself a methadone clinic, then see if some kind soul will hear your problem out--tell them that you just WANT TO SEE WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE AND HOW THEY COMMUNICATE WHILE ON THEIR METHADONE!

I'm serious! and bring a book to read 'cuz m'done takes a couple hours to kick-in.

Buprenorphine is your way out. honestly.

you can even do a short-course, and be totally free from the physical addiction within a week or two (advice is 1week bupe for every year of opiate addiction).

Even if you change your mind and decide that you just want some kind of 'maintenance feel-good drug', then you're still probably better off with the buprenorphine. why?

1. bupe still gives you a buzz--probably a much better/more reliable one than poppies---however, there is a slight difference or 2 that you'll pick up on soon enough. SO, even if you're on Bupe, but DON'T WANT TO QUIT YET! (???), i'd choose the bupe. reason: because the entire time you're on bupe, you're not doing ANYTHING else to your opiate receptors, and after a long time on bupe, although it may take a while to taper down and off--your body will have 1/2-way healed its problem without even trying because of the agonist/antagonist properties--you know bupe blocks out your receptors so NOTHING else is coming in there--not at least for 3-4 days.
BEST NEWS ABOUT BUPE: you can start off with 1 month prescriptions--i.e. the docs will actually TRUST YOU with the pills!

Methadone: i've seen far too many people unable to open their eyes or focus on anything i've asked them over 30 seconds in thought. people on methadone are mUCH more likely to NOT BE EMPLOYED.
WORST THING ABOUT M'DONE: you gotta get up every morning and show up at 'clinic' for your 1 single dose. they don't trust you with any more than a single day...so now what are you gonna do when your significant other tries to drag you to see the inlaws for Christmas???
answer: Tell him/her "NO. i have to be HERE every single morning to get my daily methadone"

i highly recommend a VERY SHORT COURSE of buprenorphine for this problem. i think pods might be one of the easiest habits to kick. But first make sure you have a 2 or 3 day long "pod party" and get rid of EVERY SINGLE SEED, POD, EVERYTHING!

then, just go see a bupe doc while recovering from your last and final hoora. -DICK

Reputation Comments on this post:

great post with valuable comparisons between methadone and bupe....thanks!

[baron samedi]

Thanks for the assessment SWIDick. SWIM certainly now sees the logic in trying the bupes first. Despite all the bad things SWIM has heard about meth, i suppose the junkie part of him has a desire to try it for himself, to see whether it is as bad/good as everyone says, and to get a taste of what doing smack would actually feel like. However, he has seen for himself what people do look /sound like on meth, and does not particularly want to end up like that. At the moment, most of the time he can still function pretty well, despite the opiates in his system, and is able to concentrate enough on his studies and whatnot. Presumably, bupes would enable him to continue to do so, whereas meth could make him cross the line into a smacked-out wreck. He also likes the thought that his endorphins would naturally correct themselves while on bupes.
Thanks for the advice buddy!

Reputation Comments on this post:

Sounds like a good plan... Take it easy... respect the good/bad aspects of this DEVIL that you're wrestling. BUPE is yo...

[chillinwill]

Red Rock says that doing methadone still doesn't even compare to what heroin feels like. Methadone is just another synthetic opiate while heroin is just in another league of its own. Also, if SWIOP (original poster) hasn't tried more than the pods, IMO, I still think its the best thing not to progress too much in the opiates as once you start down that road, there is no coming back (for most addicts that progress to heroin). Not everyone is this way but I clearly would think most people who do heroin that this ends up being an addiction for them. If Red Rock had the chance to go back and not do heroin, he would do that but its too late now. Anyways, sorry for the rambling as Red Rock has been drinking but he still thinks its in SWIY's best interest not to progress to methadone as that is a full agonist and bupe is a partial agonist.

[methadone_lad]

swim was on subutex at the start of his addiction he was a very heavy iv heroin user,he was up 2 18mg and it wasnt really doing anything for him,so swim has been on meth and is up 2 80mg headin 2 90mg,cause smiw was such a serious addict on heroin,i would advice that swim would go on subutex,cause methadone yes can be a lifechanging drug,but swim will possibly hav 2 be on it for a few yrs and yes it is one of the worst drugs 2 come off if you stop straight away,the worst withdrawals ever!!!!but it can save some people,swims adivce would be 2 go on subutex as the addicition isnt as serious as a full blown heroin addict,hope i have helped )

[baron samedi]

Yeah, although SWIM does have a nagging desire to try meth, just to see if it improves his quality of life, he is coming round to the idea that subutex would be far more suitable for him.
For a start he doesn't want to have to go to the pharmacy, every day for the next few years, just to stave off withdrawls, and indeed, doesn't want to be on any opiate/opioid at all for more than a few months at most, so bupes would be more sensible.
Out of interest, do any meth users really find that it gives them 24 hour satisfaction, at least for the first few weeks/months? And does everyone who uses it turn into a Sean Ryder/Pete Doherty style wreck?

