Journal - Hey everyone, need some words

[teddybearpicnics]

Ok everyone swim would like to introduce himself. Swims name is teddy, and swim hasn't posted much on these forums, but is always reading them.

Swim has been an addict for four years now, and has been in a relationship for over a year with a fine young lady, who is also an addict. We were living together and we both lost our jobs in the same week. Had to move back home. Beat city. My girl has a way of breaking rules, ALL the time, so her mom and her partner, obviously they're lesbians, made her go to rehab. After that she has to move in with her father in Philadelphia. That's 3 hours away from where swim lives.

So now swim is wondering, do you try and make the relationship work long distance? Do you just hope that we can sometime work it out in the near future? Many questions on that front...

Also, swim has about 20 days worth of suboxone. Should swim just say fuck it and get clean, even though he wants to use more than ever. Or do you just keep living the same way you were and take a suboxone whenever you can't get shit. AHH I need to go to work tonight, and I don't want to. I just want to get wasted. I hate my life. Oh well. Any words would be appreciated, and not the typical answer of "Oh it will work out and be peaches and cream" sugarcoated bullshit. I wanna know what you guys would do. And for real answers from the heart. I'm a straightforward person and nothing is going to upset me. So here we go. also...anyone that wants to get to be friends and is from PA, hit me up on

myspace.com/teddybearpicnicsmusic. thanks. peace. love. kaos.

[dyingtomorrow]

I don't really have anything good to say about anything, and I appreciate your comment because I know how annoying it is to get positive advice in this state. I will say however that with 20 suboxones, you have the possibility of getting clean almost completely painlessly. A number of people, myself included, have posted suboxone mg tapering schedules which can get you clean in 2-3 weeks with very little physical discomfort. It's up to you if you want to do it. Hope things go well for you.

[superdupernaut]

Hey man swim knows how the long distance thing goes, and how addiction can, to say the least, complicate a relationship.

Swims wife is currently serving prison time for drug related offenses, but honestly, swim is glad that her destructive cycle of abuse has been interupted.

I've never been to good at providing consoling/comforting words, but swim knows what kind of a spot your in and I hope things work out for the best.

[teddybearpicnics]

dyingtomorrow - thanks for being real. much appreciated. swim took 6mg of suboxone today, and felt really good. felt really down and out but the suboxone really helped, at least the drug addict side of me. then swim was just depressed about the other shit in swims situation. but swim thinks he's going to get sober for awhile. crosses fingers. and thanks for the taper chart but this isn't swims first rodeo with subs and getting clean and then back on the nod. the taper charts work wonders, i made a personal one up for swimself

and...

superdupernaut - you're real too. so props to you on that. swim hopes that you are keeping your head up as well...is swiy sober? what a crazy life we live. i'll keep you guys posted if you'd like, gotta have someone right? swim really doesn't have friends, more like junkies that live by :misery loves company: so thanks, unknown strangers that i am sharing my deepest feelings with. respect!

.teddy

[dyingtomorrow]

Originally Posted by teddybearpicnics

dyingtomorrow - thanks for being real. much appreciated. swim took 6mg of suboxone today, and felt really good. felt really down and out but the suboxone really helped, at least the drug addict side of me. then swim was just depressed about the other shit in swims situation. but swim thinks he's going to get sober for awhile. crosses fingers. and thanks for the taper chart but this isn't swims first rodeo with subs and getting clean and then back on the nod. the taper charts work wonders, i made a personal one up for swimself

Hey - I read what I wrote again, and sorry I didn't mean to sound so cold. I'm just in a really bad state now, and I fucking hate when people are like - "yeah you can do this this and this to get your life back together" ... yeah fuck that. Figured from your response you are in the same boat. Actually SWIM's getting some dope today so he is in a much better mood.

