any addict trying to quit. please read (Rational Recovery)

[teddybearpicnics]

:rational recovery:

swim's parents recently found something called rational recovery on the interweb. swim read this and it actually made a lot of sense. addiction is not a disease, it's a conscious choice that we make every day to get high. when sickness comes in yes it is a sickness. but that's it. just like any other sickness you go to the doctor and get some suboxone, take them for a month, and then you will not have wd's. swim is not a heartless bastard that thinks junkies are wusses. this just opened swims eyes and made him realize that the way we get treated in n.a. and rehabs is just a way to keep you addicted, it babies you, one step at a time, oh if you relapse that's just a part of recovery. that's bullshit. i think if anyone reads this and looks at it with an open mind and doesn't read into it too literally, just pulls out the parts that are actually meant to ignite the spark in swiy's minds. that it will make alot of sense. swim has been an addict for 4 years, is an iv user, and gets good smack. so don't for a second think that i am one of those assholes that are like you are a stupid junkie and just get over it. but really, if you can get suboxone, it's not going to cost you more than your dope habit for the month. and it's not like methadone where you get wd's from it. use a taper chart. and make the choice. swim loves every one of you wookies and wishes that anyone who is trying to get clean, will read this, and the spark will turn into a fire. when swim read it he promised his parents he would stop that day, and was clean for a month and never felt so good about it, then his girlfriend kind of peer pressured him into using, not really but if it wasn't for her he would have never scored himself, and had a slight slip up for a week or so. but swim also is back on the clean and sober track. and if you read my other post from the 21'st about needing some words, you will find out my situation and how tempted swim is to use. but swim is going to stay strong and jsut keep focused on being sober. much love.
.teddy

here is the thing that compelled me to read more...the cheesy song at the beginning is lame and would only be cool if you covered it around christmas time in your band.

• If you’re drinking/using today, you won’t learn much of anything. Come back in the morning or when you aren’t under the influence.


• To quit your addiction you must first stop drinking/using long enough to learn AVRT®.

• Addiction recovery is not a group project; it is an individual responsibility. You are ultimately on your own.

• There are no Rational Recovery groups anywhere in the world! Your desire for “support” is nothing more, and nothing less, than a plan to get loaded in the absence of support.

• There is nothing in your past, in your genes, in your brain, or in your personality that compels you to drink or use. Using is voluntary, purposeful behavior.

• The sole cause of your addiction is a voice in your head that tells you to “Do it!” in a thousand different ways. That is your Addictive Voice.

• Personal problems don’t cause addiction; addiction causes your personal problems.

• Self-improvement does not result in addiction recovery. Recovery leads to self-improvement.

• You drink or use because you love to get high. Admit it!

• The worst possible way to quit something you love is one-day-at-a-
time.

• Stay away from recovery groups of all kinds; you can’t possibly recover
there. They’ll never let you go, and you’ll be “in recovery” forever.

• Stay away from shrinks; most substance abuse counselors are members of recovery groups, unable to trust themselves without evening supervision. The rest have never been addicted, and can only guess at what addiction is and what to do about it.

• Your physician can’t help you with your addiction; he may even be supporting it. Most refer to recovery groups, to which many of them belong. However, they do have good treatments for withdrawal, if you are in danger of seizures.

• Consider that the real truth about addiction and recovery lies in the exact opposite of most popular beliefs.

• Recall your original family values, the ideas about right and wrong you knew by the age of 5 or 6. Those are your foundation for addiction recovery.

• Your beliefs about God are fine, whether you believe or not. Sound, sprititual growth may only follow AVRT-based recovery, when your thoughts are not biased by the mandate of addiction.

• AVRT-based recovery is as difficult as you make it, and takes as long as you choose.

• If you won’t trust yourself, why should anyone else?

• Get authentic Rational Recovery® learning materials.

here is the link

http://www.rational.org

also if this helps any swiy's...give me some props in the form of those little green and orange bars. haha

[dyingtomorrow]

SWIM had good experiences with New Path.

Ahem - thanks for the link. SWIM doesn't want to recover, but will check it out anyways.

[teddybearpicnics]

haha yeah...swim doesn't know if he's ready either. butttttt still...good read

[Dickon]

I've been to the rational recovery site. It has some good ideas, but I'm afraid I'm of the opinion that it's mostly wrong, and potentially dangerous. It's probably fine for some people, but the placebo effect is powerful, and I'm afraid that although the disease concept of addiction is not necessarily the whole picture, for some us it is useful. For example, why was I an addictive personality long before I discovered drugs? If there was no "disease", why does rational recovery tell "alcoholics" or "ex-alcoholics" never to drink again? Surely if they don't have a disease or moral failing they should be able to drink normally? Maybe my cat should be able to "chip" a bit of opiates now and again. But twice he's tried this, after periods of nearly 2 years and nearly 18 months off everything including alcohol. Each time he got a habit back.

I've written about some of what I don't like about rational recovery in another post. It's on a thread called something like "Non-NA recovery organizations". I think it's better to be honest and admit our cats our not like other cats. "Recovery groups" are not responsible for the relapsing nature of addiction. I think as research into brain chemistry gets more advanced it will be discovered that heavy opiate users make permanent changes to our brains from such use. For instance, ask yourself, how much quicker did it take you to acquire your second habit than your first?

