Advice on moving onto subutex

[FieryJack]

Hi, does anyone know a rough guide to how low your habit has to be in order to slip onto the subbys. Swim has tried a couple of times now with painful results and put it down to a combination of not waiting long enough from last hit and opiate habit being a little too high. Swim has got it down to 2 bags a day now as opposed to 4,5 or 6 and is considoring waiting about 16 to 18 hours before having 4mg sub and working up from there. If anyone has any experience in this matter and some numbers to work with ie size of habit v time since last hit and doseage, it would be of great help.

Swim has done it a few years ago with good results but from a very low habit and was just lucky at the time but unfortunately things went wrong after a year of being clean so its back to square one again.

Thanks guys.

[TheContrivance]

SWIM also had a 6+ bags of good shit a day IV-habit and also used subutex to wien off of Heroin and Methadone. SWIM started with 4mg subutex for the first dose, at which point he was already very sick. The subutex kicked in very fast and SWIM felt great within 30 minutes or so. SWIM gradually tapered down for the next 14 days. SWIM suggests you go down .25mg everyday until you are at zero. This worked for SWIM. SWIM still had some withdrawal symptoms after, but they were things like having trouble sleeping and restless body syndrome...definitely not the every-nerve-in-your-body-is-telling-SWIM-he's-dying feeling.

[FieryJack]

thanks for that, yeah swim has had a couple of goes recently but maybe did it wrong, swim waited about 18 hours till feeling very sick then dropped 4 mg and levelled out a little but then swim took 8mg 4 hours later and things turned to shit. Maybe swim should of gone 24 hours on the 4mg then gradually gone up to 8mg or whatever swims level is. Oh well lesson learned the hard way. Thanks again for the reply, its really helpful to get as much info off ppl about habits and dosages.

[lunatick90]

Originally Posted by FieryJack

Maybe swim should of gone 24 hours on the 4mg then gradually gone up to 8mg or whatever swims level is.

swiy answered swiy's own question.

[FieryJack]

One more thing I need to know. If swim does take the subby too early, will it eventually level out or will it continue fighting for that opium receptor with the gear. As on previous attempt, swim has realised that the ride has started too early and bailed out after so many hours of suffering. what Im really trying to say is, will it level out by, say the next day or is it a case of starting again.

[TheContrivance]

Originally Posted by FieryJack

One more thing I need to know. If swim does take the subby too early, will it eventually level out or will it continue fighting for that opium receptor with the gear. As on previous attempt, swim has realised that the ride has started too early and bailed out after so many hours of suffering. what Im really trying to say is, will it level out by, say the next day or is it a case of starting again.

SWIM isn't quite sure what SWIY is saying/asking here...

SWIM took his subutex about 36 hours after his last dose, so SWIM was pretty sick at that point. SWIM would think that the time between your last dose and whenever SWIY takes the subutex wouldn't really matter? or is SWIM wrong? Subutex does have opiates in it, which is why SWIY would feel better when taking it. IF the time does matter SWIM would think that SWIY should wait a little bit and have to stick through being sick for a short time...this is how it went for SWIM at least and this is how the treatment worked for SWIM.

[chillinwill]

You should wait until one is in the beginning stages of withdrawal to take the subutex as the bupe in the subutex has a higher affinity for the opiate receptors and will kick off any heroin or other opiates off the receptor sites which can start precipitated withdrawal

[FieryJack]

thanks for replies, swim just thinks that his habit is maybe still a little high which is why swim is looking for reassurance from others in same boat. Sorry if swim is rambling on a bit but swim is crapping it with the thought of getting it wrong again. The last time swim successfully did it with subbys was half by chance with swims habit being a lot smaller at the time but swim only lasted 12 months before dabbling again. Anyway swims last bit of money has gone now so tomorrow will be the subby time, its just a case of leaving it as long as possible and sticking with it. watch this space and hopefully swim will be smiling again by Sunday.