Anyways, I don't know if you have been on suboxone before, but starting at 6 mgs is really good. You could be totally, painlessly clean in 2 weeks. Some warnings; suboxone seems to make a lot of people depressed, and the cravings are bad. It's really interesting how inferior and superior it is to methadone in different aspects. With methadone, a full agonist, it at least seems to tell your brain that you are getting your beloved opiates. With fucked up ass shitboxone, partial agonist, it's like it takes the sick off, but your brain is still saying WHERE THE FUCK IS MY HEROIN??????!!!! HOW ARE MY RECEPTORS FULL BUT I STILL DONT HAVE THE HEROIN I NEED????? The cravings are horrible on suboxone, and the depression may stem from the that link that only heroin addicts have with their body, where your body can listen in and hear what your mind is thinking somehow, and knows that it's not getting heroin so it is just sad as fuck.

Also, that orange shit is disgusting. Fuck keeping it in your mouth. SWIM snorts it, and it actually is more effective than the sublingual bullshit, and only takes a couple minutes of gross drip as opposed to 15 minutes of wanting to throw up. I hate suboxone, but I have to admit it has it's uses. If you really do want to get clean, I have no doubt you can succeed and you are already at a very good starting point. Find something to do to keep your mind off the cravings!

[teddybearpicnics]

hey dying...i didn't think you sounded cold at all, it just sounded real. i hate my life and nothing really sounds colder than my conscious. but on a real note, swim wishes he could get some dope today too, he thinks his buddy might bring some into his work when he starts. that would be nice. considering swim just got paid today.

with the suboxone thing, it doesn't really make me crave. once i take it i just try and get over it for the day. but swim knows what you mean and wants to know where the fuck his opiates are too after ingesting. but then it's just a sad reality that my receptors are affinitied out for the next day. swim also likes to sniff it. he ususally sniffs 2 mgs at 2 different times, and then he puts 2 mg's under his tongue. swim doesn't mind the taste. swim gets realllll depressed on it though. probably because the only thing that makes him not depressed is doing dope. i want to get clean but swim also wants to use. it's a constant battle that never ends. lameee

[infekt]

Getting clean is one thing, and I think you should go for it. But it won't work unless swiy feels it is time, and it is worth it. And then again, it never seems like its time. My advice? Even if swiy thinks he doing alright, at least quit whilest he's ahead.

But judging from swiy's post swiy is feeling the burn. Swim can relate, he has been in an addict-relationship for the last 2 years, both of them opiate addicts. One is actually still using...not swim however. But it does have a way of getting close to sabotaging swim's recovery, and he is planning on ending the relationship soon. It's too much of a battle. Sometimes we have to think about ourselves. Unfortunately, addicts have a tendency to be very codependent. Well, from swim's personal experience anyhow.


take the suboxone. get off the dope. get this bullshit out of swiy's life.

[Junkhead23]

Originally Posted by teddybearpicnics

hey dying...i didn't think you sounded cold at all, it just sounded real. i hate my life and nothing really sounds colder than my conscious. but on a real note, swim wishes he could get some dope today too, he thinks his buddy might bring some into his work when he starts. that would be nice. considering swim just got paid today.

with the suboxone thing, it doesn't really make me crave. once i take it i just try and get over it for the day. but swim knows what you mean and wants to know where the fuck his opiates are too after ingesting. but then it's just a sad reality that my receptors are affinitied out for the next day. swim also likes to sniff it. he ususally sniffs 2 mgs at 2 different times, and then he puts 2 mg's under his tongue. swim doesn't mind the taste. swim gets realllll depressed on it though. probably because the only thing that makes him not depressed is doing dope. i want to get clean but swim also wants to use. it's a constant battle that never ends. lameee

SWIM feels for you as SWIM also uses to aid depression. Mark my words because SWIY are using heroin to help SWIY depression it will seem almost like heroin or suicide. However this does not have to be the case but SWIM will say it will be a lot harder for SWIY to quit than someone who does it for fun as the dpression will hit like a ton of bricks.