Just so you know, my cat quit methadone about 5 weeks ago, and has not been going to any recovery groups. He went to one aftercare session, because he wants to avail himself of the alternative treatments (accupuncture, massage etc) that he knows will make him purr. So I do believe that one can quit by self-motivation, however I have to say in the past I learnt a lot in rehab and NA. Some of it I don't agree with, but a lot of it I do agree with. If you're new to quitting, try not to be too smart. It is really helpful to have knowledgable people helping and advising. If you're asked to do something that makes no sense, simply do it! Willingness counts for a lot more than intellectual prowess. Dyingtomorrow is super-bright, and although I'm educationally subnormal myself, it never stopped me from getting a PhD. Addiction does not spare the smart people, in fact I think being smart makes it more likely one will become an addict! [Conjecture].

Oh, and where's the peer-reviewed evaluation of Rational Recovery? Personally I'd say recognising the addictive voice is a really good thing to do. But they say that in NA meetings too, so the copyrighting of AVRT is a bit rich, it's a new name for a well-known concept. It's not an original idea. I'm also damned if I'm going to say it's a lack of willpower that gave me my habits. I don't think there's anything harder than doing a full-on w.d. Lack of will-power is not what I see in myself and others who have quit. It's something else, something not like other folk. Call it being special if you prefer, but non-addicts don't think like our cats think. Addict cats I can usually spot (not always drug addict cats, but addictive personality type cats) fairly quickly even if they are ex-addict cats in some sense. Over long years things may change, but it's not simply a case of putting down the drugs, and voila, one's normal again!

Oh and buprenorphine (suboxone, subutex) is a useful tool, but it does not eliminate withdrawals. Far far from it. Just ask my friend Dick (Richard_Smoker) if you don't believe me. His dog just quit the stuff, and believe you me, he suffered almost as much, maybe even as much, as my cat did coming of methadone. I think the advice above about a quick taper is good.

Quit first! Ask questions later! Say you're a pumpkin if you think it will help. Better to be silly and clean, than all pompous and righteous and still bang at it. If I'm sounding hypocritical it's only because this time I had learnt so much from others in former years, that when I quit this time I had all the knowledge, realistic expectations as to difficulty, coping strategies learnt from nearly 3 1/2 years off drugs. I still asked for advice, I just didn't take much of the advice I was given! Anyway enough burbling on. Best of luck to you. It's doable, and I've started a new thread "Dreaming in the Night Air" in this section, which is specifically a place for people who have quit to talk about the life post-withdrawal. DF is a great resource; lots of really good people.

Love and fluffies to all

Dickon

[Junkhead23]

• Personal problems don’t cause addiction; addiction causes your personal problems.

WRONG WRONG WRONG Although addiction can cause more problems SWIM does not agree with personal problems do not cause addiction. If SWIM did not suffer from depression SWIM would probablky have never got such a habit.


• There is nothing in your past, in your genes, in your brain, or in your personality that compels you to drink or use. Using is voluntary, purposeful behavior.

Depression anxiety, abuse?

[teddybearpicnics]

Hey everyone, this teddy originally said that this is a gathering of ideas, and that none of your wolverines should read it word for word. This is more or less for someone who is having a problem, and doesn't want to go to rehab, or has other situations ::family, friends, a good job:: that they want to try and do this on their own.

recovery is not a very new concept, people have been drunks and addicts since the beginning of time. so of course this "rational" recovery will have overlapping answers of N.A. or whatever else is out there. I think that the text they provide gives you the awaking slap that a lot of us need. it did for this muskrat. swim has been to all of these recovery groups, and while they did give words of advice, being with a bunch of other junkies talking about it all the time always made swim want to go use even more. There are so many complications that go a long with this addiction treatment...and swim thought that the way they put it as ::you are going to do it, or you are going to keep doing it:: was true, and no matter whether its' rational, or n.a. or whatever else it is, it will never work until you're ready for it to work. and swim thinks that if you are ready...then you could skip the whole process of actually going to rehab, and just bury your head in that literature, and use your time to do whatever will better YOU. you know?

swim was just trying to help, he also thought that some of the text was bullshit, but on the same hand he realizes what it is trying to do. and whenever swim fully commits. he will be using a mix of both rational, and n.a. meetings. this teddy just isn't ready yet.

teddybearpicnics added 14 Minutes and 2 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by Dickon

the disease concept of addiction is not necessarily the whole picture, for some us it is useful. For example, why was I an addictive personality long before I discovered drugs? If there was no "disease", why does rational recovery tell "alcoholics" or "ex-alcoholics" never to drink again? Surely if they don't have a disease or moral failing they should be able to drink normally? Maybe my cat should be able to "chip" a bit of opiates now and again. But twice he's tried this, after periods of nearly 2 years and nearly 18 months off everything including alcohol. Each time he got a habit back.

swim also had an addictive personality growing up, and to be honest he remembers being about 12 years old and thinking to himself, "swim is going to be a drug addict" long before he had ever seen a drug. so addictive personality aside, swim thinks wholeheartedly that in his own life, that side of him never made him use drugs, swim used drugs for 4 years before he was anywhere near addicted to anything, other than nicotine. it was always out of curiosity. Swim agrees with your quote about being smart making you an addict. Swim always thought he was too smart for his own good. Swiy is reading too much into what swim says, swim is a very sarcastic, nonchalant, writer...so everything should not be taken to seriously. Swim does think though, that whenever he was trying to be clean, that if he had better will-power, he would have abstained. Now that is just this teddybear, everyone has their own course of actions.