[methadone_lad]

swim haas been on meth for about nearly 2 yrs it has put on abit of weight but does not make you look worse!!if the addict is good and doesnt bring up dirty piss tests swim can get take home doeses so smim doesnt have to go to the chemist everyday,in my opioin baron swim shud go onto subutex or suboxone as not a heroin addict which can be more servere hope ive helped

Reputation Comments on this post:

very TRUE!!! ;) thanks

[award11]

I think you are being given some valuable info. Listen to it. Going from pods to methadone would be a bad idea unless you are prepared for a long long journey that would ultimately bring you back full circle to where you are right now. What I'm saying is, if you get on methadone, you'll run your course and eventually want to get off of it ie Suboxone. It would be easier to go from pods to sub now than to go from methadone to sub later and it would save u a lot of hell and money and a few years of your life. I can hardly remember the two years I was on methadone.... its like those 2 years have almost been erased from my mind. I remember bits and pieces but as far as having any idea of a timeline or being able to look back and put events in chronological order, I cant.... Suboxone on the other hand, will give you a little bit of that boost in confidence like the pods do. There's not a real big "high" or anything, more of a sense of wellbeing.... just kinda normal and your cravings will be gone. I highly recommend it. It also has some antidepressant qualities to it also so maybe that would help you as well. Check into a suboxone dr and see if they cant get you started. I think you'd be glad you chose it over methadone...

[Richard_smoker]

^^^agreed.

one thing you haven't really even considered is the effects of subutex compared to the pods in terms of PLEASURE alone.

unless you're somehow consuming 100's of pods per dose, the suboxone/subutex will UNDOUBTEDLY make you feel MUCH BETTER.

This is in terms of purely hedonistic pleasure from the opiate itself. I know that's probably pretty important to you at this stage in the game--sounds like you're not completely ready to give up the highs. For this reason, you should probably realize that the buprenorphine--once you get used to its effects--will be much more predictable and even more conducive to getting other things done in your life. just a thought that you might need to hear right now--that switching to buprenorphine should not be looked at as a "downer" or a "drag". it's more like a super-long-lasting opiate that will allow you to think about something other than drugs.
-DICK

Reputation Comments on this post:

	great advice and well thought out post
	very well said and true

[baron samedi]

Thanks to evryone for the advice and reassurance. Whereas SWIM was secretly pining to be put on meth, just as an experiment and an escape from his life's stresses, he now feels a lot more confident of the effectiveness of subutex. Frankly, SWIM has already wasted enough of his life without the help of meth, so he hasn't really got much time to play with, in terms of getting back on track.
AFA his pod addiction goes, he is getting tired of continually having to up his dosage every few weeks, and even then the buzz he's getting is becoming more and more subtle as time goes by.
Just as an afterthought, SWIM also takes 30mg Paroxetine and 5mg Olanzapine. When he starts on the subutex would it be worth him considering reducing either or both of these drugs, in order for the subutex to really have an impact on him? In other words, will either drug reduce the efficacy of buprenorphine, in terms of its positive effects? In the long term SWIM would like to come off anti-psychotics and anti-depressants, and wonders whether starting the bupes might be a good oppurtunity to decrease or finish his usage of these, while at the same time, decreasing the likelihood of diluting the bupe in any way?

[Richard_smoker]

swim thinks swiy should just stop the pods & start the buprenorphine & keep the other meds exactly as they are. once you're far into the bupe, you might come off the paroxatine, but then as soon as you stop the bupe, you're gonna wish you were back on the antidepressant.

so best thing is don't change anything but the pods to bupe. then you can get off the bupe whenever you & your doctor want to and it won't throw you totally out of whack.
-DICK

what's the olanzapine for? sleep? if so, you might be able to stop these when swiy is on the bupe as it is somewhat sedating in terms of 24/day. you'll be much more sleepy at night in other words, and probably a little during the day some as well, but nothing like methadone. with bupe, you might not have a single CLUE why you're so tired during the day--until you stop it.

[baron samedi]

SWIM's been on olanzapine for many years, since he had a psychotic episode. In his opinion he has been on it for far too long, without it making a significant improvement on his mental health. He has wanted to come off it for a while, just to see what life is like without it.
It does kind of help with his sleep, but he still takes zopiclone every night as well. This is since he gave up cannabis earlier this year, which had been his long term sleep aid. He thinks maybe going on bupe might be a good opportunity to try quitting the olanzapine and zopiclone, as it may help him to sleep properly in any case.