This is the reason SWIM is finding it so hard to qui because he may end up killing himself if he stops.

[dyingtomorrow]

Originally Posted by Junkhead23

SWIM feels for you as SWIM also uses to aid depression. Mark my words because SWIY are using heroin to help SWIY depression it will seem almost like heroin or suicide. However this does not have to be the case but SWIM will say it will be a lot harder for SWIY to quit than someone who does it for fun as the dpression will hit like a ton of bricks.

This is the reason SWIM is finding it so hard to qui because he may end up killing himself if he stops.

That's exactly where SWIM is at. Suboxone is horrible. SWIM has zero money or any way of getting it anymore, even tho his girl is taking care of him. SWIM already tried to kill himself by ODing with the last of his heroin money, but was too stupid to get some benzos, and ODing as an experienced junkie is almost physically impossible. SWIM just thinks about killing himself all day long every day, the only mitigating factor is that his brother gets him a couple bags once a week. SWIM is saving up for another OD shot, and is happy to know that the extra depressing ass season that is Christmas will give him both the money and the will power to do so.

If you can afford it, it really does help with depression (and seems to be the only cure for some people), and makes certain kinds of naturally languid and miserable people actually have ambition and an energetic love of life - SWIM hopes with all his heart SWIY can hang on to it.

[Junkhead23]

SWIM feels for you DT as SWIM is exactly the same. Christmas is the bane of my life and makes SWIM even more depressed. It sucks. About this time SWIM starts dreading it coming then when it is here SWIM just wants it to go away!!!

People say suicide is the cowards way out. All SWIM can say is that to commit suicide you need balls of steel. The willpower needed to do such an act is enormous. To get over your natural desire to live really is something.

I don't understand why people insist on SWIM being here if he is miserable!?

[libertalism]

Before you commit suicide or even think about it , think about this for a second:

Life starts with birth , thats a fact , and life ends with death , thats also a fact.
Whatever you do in life you will end with death YOU WILL TRUST ME.
Now one thing that is probably in death is sweet nothingness but You won't be here EVER AGAIN.
You won't ever feel the sun on your face , you won't ever feel the snow in your hands , you will never taste a cookie again , you will never love again, you will never fuck again , you will never be high again. Death is the end and it will come eventually.
Why go rush on to things? I fermely believe that there are enough different ways to lead a life and to experience in a life to make 2 or perhaps 3 lifetimes or even more!
Its sad to say but you need bad things to happen to be able to enjoy good things.
If your life was allways happyness and sunshine you probably wouldn't even recognise it as such.

Thats the shit about H and substances like it , those ups and downs come fast and go fast.

Now for a final thing : IF you are miserable , why don't you leave , go out in the world start hitchhiking , see some breathtaking places and perhaps then you will rediscover your passion for life.
And another last thing : If you really are miserable and there is no way out then nobody has the right and i mean NOBODY has the right to hold you back. But allways remember , death is the final end and its permanent.

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excellent perspective!!

[teddybearpicnics]

Originally Posted by Junkhead23

SWIM feels for you as SWIM also uses to aid depression. Mark my words because SWIY are using heroin to help SWIY depression it will seem almost like heroin or suicide. However this does not have to be the case but SWIM will say it will be a lot harder for SWIY to quit than someone who does it for fun as the dpression will hit like a ton of bricks.

This is the reason SWIM is finding it so hard to qui because he may end up killing himself if he stops.

swim is not glad but at least comforted by the fact that someone else knows what it feels like, swim has an alright life other than the situation with his girl, but the depression is so deep...swim is so apathetic about everything. swim hopes that swiy and himself don't feel like this forever.