Dyingtomorrow is super-bright, and although I'm educationally subnormal myself, it never stopped me from getting a PhD. Addiction does not spare the smart people, in fact I think being smart makes it more likely one will become an addict! [Conjecture].

Quit first! Ask questions later! Say you're a pumpkin if you think it will help. Better to be silly and clean, than all pompous and righteous and still bang at it. If I'm sounding hypocritical it's only because this time I had learnt so much from others in former years, that when I quit this time I had all the knowledge, realistic expectations as to difficulty, coping strategies learnt from nearly 3 1/2 years off drugs. I still asked for advice, I just didn't take much of the advice I was given! Anyway enough burbling on. Best of luck to you. It's doable, and I've started a new thread "Dreaming in the Night Air" in this section, which is specifically a place for people who have quit to talk about the life post-withdrawal. DF is a great resource; lots of really good people.

Love and fluffies to all

Dickon

swim knows dyingtomorrow is bright, he actually enjoys reading his posts. this teddybear is not ready yet to completely get off...even though he knows he should, it's just not possible right now. he also appreciates your words but swim gets the idea that swiy thinks he is inexperienced in knowledge regarding some issues, and that's okay. swim can accept that. he also wishes you the best. and knows that our dogs and bears will talk again soon.
.teddy

[Gappa]

I personally know stepping into this sort of arena can be dangerous. One person says my way is right or that is the way to go to get clean. I was looking over Curt Cobain's tribute website and read his suicide note today, I was 15 when he killed himself.. I realized that whatever works for you that can keep you from taking that "dirt nap" and keep you with your children and loved ones.
That's what they say in NA. One is too much and a thousand is never enough. And there is nothing down that road but jails, institutions, and death.
There is too much truth to these words to discount and discredit them.

Gappa added 6 Minutes and 21 Seconds later...

It never ceases to amaze me the stupidity of some people. I'm watching on TV the idiots on the merry go round propelled by the rear wheel of a motorcycle. Oh yeah go on youtube and watch the "drunk slingshot"

[ellie2]

Who needs addiction clinics when there's kratom out there?

[Gappa]

What the fuck is kratom? SWIM has heard of this stuff all over the forum but what is it?

Gappa added 13 Minutes and 34 Seconds later...

It is quite interesting to me to see the ages of some of the test monkeys out here.. The younger ones all say they are not ready to quit up to a point of about 28 years old then after that the "older dogs" start to change their view above 30years old seems to be about the time we "wake up". If anyone had told me at 26 that at 33 I would be saying the things SWIM does he would have told them to get straight fucked. Very interesting! Once this shit has run it's FULL course I guess ones views change. Once you see for yourself what the shit is actually doing to your life.. Man I don't mean to be preachin and shit.. I don't wish this shit and suffering I have gone through on my worst enemy. Not that SWIM has any enemies but SWIY gets the idea.

[mightyhigh]

...you go to the doctor and get some suboxone, take them for a month, and then you will not have wd's...

Hi Teddy have to say interesting, argee with some parts, unfotunately dont the rest tho wish i did get it maybe it'l help get out of this shit!

What I want to ask is have you tried suboxone? I'm thinking about it myself, tryin 2 see if its available here. Did you really get no w/d's?

[klonopinz]

Swim reckons that the only easy way to get rid of a tolerated drugs effects aka (addiction/withdrawal) is a long-term coma, and those who promote or display this "you can do it" image and employ pyramid schemes filled with novel yet unfounded ideas to attract people who don't know any better deserve to suffer in the same way those who they abuse suffer.

Swim doesn't really want help from people that make money out of it (notice the ®'s and the "get authentic material" remark). Similarly, Swim wants no help either from people that require me to follow any kind of dogma, or people that employ such beliefs in their helping strategies. Swim thinks these people have a bigger addiction than the ones they help; they just can't see their side effects.

To end, Swim would like to quote from the rational.org website:

"By its nature, AVRT® is not and cannot be a professional tool. AVRT® is not a form of counseling, therapy, or addiction treatment. If AVRT® is offered as a professional service, diluted as an adjunct to any other recovery methodology or treatment, or included in the program of a recovery group, its fundamental meaning is radically changed. "

So, in order to successfully go through AVTR which the addict should not go through in the first place, the addict should stay away from other types of support groups, shrinks and doctors, which none can do no good, yet Rational's legal documentation expresses that it should only be follow in conjunction with any of the previously mentioned and not allowed... Also, the first FAQ, answering what they are, is just opposite of that said and stated in the above quote...

Swim may be fuckin' high, but he ain't fuckin' slow.*klonopinz shares Dickon's conjecture correlating "smartness" and "addiction potential"*. Swim rather be a drug addict than a mindless cult member or someone who profits from Swiy's misery. Shit, Swim would rather overdose than submit to further abusing of others.

[teddybearpicnics]

Originally Posted by mightyhigh

...you go to the doctor and get some suboxone, take them for a month, and then you will not have wd's...

Hi Teddy have to say interesting, argee with some parts, unfotunately dont the rest tho wish i did get it maybe it'l help get out of this shit!