[teddybearpicnics]

Okay swim doesn't know if he's a machine or not, but has been using subbies for quite some time. Swim knows that there is precipitated withdrawl possible, but has never actually experienced it. Swim uses anywhere from 2-8 bags per day, almost everyday, unless something happens. When swim takes the suboxone it will only be sometimes 12-20 hours after the last hit. Swim is an I.V. user and gets good gear, but not once has the fight for receptors sent him into withdrawls. If swim feels sick, suboxone makes him feel better. way better. Swim has never taken it when he's not sick because what's the point. Also, I would recommend looking at the bupe dosage chart on opiophile.org ::there might be one on here, haven't looked :: and get an idea for dosing. Swim finds that 12 mg's is the perfect dose for me on day one of sickness. Day two swim takes 4 mg's because the half life is so high that swim is still rocking about 7.5 mg's from the day before. The next day swim takes 6 mg's. and then will take 4 every day after that. Everyone is different but swim thinks that swiy should not experience withdrawls from taking the subs as long as swiy waits until he actually feels sick. Now that doesn't mean :h man i want to get high it wore off:: hope I helped. Good luck my friend.
.teddy

[chillinwill]

Originally Posted by teddybearpicnics

Okay swim doesn't know if he's a machine or not, but has been using subbies for quite some time. Swim knows that there is precipitated withdrawl possible, but has never actually experienced it. Swim uses anywhere from 2-8 bags per day, almost everyday, unless something happens. When swim takes the suboxone it will only be sometimes 12-20 hours after the last hit. Swim is an I.V. user and gets good gear, but not once has the fight for receptors sent him into withdrawls. If swim feels sick, suboxone makes him feel better. way better. Swim has never taken it when he's not sick because what's the point. Also, I would recommend looking at the bupe dosage chart on opiophile.org ::there might be one on here, haven't looked :: and get an idea for dosing. Swim finds that 12 mg's is the perfect dose for me on day one of sickness. Day two swim takes 4 mg's because the half life is so high that swim is still rocking about 7.5 mg's from the day before. The next day swim takes 6 mg's. and then will take 4 every day after that. Everyone is different but swim thinks that swiy should not experience withdrawls from taking the subs as long as swiy waits until he actually feels sick. Now that doesn't mean :h man i want to get high it wore off:: hope I helped. Good luck my friend.
.teddy

What can happen though about the precipitated withdrawal is that since buprenorphine has a higher affinity for opiate recepters than say heroin, if one is high on heroin and takes suboxone, the buprenorphine will kick off the heroin that is already on the opiate receptors and replace them with it. During this process, one is going to feel withdrawal since until the buprenorphine is offically attached to the receptors, nothing will be occupying them and at the very least, the high of heroin will diminish.

[teddybearpicnics]

Originally Posted by chillinwill

What can happen though about the precipitated withdrawal is that since buprenorphine has a higher affinity for opiate recepters than say heroin, if one is high on heroin and takes suboxone, the buprenorphine will kick off the heroin that is already on the opiate receptors and replace them with it. During this process, one is going to feel withdrawal since until the buprenorphine is offically attached to the receptors, nothing will be occupying them and at the very least, the high of heroin will diminish.

swim understands this, and that's why swim commented that he never took a suboxone when he was still feeling the h even a little bit...it makes perfect sense and i totally believe in it...but swim just never experienced it because he hates wds and does everything possible to get away from them, usually, actually almost always, swim takes a sub first thing or an hour or so after waking, depending on the last shot of dope the night before. so the precip wds are long gone and swim is in actual withdraw. but thanks for the affinity post to people who don't know.
.teddy

[superdupernaut]

Originally Posted by chillinwill

What can happen though about the precipitated withdrawal is that since buprenorphine has a higher affinity for opiate recepters than say heroin, if one is high on heroin and takes suboxone, the buprenorphine will kick off the heroin that is already on the opiate receptors and replace them with it. During this process, one is going to feel withdrawal since until the buprenorphine is offically attached to the receptors, nothing will be occupying them and at the very least, the high of heroin will diminish.

I am a bit of a novice when it comes to biochemistry, but from what I understand of kinetics, in this type of competition the receptors never get evacuated. The addition of bupe occupies more receptors. The kick one may feel moving from heroin to buprenorphine results from a partial agonist (bupe), replacing a full agonist (h). This effect is more pronounced when the receptors are saturated with the good stuff, and the user has a habit.