Originally Posted by dyingtomorrow

That's exactly where SWIM is at. Suboxone is horrible. SWIM has zero money or any way of getting it anymore, even tho his girl is taking care of him. SWIM already tried to kill himself by ODing with the last of his heroin money, but was too stupid to get some benzos, and ODing as an experienced junkie is almost physically impossible. SWIM just thinks about killing himself all day long every day, the only mitigating factor is that his brother gets him a couple bags once a week. SWIM is saving up for another OD shot, and is happy to know that the extra depressing ass season that is Christmas will give him both the money and the will power to do so.

If you can afford it, it really does help with depression (and seems to be the only cure for some people), and makes certain kinds of naturally languid and miserable people actually have ambition and an energetic love of life - SWIM hopes with all his heart SWIY can hang on to it.

this makes swim sad. you don't have to say it in this post but you could send swim a pm and let him know why you are so down and out. swim knows that suicide is on your mind, and it's always on swims mind as well, but there are a couple things keeping swim alive. first, is music, i don't like the thought that swim would never hear a song again. second is swims family. they just love and care so much that i know i would ruin their lives. and lastly is the fact that things could actually possibly maybe get better in swims life. he is too young to know yet, and the actual act of suicide probably wont happen for at least 8-10 years because there is just more girls to fuck, more places to see, and more drugs to do. Sorry dying...i got off topic. swim hates christmas too, it's his least favorite time of the year, and definitly adds to his depression to see everyone so happy and out spending their money on loved ones, and swim is so selfesh that he can't even afford gifts for anyone because he spends all his money on junk. swim wonders if swiy has a job or lives on his own? how come swim still does dope if he can only do it once a week? isn't it worse always wanting it and always counting down until that week gets there then to just give it up and try and make a better life? see you already have will power because if swim doesn't have money and is wanting something, swim will find a way to get it. also swim hopes with all his heart that swiy can turn it around. do swim a favor though, and if swiy does it, make sure that it's the right choice.

Originally Posted by libertalism

Before you commit suicide or even think about it , think about this for a second:

Life starts with birth , thats a fact , and life ends with death , thats also a fact.
Whatever you do in life you will end with death YOU WILL TRUST ME.
Now one thing that is probably in death is sweet nothingness but You won't be here EVER AGAIN.
You won't ever feel the sun on your face , you won't ever feel the snow in your hands , you will never taste a cookie again , you will never love again, you will never fuck again , you will never be high again. Death is the end and it will come eventually.
Why go rush on to things? I fermely believe that there are enough different ways to lead a life and to experience in a life to make 2 or perhaps 3 lifetimes or even more!
Its sad to say but you need bad things to happen to be able to enjoy good things.
If your life was allways happyness and sunshine you probably wouldn't even recognise it as such.

Thats the shit about H and substances like it , those ups and downs come fast and go fast.

Now for a final thing : IF you are miserable , why don't you leave , go out in the world start hitchhiking , see some breathtaking places and perhaps then you will rediscover your passion for life.
And another last thing : If you really are miserable and there is no way out then nobody has the right and i mean NOBODY has the right to hold you back. But allways remember , death is the final end and its permanent.

good words, but swim thinks you are giving a kind of bubblegum answer, taste a cookie? i mean come on you think that anyone commiting suicide just jumps into it and is like today i feel like killing myself? don't take it the wrong way swim is just saying that dying probably has thought a lot about it, and to tell him that he wouldn't ever taste a cookie is probably the last thing on his mind. but once again, well put.

[InstantKarma]

It is completely possible to make a long distance relationship work. Swim moved to Arizona for eight months at one point and saw her boyfriend four times in those eight months. It was so hard and so painful sometimes, but love finds a way.

InstantKarma added 4 Minutes and 25 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by dyingtomorrow

That's exactly where SWIM is at. Suboxone is horrible. SWIM has zero money or any way of getting it anymore, even tho his girl is taking care of him. SWIM already tried to kill himself by ODing with the last of his heroin money, but was too stupid to get some benzos, and ODing as an experienced junkie is almost physically impossible. SWIM just thinks about killing himself all day long every day, the only mitigating factor is that his brother gets him a couple bags once a week. SWIM is saving up for another OD shot, and is happy to know that the extra depressing ass season that is Christmas will give him both the money and the will power to do so.