What I want to ask is have you tried suboxone? I'm thinking about it myself, tryin 2 see if its available here. Did you really get no w/d's?

yes swim is on suboxone, and if he wakes up sick as hell, 4-8 mg's will kill his w.d.'s in about 20 minutes...it also brings back swims urge to do something other than dope. it really does work for the initial getting of, although swim has heard that there is a possibility to have w.d.'s from coming off suboxone, butttt swim has never experienced this, and thinks that it is people who are taking very high doses for about a year or more..swim thinks that you should only use it for a month and at the end of the month taper down...after all, dope w.d.'s are not that long...sure you might have sleep problems but get some benzos or something, unless you are going substance free, then you're just going to have to deal with it.

Originally Posted by klonopinz

Swim reckons that the only easy way to get rid of a tolerated drugs effects aka (addiction/withdrawal) is a long-term coma, and those who promote or display this "you can do it" image and employ pyramid schemes filled with novel yet unfounded ideas to attract people who don't know any better deserve to suffer in the same way those who they abuse suffer.

Swim doesn't really want help from people that make money out of it (notice the ®'s and the "get authentic material" remark). Similarly, Swim wants no help either from people that require me to follow any kind of dogma, or people that employ such beliefs in their helping strategies. Swim thinks these people have a bigger addiction than the ones they help; they just can't see their side effects.

To end, Swim would like to quote from the rational.org website:

"By its nature, AVRT® is not and cannot be a professional tool. AVRT® is not a form of counseling, therapy, or addiction treatment. If AVRT® is offered as a professional service, diluted as an adjunct to any other recovery methodology or treatment, or included in the program of a recovery group, its fundamental meaning is radically changed. "

So, in order to successfully go through AVTR which the addict should not go through in the first place, the addict should stay away from other types of support groups, shrinks and doctors, which none can do no good, yet Rational's legal documentation expresses that it should only be follow in conjunction with any of the previously mentioned and not allowed... Also, the first FAQ, answering what they are, is just opposite of that said and stated in the above quote...

Swim may be fuckin' high, but he ain't fuckin' slow.*klonopinz shares Dickon's conjecture correlating "smartness" and "addiction potential"*. Swim rather be a drug addict than a mindless cult member or someone who profits from Swiy's misery. Shit, Swim would rather overdose than submit to further abusing of others.

swim never asked anyone to follow this site like a cult...he just simply suggested to read a little bit about it, with the fact that it's a conscious choice to use and the addictive voice and your own brain being two different people, etc...people can dissagree and agree with whatever they want...but why talk bad about something that could possibly help someone, as it did swim....?
.teddy

[klonopinz]

Klonopinz replied:

"Just because something worked for you, doesn't mean it actually works, or will work for anyone else, and that should not be the reason you promote it to others, although you have every right to do so, just as I have the right to issue mine.

My first comments where directed to whomever it concerns. It seems that what I said somehow made you click though. Did I offend you in any way? I hope not.

As of to why talk negatively (why not?): To maybe avoid DF users not to be abused by some other money sucking ploy, or to put forth the actual facts you might have overlooked, since you were part of it, and you may have not noticed, and to expose the flaws of the system, to further understand the topic of addiction recovery.

If Swiy would REALLY like to help, he would tell users how much they charge for their "materials" and for "joining" them. What is the process like, what where the bad things about it, what he would have changed. Your first post just seems like a shameless plug IMHO.
"...

[beena]

SWIM disagrees that 'personal problems don't cause addiction, addiction causes personal problems'. A lot of people turn to drugs because of personal problems. And usually the drugs work for those problems at first so you keep on using. That is why you get hooked. It is only when you're hooked that your life goes to the shitter. Then addiction causes personal problems. But if you wanna stop you have to address the reasons you turned to drugs in the first place otherwise you have a seriously strong likelihood of relapsing. Fact.

[klonopinz]

Originally Posted by beena

SWIM disagrees that 'personal problems don't cause addiction, addiction causes personal problems'. A lot of people turn to drugs because of personal problems. And usually the drugs work for those problems at first so you keep on using. That is why you get hooked. It is only when you're hooked that your life goes to the shitter. Then addiction causes personal problems. But if you wanna stop you have to address the reasons you turned to drugs in the first place otherwise you have a seriously strong likelihood of relapsing. Fact.

Klonopinz, if seeking addiction help, would gladly pay to get help from persons with this non judgmental perception.

[beena]

SWIM doesn't like it when addicts (or anyone discussing addiction) gets into a discussion about which way works or is right. Different models seem to work for different people and as long as it works that's great. One thing that SWIM has noticed though is that when an addict finds something that works they seem to become obsessed with it if they're not careful and do seem to insist that their way is the right way. SWIMs boyfriend too has been to about four rehab facilities, unfortunately none of them worked. They all seemed to follow the 12 steps programme and he really rebelled against it. He had reservations before he went in because of the religious tone of the literature but SWIM asked him to go in with an open mind and he agreed saying that he refused to take a religious stance but that he would take what he could from the programme and sure enough he phoned me up quite excited saying that the higher power you're asked to submit yourself to in step one didn't have to be 'god' but whatever was meaningful to you so that was ok and could be interpreted how he wanted to interpret it but very quickly his stance towards the 12 steps became negative. At the last rehab he was in he was really flooded with NA thinking and was taken to a minimum of 4 meetings a week. At first he seemed to embrace it but then he started referring to the people who went regularly as the 'NA nazi's'. He got himself thrown out of that rehab and hasn't been in treatment since.
A friend of ours recently came out of treatment for heroin addiction and SWIMs boyfriend ran into him the other day. SWIM doesn't know what conversation they had but when he came home he said he didn't want to see this fella for a while cos he was 'spouting NA talk'. SWIM said it was probably because he was energised by being clean and that he needed something to fill his time and throw himself into and NA was obviously that. SWIMs boyfriend said that it was different and that he'd 'seen it before'. SWIM quizzed him further and he said that some people at NA had a tendency to be 'fascist about it' and 'take it too far'. SWIM get asking him about it. She said that when she tries to get clean next month she was planning on going to some meetings - she's never been before - and that she wanted him to come with her. He said he would providing she didn't let it run her life and become one of the 'NA nazis'.
One of the things that seemed to bother him was the way some people took the steps so literally and were so thorough with it. He even mentioned one of the steps that requires the addict to 'make ammends' for things they did that were wrong or hurt other people as a result of taking drugs. He mentioned as an example a guy he knew at rehab who was paying back money he had stolen to his parents even though this guy was on benefits himself. As SWIMs boyfriend was a prolific shoplifter over the years SWIM did have to wonder if his intense dislike for NA and the 12 steps was because he didn't want to have to undertake the tasks that certain steps demanded or that he felt he couldn't even if he wanted too. I dunno - I guess he does have a point though.

As for SWIM - she has been an addict for 9 years but she has used drugs of one sort or another for 15 years. Since being an addict she has tried to stop numerous times. She has tried staying in the community once and taking methadone - it didn't work. But most of the time SWIM has gone out of the area and stayed with family in an area in which she doesn't know any dealers. Thats been fine for a short time but when she goes back home she relapses. Every time. SWIM has never been to a rehab or a detox or NA even so she has had any long-term plan or support to get clean.
In less than 2 weeks time SWIM is going home again for 3 weeks to get clean. This time SWIM wants to stay clean so when she gets back she is gonna try everything that she can think of. So far this includes going to NA meetings: SWIM plans to go at least once a week with her boyfriend, but there is also a CA group which if for women only at a nearby drug clinic and SWIM intends to try that too. SWIM is also going to go to a nearby drug clinic and get an individual drug-counsellor for one-to-one counselliing. At this same clinic they do alternative therapies such as acupuncture and reiki - SWIM intends to try that. SWIM is also going to get help from her university by accessing student services - there are counsellors there she can speak too. Also SWIM plans on exercising and eating better. So, as you can see SWIM is keeping her options open. I do think there is a risk that people can become obseesive about things like NA and although this is probably harmless (well, SWIM would rather be hooked on NA than drugs put it that way), it would be better to have a more considered outlook. SWIM doesn't know what will work for her yet but she hopes something will and she is willing to try anything. Good luck to anyone else trying to do the same.

[klonopinz]

Originally Posted by beena

SWIM doesn't like it when addicts (or anyone discussing addiction) gets into a discussion about which way works or is right. Different models seem to work for different people and as long as it works that's great. One thing that SWIM has noticed though is that when an addict finds something that works they seem to become obsessed with it if they're not careful and do seem to insist that their way is the right way. SWIMs boyfriend too has been to about four rehab facilities, unfortunately none of them worked. They all seemed to follow the 12 steps programme and he really rebelled against it. He had reservations before he went in because of the religious tone of the literature but SWIM asked him to go in with an open mind and he agreed saying that he refused to take a religious stance but that he would take what he could from the programme and sure enough he phoned me up quite excited saying that the higher power you're asked to submit yourself to in step one didn't have to be 'god' but whatever was meaningful to you so that was ok and could be interpreted how he wanted to interpret it but very quickly his stance towards the 12 steps became negative. At the last rehab he was in he was really flooded with NA thinking and was taken to a minimum of 4 meetings a week. At first he seemed to embrace it but then he started referring to the people who went regularly as the 'NA nazi's'. He got himself thrown out of that rehab and hasn't been in treatment since.
A friend of ours recently came out of treatment for heroin addiction and SWIMs boyfriend ran into him the other day. SWIM doesn't know what conversation they had but when he came home he said he didn't want to see this fella for a while cos he was 'spouting NA talk'. SWIM said it was probably because he was energised by being clean and that he needed something to fill his time and throw himself into and NA was obviously that. SWIMs boyfriend said that it was different and that he'd 'seen it before'. SWIM quizzed him further and he said that some people at NA had a tendency to be 'fascist about it' and 'take it too far'. SWIM get asking him about it. She said that when she tries to get clean next month she was planning on going to some meetings - she's never been before - and that she wanted him to come with her. He said he would providing she didn't let it run her life and become one of the 'NA nazis'.
One of the things that seemed to bother him was the way some people took the steps so literally and were so thorough with it. He even mentioned one of the steps that requires the addict to 'make ammends' for things they did that were wrong or hurt other people as a result of taking drugs. He mentioned as an example a guy he knew at rehab who was paying back money he had stolen to his parents even though this guy was on benefits himself. As SWIMs boyfriend was a prolific shoplifter over the years SWIM did have to wonder if his intense dislike for NA and the 12 steps was because he didn't want to have to undertake the tasks that certain steps demanded or that he felt he couldn't even if he wanted too. I dunno - I guess he does have a point though.