Swim's bf tried to OD permanently several times...he was in nearly the same situation as you...depressed, addicted, broke, and swim was supporting his habit. If you can't make it work for yourself, do it for your girl, she obviously loves you to be caring for you like that and doesn't want to see you in pain. Swim cannot describe how awful it felt to see her bf suffer and try to end his life. You have something to live for if you have found someone who loves you that much.

[Gappa]

Like I said in the other thread look at what Curt Cobain did I read his suicide note today..senseless...even to the point people were saying he was murdered... To actually commit suicide and get away with it there is no OD shot.. A gun and only a gun... the right tool for the job my friends.
Now that said I have contemplated it from time to time what the other side is like.. the peace... I could never do that to my children and my wife and parents. This deff is the cowards way out and is the ultimate act of a supremely selfish person. I had several friends one fairly recently shot himself in the head???? Noone knew why either was the wierd thing.. His GF just found him dead in his bead with a self inflicted gunshot to the head. The other was when we were all much younger he was kinda stupid and decided he couldn't live when his GF broke it off with him he was only 18. Hung himself in the rafters in the basement. It really fucked up his roommate and good friend of mine.
I have to firmly agree with libertalisim. Why are you going to rush something that is going to come naturally sooner or later. I haven't always felt this way and I want desperately to get that back again and am fighting my ass off to get there already getting off methadone which mind you is probably the single most difficult event in SWIMs life to date.
I do honestly think where one is located makes a huge difference in ones overall outlook on life in general. I have lived in some very nice areas and some shitholes. I noticed one thing that really stuck in my brain about you Teddyruxpin "sorry Im not so good with names i just remember the teddy bear" You said you were going to live in "beat city" I know living in one's hometown can be very counterproductive to ones cause.. all the old friends just kinda creep back into ones life and before you know it you're at the point of no return once again.
I always want to look on the bright side of things no bubblegum and fluffy fuzzy things for this thread though as firmly requested by Teddy. I do take Wellbutrin/bupropion, have now for about 8 years and do not get depressed anymore. I never reccommend a drug to treat an addict's problems but that particular drug just seemed to really work well for SWIM so much so I will never go off it again. Everytime I had gone off it it nearly destroyed me and my life.. SWIM's talking like crazy shit runnin from the cops and doing some really stupid things that could be considered life endangering seeing how fast my bike would go 175mph just insane shit.
Nuff said bout that..
If I were in your shoes now.. and I am treading very lightly as I don't personally know you.. I would avoid moving to "beat city" wherever that may be at all costs. Getting clean or at least stable on subs would be a good idea. The cycle of depression is accentuated by the HI-LO effects of the H. Try to find a "good" doctor that actually has your interests at heart rather than their wallet "can be very difficult" and get on an antidepressant that "agrees" with SWIY's neural chemistry.
Or take that lonely dark road and may God be with you.
Haven't all of us seen our lives go into the shitter EVERY single time we start using. As soon as we stop using our lives improve. I know it HAS to be the same with ALL my good friends out there. No using "Good life" using "shit life" it dosen't get any simpler than that. SWIM dosen't see ANY way using can improve SWIYs life. Maybe if you get into one of those eye opening psychedelic trips that ripps your nuts off but even then I wouldn't consider that a pleasant experience.

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More lines breaks please.

[youdontknow]

IF swiy is just worried about the relationship and not about getting clean, then i would say try to make it work. If both people are truly commited to the relationship then it shouldnt matter. However, they say that if swiy is trying to get clean its gonna be pretty near impossible to do so when in a relationship where both people use.

See now swim is in a relationship for over a year now with an awesome girl who isnt an addict and doesnt know about swims addiction. Thats so much worse in my opinion.

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really great advice here

[dyingtomorrow]

Originally Posted by DeadLegend

IF swiy is just worried about the relationship and not about getting clean, then i would say try to make it work. If both people are truly commited to the relationship then it shouldnt matter. However, they say that if swiy is trying to get clean its gonna be pretty near impossible to do so when in a relationship where both people use.

See now swim is in a relationship for over a year now with an awesome girl who isnt an addict and doesnt know about swims addiction. Thats so much worse in my opinion.

I always used to think about that. I mean, how fucking awesome it would be to have a girlfriend that uses, but also how impossible it would ever be to quit. Just among his H friends, SWIM notices that basically one junkie can bring any other junkie "down" at any time. Like, all the times SWIM has tried to get clean with other people, it's assured that one or the other is going to say in a little voice "hey man ... want to go get some shit" ... and then the other is going to say "FUCK YES."

SWIM kind of assumed that things could get even worse with an addict gf though. Like, the one heroin couple he knows, they both end up in even worse fucking adventures than SWIM does. They both get arrested all the time, they both prostitute themselves for money, etc. Still, I think it would be awesome to share the upsides of heroin addiction with someone you loved.

[Gappa]

What dare I ask deadtomorrow is an upside of H use?? Yes I do firmly agree after abstaining for several weeks and than doing an opiate can be a very enjoyable experience. But it's like that first hit of rock, after that first blast it's all downhill after that. After that it's pure hell.
I deff don't want to hijack and get into some pissing match over what is or isn't. But I am curious what people think is good about using??

Gappa added 26 Minutes and 49 Seconds later...

SWIMs junkie couple friends are a mess, 6 kids between them and all they do is run around and try to get high off other people. SWIM hates to talk bad about anyone but SWIM won't sugar coat anything SWIM sees. SWIM is glad my wife now is dead set against any and all drugs SWIM could not imagine how horrid his life would be if he were with a using partner. SWIMs personality as he perceives it is a catylist to other users SWIM is the one deadtomorrow is speaking about. "wanna get some shit" and MORE MORE MORE... Very dangerous for other users to be around SWIM

Gappa added 48 Minutes and 8 Seconds later...

Teddyruxpin, as far as the gurl goes.. If the love is real and truly mutual then that will conquer all things. Now living in this storybook life here on the web does not apply to most. We all live in the real world and being apart can and will result in certain temptations ahhhheeeemm "as he clears his throat".

[dyingtomorrow]

Originally Posted by Gappa

What dare I ask deadtomorrow is an upside of H use?? Yes I do firmly agree after abstaining for several weeks and than doing an opiate can be a very enjoyable experience. But it's like that first hit of rock, after that first blast it's all downhill after that. After that it's pure hell.
I deff don't want to hijack and get into some pissing match over what is or isn't. But I am curious what people think is good about using??

Gappa added 26 Minutes and 49 Seconds later...

The upside to H use for SWIM is it makes him not crushingly depressed, constantly thinking about suicide, and unable to sleep like he has been since like age 12-13. Unlike pretty much every anti-depressant out there and all kinds of other fucked up drugs he's tried from various doctors for the past 10 years.

[Gappa]

Originally Posted by dyingtomorrow

The upside to H use for SWIM is it makes him not crushingly depressed, constantly thinking about suicide, and unable to sleep like he has been since like age 12-13. Unlike pretty much every anti-depressant out there and all kinds of other fucked up drugs he's tried from various doctors for the past 10 years.

Honestly..?? This is saying in a matter of words.. You pay soo dearly just to feel normal?? The black hole within is your soul good friend, there is a good man there hidden behind years of dread and drear...
I feel it too.. eating and chipping away piece by piece. You can not let it close in, push it away fight it..
Life is a test not a game. Love and good build and heal, evil and hate kill and destroy.
Livingtoday there is a reason you are here.