As for SWIM - she has been an addict for 9 years but she has used drugs of one sort or another for 15 years. Since being an addict she has tried to stop numerous times. She has tried staying in the community once and taking methadone - it didn't work. But most of the time SWIM has gone out of the area and stayed with family in an area in which she doesn't know any dealers. Thats been fine for a short time but when she goes back home she relapses. Every time. SWIM has never been to a rehab or a detox or NA even so she has had any long-term plan or support to get clean.
In less than 2 weeks time SWIM is going home again for 3 weeks to get clean. This time SWIM wants to stay clean so when she gets back she is gonna try everything that she can think of. So far this includes going to NA meetings: SWIM plans to go at least once a week with her boyfriend, but there is also a CA group which if for women only at a nearby drug clinic and SWIM intends to try that too. SWIM is also going to go to a nearby drug clinic and get an individual drug-counsellor for one-to-one counselliing. At this same clinic they do alternative therapies such as acupuncture and reiki - SWIM intends to try that. SWIM is also going to get help from her university by accessing student services - there are counsellors there she can speak too. Also SWIM plans on exercising and eating better. So, as you can see SWIM is keeping her options open. I do think there is a risk that people can become obseesive about things like NA and although this is probably harmless (well, SWIM would rather be hooked on NA than drugs put it that way), it would be better to have a more considered outlook. SWIM doesn't know what will work for her yet but she hopes something will and she is willing to try anything. Good luck to anyone else trying to do the same.

Klonopinz clonazepam wanted to say:

"Thanks for sharing. That's a great insight on the overall experience and paths addiction and withdrawal walks you through.

But I don't believe what you say that as long as it "works" for swiy it should shared, mainly because we have no idea how it actually "works". The fact that you don't intake drugs anymore, for instance, is not evidence enough to prove it worked, even after long periods of time, since I define a non-addict as someone who can take a substance and not lose any sense of empowerment because of it. Although you completed the program, are drug-free and have no withdrawal, you still can't take it, and if you do, you won't be ready to deal with it accordingly and stop the vicious cycle which will follow, and if not the though of doing so would probably always linger around.

More so, if you require people to agree to belief dogmatically before you allow assistance then IMHO, you are just changing one bad experience for another. I, again respectfully disagree, but I would rather be hooked on drugs than on NA. Shit I would even get Hooked on Phonics (heheh lame lol).

Your bf's analogy to God meaning anything you want it to be is useful though. But remember, misinformation is the #1 addiction gateway, and information is just the opposite; your best defense. This should be the key factor when choosing help.

[teddybearpicnics]

Originally Posted by klonopinz

Klonopinz replied:

"Just because something worked for you, doesn't mean it actually works, or will work for anyone else, and that should not be the reason you promote it to others, although you have every right to do so, just as I have the right to issue mine.

My first comments where directed to whomever it concerns. It seems that what I said somehow made you click though. Did I offend you in any way? I hope not.

As of to why talk negatively (why not?): To maybe avoid DF users not to be abused by some other money sucking ploy, or to put forth the actual facts you might have overlooked, since you were part of it, and you may have not noticed, and to expose the flaws of the system, to further understand the topic of addiction recovery.

If Swiy would REALLY like to help, he would tell users how much they charge for their "materials" and for "joining" them. What is the process like, what where the bad things about it, what he would have changed. Your first post just seems like a shameless plug IMHO.
"...

Ummm...Swim is confused here, just because something worked for him, doesn't mean it actually works..? Well doesn't that prove that it somehow worked if it got him to stop when nothing else would.? Also, if something worked for him, should he not try and get it out there that ::hey, this helped me, it might help you too:: ?? Isn't that a part of recovering, sharing your insight to help others feel good about getting away from something they love so dearly?

As far as offending swim in previous posts, swim didn't go back and read the whole thread, it's a forum...swim isn't going to be pissed off about something swiy wrote.

This is a forum for recovery...and specifically this thread was made for the SOLE purpose of giving a tool that could be used, if wanted, to try and expand the consciousness of an addict to a realization that would make recovering a little bit easier...Swim is not a dedicated follower to this system. He just read a few pages of literature that did something he has never found before...A simple synopsis of the addictive life, and a simple solution.

Swim didn't know that it cost money to read a website, he sure didn't buy any books, he definitly didn't join any group...he just read the lit on the site, and it made sense...it seems as if swim offended you by trying to help...?

Someone like swiy doesn't even sound like he should be posting in the recovery forum, with comments like he'd rather be hooked on drugs than n.a....this thread is for getting off drugs, not bashing people who are trying to find an alternative lifestyle. As far as a shameless plug goes, swim guesses that's right, read a couple pages of an internet site for free and maybe it will help swiy. How shameless.

Anyway...this was not a flame on you kpins. Swim just thought that you're coming off, in this thread, like there's no hope, and that you should just stay on drugs because everything everyone is saying is wrong...Swim could be wrong, and he also respects your opinions, he just doesn't think they're placed in the right spot. Much love to all of you, this thread is getting out of hand and as the OP swim would like to ask that this doesn't turn into an all out napalm.
.teddy

[klonopinz]

klonopinz told swim:
"
OP, like I said, just because you think it works, it is not actual proof that it did, or that it might help other people (think of it as anti-psychotics, most psychotics take them, and they seem to work, but some shouldn't, like Bipolar II's, cause might make it worse.) Also, what you define as "worked" might not be what others do, therefore you might not be actually helping, but causing more issues, like making a person feel he's trying and failing. And sharing might be part of "recovery process" for you, but I don't see much sharing, IF ANY, in proselytism, since there always seem to be a list of ideas I must submit and follow, but I don't get to write my list of things they should think of and consider.