[dyingtomorrow]

Originally Posted by Gappa

Honestly..?? This is saying in a matter of words.. You pay soo dearly just to feel normal?? The black hole within is your soul good friend, there is a good man there hidden behind years of dread and drear...
I feel it too.. eating and chipping away piece by piece. You can not let it close in, push it away fight it..
Life is a test not a game. Love and good build and heal, evil and hate kill and destroy.
Livingtoday there is a reason you are here.

It was definitely worth it to feel normal and good for 2 years. Those were the only 2 years of SWIM's life he was really "alive." SWIM became happier and more productive than he had ever been, and learned more in those 2 years than probably in the sum of the rest of his life. SWIM was almost able to graduate law school with excellent grades and a crazy-good job offer before he ran out of money and crashed 1 semester away from a J.D.

SWIM doesn't believe in good or evil or a purpose. Life is just life, it is what it is, the result of ever increasing complex systems resulting from the "premise" of the laws of this universe. Maybe there is a God, but he certainly doesn't interfere in his own laws or help people, and in anything but the most simple concept of "purpose," the point is really moot. In the course of human history, unbelievably awful things have happened possibly to "most" of the people that ever lived. Cicero's murder, the burning of so many books of antiquity at Alexandria and Constantinople, hundreds of millions of wives, daughters and sons raped and killed before their families eyes. Those 2 years were a real blessing relative to the norm of human life throughout history, and I cannot possibly be anything but grateful in the grand scheme of things for what I received.

[Gappa]

Things in this universe are "too perfect" to be considered chance. The odds of our very existence are too great. Outta the ooze!!Go Darwin! YEA RIGHT! Something or someone with an infinite knowledge has created us. Us humans thinks we are sooo clever but still don't understand our own "consciousness" Hell we don't even know what gravity actually "is" yet!
Gappa is a scientific man but also is a gambiling man, and his chips r down..
Those horrible things happening to all those people in history were simply getting their "reward" for all thier wonderful actions. You reap what you sow.. quite simple really..
Swiy's gotta at least believe in "karma"

[dyingtomorrow]

Originally Posted by Gappa

Those horrible things happening to all those people in history were simply getting their "reward" for all thier wonderful actions. You reap what you sow.. quite simple really..

SWIM is pretty shocked by this statement. The history of the world up until about 1600 was armies CONSTANTLY marching all over farmlands and villages, killing the adult men, raping the women and children, and then selling them into slavery. The billions of victims of war in human history definitely weren't deserving of it.

[teddybearpicnics]

Originally Posted by Gappa

Things in this universe are "too perfect" to be considered chance. The odds of our very existence are too great. Outta the ooze!!Go Darwin! YEA RIGHT! Something or someone with an infinite knowledge has created us. Us humans thinks we are sooo clever but still don't understand our own "consciousness" Hell we don't even know what gravity actually "is" yet!
Gappa is a scientific man but also is a gambiling man, and his chips r down..
Those horrible things happening to all those people in history were simply getting their "reward" for all thier wonderful actions. You reap what you sow.. quite simple really..
Swiy's gotta at least believe in "karma"

Originally Posted by dyingtomorrow

SWIM is pretty shocked by this statement. The history of the world up until about 1600 was armies CONSTANTLY marching all over farmlands and villages, killing the adult men, raping the women and children, and then selling them into slavery. The billions of victims of war in human history definitely weren't deserving of it.

okay...gappa, nothing personal...i understand your beliefs, and i'm not going to argue them, but being forceful of your own ideals is getting a bit out of hand with a statement like all those horrible things that happened to all those people was their reward for all the good that they've done...i'm in dissagreement with you. my beliefs are different than yours and that's not the issue, if you believe in karma, why would someone whose done nothing but good get raped and sold into slavery, just as an added bonus? i guess that means i'm going to get tied to a tree while a wolverine eats my stomach out...and i'm not even good. again, nothing personal, just trying to keep this post from getting way out of hand...although it is quite intresting what a conversation this has shaped up to be.
.teddy

Reputation Comments on this post:

well said

[libertalism]

Originally Posted by Gappa

Things in this universe are "too perfect" to be considered chance.

I'm sorry if this post offends anyone but it is my opinion and i tend to get a little pissed off when talking about beliefs, i've been to a catholic school from 4-14 and i felt like they were trying to brainwash me

Turn on your telee , read a history book , take a walk outside , perhaps in a major city. Visit some people in their homes , talk with different people.

Are things still to perfect?
Or are you refering to the existance of humans? There are an infinite number of planets in the univers , so it could easily be that one of those planets had the right climate and circomstances ( with a few drops of luck ) for life to start. One of those planets happened to be earth.

Gravity :
"Gravitation is a natural phenomenon by which objects with mass attract one another. In everyday life, gravitation is most commonly thought of as the agency which lends weight to objects with mass. Gravitation compels dispersed matter to coalesce, thus it accounts for the very existence of the Earth, the Sun, and most of the macroscopic objects in the universe. It is responsible for keeping the Earth and the other planets in their orbits around the Sun; for keeping the Moon in its orbit around the Earth, for the formation of tides; for convection (by which hot fluids rise); for heating the interiors of forming stars and planets to very high temperatures; and for various other phenomena that we observe. Modern physics describes gravitation using the general theory of relativity, in which gravitation is a consequence of the curvature of spacetime which governs the motion of inertial objects. The simpler Newton's law of universal gravitation provides an excellent approximation for most calculations."

Yea sure God makes us stick on this planet becouse he wouldn't want us to fly to other planets or to heaven.

Reputation Comments on this post:

You really should not bring race into the discussion. Maybe you should consider editing your statement.

[Gappa]

Gravity: Yes we can study it's effects, we see its forces at work and can directly study them. But what is it?? Is it a particle? "graviton" Or a wave. Scalar? This is what all the great Physicists are working on now, this "Theory of Everything". The "God" machine?? ring any bells. The Large Hadron Collider. We "humans" are building a machine that we think are going to teach us "what really happened" AND THESE ARE SUPPOSEDLY THE SMARTEST PEOPLE ON THE PLANET!!!! Hmmmmmm..??
Sorry Teddy Gappa may have expressed his beliefs too strongly in the previous statement. We, As in all of us, don't really know those other people personally so we can't make a fair judgement call. There certainly circumstances that don't seem fair. Life is what you make it.. You are dealt a certain deal at birth. Ok. What about all the people who were born so poor and starved all their lives and later in life become Billionaires?? If it is money that makes you happy. And great kings and leaders comming from slavery. If power is what you seek? Search our history it has happened MANY MANY times to many people. why??
I did not want to get in a pissing match as I did express earlier, but it tears me up everytime I hear someone who sounds like they have lost all hope. That their existence means nothing. Why, you ask? Because Gappa has been there, knows what this feels like and if just 1 person reads anything I write and it helps them then I have done something good. Gappa wants to believe that there is good in this world even though it is inherently evil. Again these are opinions only I am one person with certain veiws that have come from my life experiences only I cannot speak for anyone else. Although I do enjoy hearing what others think too, this is also why I am here. This is what makes us all different and that is a good thing too. There are certain things that I have read and taken from here and have helped me greatly.

Gappa added 98 Minutes and 7 Seconds later...

Good stuff guys! Good stuff! Libertalisim that is what I am talking about, what are those "few drops of luck"? Is that what brought me to this web site to help me say clean, just a web browser?? Or could it be something more?
The human brain is the most complicated device known to current humanity at this moment. A few microbes on a rock floating around maybe. But all this? Really works the noodle, huh?
Again sorry teddy I know I got off on a tangent here, but you did ask for words so I obliged.
How are things going now? If you don't mind me asking?