Someone who is helping because of his personal theologetic beliefs or faith, should help everyone in need, regardless if they do or don't share beliefs you do. Or at least that's what they should do, based on their main theologetic dogma. At most, imho, dogmatic coping mechanisms should only be offered to those who originally feel and believe in whatever they might enforce all to think. So perhaps, a more appropiate topic for this thread would be: any "christian" addict trying to quit. please read.
"
Swim does respect each persons freedom of opinion, and freedom to share these.

[youdontknow]

The biggest problem i have with that is it saying that its not a disease. It is a disease. Ask any doctor.

[beena]

Originally Posted by klonopinz

Klonopinz clonazepam wanted to say:

"Thanks for sharing. That's a great insight on the overall experience and paths addiction and withdrawal walks you through.

But I don't believe what you say that as long as it "works" for swiy it should shared, mainly because we have no idea how it actually "works". The fact that you don't intake drugs anymore, for instance, is not evidence enough to prove it worked, even after long periods of time, since I define a non-addict as someone who can take a substance and not lose any sense of empowerment because of it. Although you completed the program, are drug-free and have no withdrawal, you still can't take it, and if you do, you won't be ready to deal with it accordingly and stop the vicious cycle which will follow, and if not the though of doing so would probably always linger around.

More so, if you require people to agree to belief dogmatically before you allow assistance then IMHO, you are just changing one bad experience for another. I, again respectfully disagree, but I would rather be hooked on drugs than on NA. Shit I would even get Hooked on Phonics (heheh lame lol).

Your bf's analogy to God meaning anything you want it to be is useful though. But remember, misinformation is the #1 addiction gateway, and information is just the opposite; your best defense. This should be the key factor when choosing help.

How can SWI-Klonopinz say that he'd rather be hooked on drugs than NA? Seriously?! SWIMs boyfriend says exactly the same thing: he really loathes what he calls the "NA-nazi's", who give up drugs by following the 12 steps religiously to the point that NA in turn becomes the centre that their lives pivot around. But SWIM says 'so what?'. I mean how can it be worse than drugs. You're not gonna get a criminal record from NA, you're not putting your life at risk going to NA, you're probably not gonna isolate friends and family by going to NA - you may even make new friends, you're not gonna find yourself doing things that you would never dare do if you were clean/sober - the sort of things that make you ashamed - by going to NA, you're not going to spend all your money at NA, etc,etc ... you get my point though right?
How can be addicted to NA possibly be worse than being addicted to drugs? Someone, please explain that one to be ....

[klonopinz]

-- The biggest problem i have with that is it saying that its not a disease. It is a disease. Ask any doctor.
Well why would doctors know this? Their job is to diagnose and treat diseases, no to establish which are or are not. They might believe, or have a personal opinion base on their track record, but "doctors" have little to do with the discovery or classification of diseases. That's the duty of the United States Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) cabinet (aka politicians).


--
You're not gonna get a criminal record from NA, you're not putting your life at risk going to NA, you're probably not gonna isolate friends and family by going to NA - you may even make new friends, you're not gonna find yourself doing things that you would never dare do if you were clean/sober - the sort of things that make you ashamed - by going to NA, you're not going to spend all your money at NA, etc,etc ... you get my point though right?
--

Are you sure of that? In today's world, a $40 device can be use to document everything & everyone coming in and out of a meeting. Furthermore, did you know there is nothing Anonymous about Narcotic Anonymous or the like? You should really consider this X-A meetings as just another way for a) government to keep tabs on "persons of interest" through "help" and b) religious fanatics to get an opportunity to be heard by particularly weak individuals. God bless America; after all... In GOD we Trust!


Seriously, read the questions they ask you to answer: say you believe in God, and all the bad things you have done since, and to mention people and details too. EVEN MAKE LISTS which waves your 5th Amendment! If taken to court, all the things you say will be used against you.

When someone really is helping, they won't ask anything from you; on the contrary they SHOULD be willing to do everything for the person in need, like NOT MENTION his faith, if the person is not interested. (Remember, they are the better ones, and the addict is the lesser, so WHO should step up?) Is it really help if you only help those that believe the things you impose? Maybe if they help regardless, much more people will naturally get involved with the religion, at their own pace.

[Ilsa]

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70274

^^^similar thread

http://www.defeataddictions.org/Models-Of-Recovery.html

^^^outlines several different models for recovery in addition to that of NA/AA

[klonopinz]

--
Well, Klonopinz,swim would think that "scientists" who discover and classify diseases are almost certainly doctors with medical training and education, or biologists at least, because how else would they know what they are looking at? Disease is biological in nature and biology is a science. Human anatomy and physiology is a biological science and swim believes that diesease is also a biological science. Who, in swiy's opinion, does discover and classify diseases? Swim watches "The Learning Channel and Discovery and even medical "dramas" like ER , House, Bones, and Grey's anatomy, lol . all she ever sees playing around with the slides is doctors, scientists, and a few labrats.
--
The Government. They assign whoever they know will come to the conclusions they what people to believe. Are you really suppose to eat 3 meals a day because your doc tells ya? He/She HAS to say this because in order to practice medicine (not DEVELOP it) they have to follow all guidelines established, including FDA's nutritional recommendations. Ever wonder how humans are really meant to eat; after all we are nomads right?

Similarly, when a higher power says it's an addiction they have to comply and treat accordingly, or not let BigBrother know they have a different opinion. Don't follow the standards? You'll get medically reviewed and lose your practice.

To find and develop diseases doctors usually become researchers (abandoning or delegating their practice) and further study topics related to the new field they are part of since Statistics, Biology, psychology, pharmacology, etc. will now play an important role. Also, you are not required to have an M.D. to form part in medical research investigations to classify and find diseases (and cures of).

In short, a doctors job is really to diagnose you based on whatever he has been told, and this is 99% of doctors.

[Dickon]

klonopinz,

You're negativity "shines" through here. Let's turn that frown upside down, and put a smile on your face! Now, I am a very friendly person, but when I see ideas misused I get a bit miffed. First off, let's disavail you of one common misconception. We are not all living in America. N.A., when you mention it on here, should be considered internationally, so personally, living in England, I'd not really suspect the federal government would be that interested in me, the federal government of America I mean, as there might well be other federal governments out there. This point goes for all you Americans who haven't realised that America is not the only country on Earth, and some of us poor unfortunates happen to live in the third world (i.e. anywhere not America). Now in case anyone thinks I'm anti-American, I'm not. My wife is American for one thing.

Now you do have a point about most doctors being hamstrung by guidelines. That's almost certainly true universally, certainly in a litigious culture. I've known 3 doctors who've been struck off permanently, forced to retire early, and struck off for 9 months for going against guidelines. However to assume addiction is classfied as a disease because it's what the government want people to believe, or that NA meetings are constantly surveiled is the thinking of a conspiracy theorist. Please no one tell me we didn't land on the moon here, or at least wait until after noon in my country!

klonopinz, how many NA meetings have you gone to? Is it none, or are you writing after a or several bad experiences? You see, they are not all good, My cat cleaned up the time before last and got to 8 days off opiates (morphine not methadone so 8 days was over the worst), and went to a meeting, got complained about for using clonidine without medical supervision and used the next day. I'm not saying there was a causal connection, but the love and support I needed, a few hugs, a pat on the back and a "well done" were not forthcoming. There's a "what if?" in my mind at least.

There are idiots everywhere, and drug use does not preclude idiocy. NA is not Christian, and the fact that Bill W and Dr Bob (the founders of AA. the first XA) were is by the by, "God as you understand him", not "God in the three persons of the trinity" is the phrase used. AA is not Christian, and NA certainly isn't. It's often said in NA meetings that if you have a problem with God think G.O.D. = good orderly direction. Hardly fundamentalism. God as you understand him could be a fictitional concept invented by the federal government to control individuals and save money on spying equipment. Think what you like here! That some members may be Christian is by the by. If you'd not yourself be so vulnerable and gullible as I get the feeling you think you woudn't be when some fundamentalist speaks, why do you think others would be? Organised religion works for some, and although in America the idiocy of creationism and certain social intolerances are terrifying, it's here at least for the medium term. However most NA people I know are pretty much agnostic, and are simply trying to do something spiritual. As for me, I've been meditating, not because I believe or don't believe in God (frankly I don't know what the question "Do you believe in God" even means), but because it get's me in touch with myself, and I enjoy it. If my "spiritual practice" scares you, you are easily scared; ditto if it angers or frustrates you ("What's this weirdo hippy-lunatic doing?")! There is nothing wrong with people questing for spiritual answers in an all-too-material world. Drug use causes a lot of damage to a lot of people, and there is need for healing, and it's not all healing of the obvious gross physical kind. Maybe one day our understand of brain chemistry will give us insight, but for now, we're left with the concept of "spiritual, physical and emotional" healing. I'd not like to subdivide these except on a most basic kindergarten level.

However I reserve for last a critique of what I humbly perceive to be pure unadulterated twaddle. The idea you have to understand how something works to use it is simply wrong. I don't know how my mouth makes the sounds of the words I use when I speak but I speak, and for the most part the words I want to say come out. Not always, but usually! If we have 99% of people discovering ibogaine cures addiction (it does no such thing in reality. This is hypothetical), and this is borne out by follow up research, then use it! Don't say "we don't know how it works and so someone might be in the one percent, so let's not use it". Sure, figure out why the 1% is refractive (is that the right word?) to treatment. No explanation is the last word; all understanding is contingent. For something as complicated as addiction, the fact that most treatment methods are imperfect doesn't mean don't use them. Look at them with a critical eye, and try to improve them. DF is about sharing what worked for us. I'll share my cat's story, although I'll also put caveats in about everyone being different. It's also really nice to hear of other successes. They may only last a short time, but I'll settle for being 50 days away from certain bad things. It's all I can offer. Talk to me in 20 years, maybe I can tell you about being 20 years and 50 days away then, maybe not. We have limited, imperfect, confounded data.

Erk....I've been ranting again, good job I've got to get back into 3-d land. Getting clean is doable! It's not as easy as sitting on a park bench, and involves a lot of staying awake if opiates are your thing, but I do believe something has to change at a deep level. Bill W called that a "spiritual awakening". Some might prefer the term "deep change". Why sit still for a withdrawal today, when you woudn't yesterday? Answer: somethings different between yesterday and today, even if it's just access to drugs!

I've no definitive answers, but I do know with certainty when I'm less wrong than people on some occasions! Keep smiling, and good luck to those that want to quit!

Dickon

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Well said, a round of snaps is in order!
	nice job calling bullshit ;)