[benjyman]

@fieryjack Swim has heard that a 4mg drop at 12 to 8 will not be too unconfortable its just when getting to the last few mgs ie 2mg to nothing swim will feel a difference...swim also knows swim who uses alternative days going from 1-3 bagels per day to 8-12mg on off days (2mg on waking 4mg later 4 mg late evening) (it seems different strokes for differnet folks with this medicine)

@superdupernaut in plain english I think the bupe has great attraction/binding to the receptors thus will pull the herion of the receptors and replace it causing wd quicker than usual, which is brought on by enzymes removing the herion from receptors, the wd are felt because the bupe does not stimulate the receptors to the magnatude of the herion.
I would like to know in what way bupe does stimulate the receptors to stop a full withdrawall, thus imagine a chem with the binding powers and attractions of bupe with the stimulation of h

[FieryJack]

Ok swim has managed it and has now levelled out and currently up to 8ml subutex. Swim cheated a bit and wiated as long as he could then dropped a load of vallium to sleep through some of the withdrawal then woke and dropped 2ml subby then 4ml more about 8 hours later and finally 8ml a few hours ago and seems to be more or less the right level. this is from a 4 to 6 bag habit which did make things a little uncomfortable at first. Thanks to all who took the time to answer my questions on here, it really helped my confidence and will power.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Glad to hear you made it thru and that people could help
	+++

[teddybearpicnics]

Originally Posted by FieryJack

Ok swim has managed it and has now levelled out and currently up to 8ml subutex. Swim cheated a bit and wiated as long as he could then dropped a load of vallium to sleep through some of the withdrawal then woke and dropped 2ml subby then 4ml more about 8 hours later and finally 8ml a few hours ago and seems to be more or less the right level. this is from a 4 to 6 bag habit which did make things a little uncomfortable at first. Thanks to all who took the time to answer my questions on here, it really helped my confidence and will power.

FJ...swim is glad that we could help swiy...and i'm sure i speak for all of us, when i say that we wish you the best of luck and a better life ahead. don't go back!
.teddy

[suboxonesubutex]

It really depends on the "half-life" of the drug you're abusing. In other words, how long it takes for that drug to fall off the opiate receptors. The shorter the duration and half-life, the less you have to wait. An easy way to guage this is, you'll start to feel sick. You'll get that classic dysphoric, achey, sweaty, stomach all torn up... Once you've been sick for about 12-24 hours, you can bet that it's safe to take the buprenorphine.

[FieryJack]

swims feeling great now and has even been round his old mates watching everyone chasing and it dosent even bother him, lets face it theres no point trying to hide. swims eating like a pig just lately though, and that feels good too, actually having an appetite again. thanks for all your support on here and I hope I can help anyone else whos going through it on here.

[teddybearpicnics]

yeah i ate like a beast today...thanksgiving food is pretty good. once you make up your mind to quit it's not bad watching other people. at least when swim was in one of his never again phases it didn't bother him.
.teddy

[chillinwill]

That's so true...It used to bother Red Rock when he saw other people shooting up and what not and gave him cravings but it doesn't even set any of that off this time since he made up his mind that he wanted to stay clean

[benjyman]

Thats great news that swim made it onto sub's, SWim tried b4 swim's worker wanted swim on 16mg/day to stop swim using again as it would block anythig swim used, well the story goes like this...

1st day.. picked up 8mgs in morning (stopped hitting up 10.00 the night b4)
was told unoffficially that a dose of 4mg would really help swim out in the evening but swim's worker could not perscribe that so swim would have to source it on swims own.. so come that evening when the rattle(cold turkey,roasting,wd,etc..) set in swim chased a baggy or two and it helped..
2nd day 12mg pickup, that afternoon swim fellt shit chassed 3 bags through day it helped
3rd day 16mg pick up, evening came, wd came, swim smoked 2 baggies.. slept well
4th day 16mg pickup went all day without bar a couple of lines
5th day stable on 16mg pickups but could use or not use when ever swim chose to .
so swim could use ontop and effects would be felt for 30mins - 1hour after consumption and then go a day with out using, just the same as methadone script..
Others have tried swims idea but found it made them ill, and have to take one or the other but swim only had a problem a couple of times when swim swallowd the pills instead of dissolving under tongue, on those days swim was ill untill swim chased a baggie.
The script was stopped after 6 weeks as it was felt swim was not ready to give up, and allthough swim could take or leave baggies the effects were too short and swim wanted more from his baggies.
Strangely enough swim heard that some strange people on the interweb are iv'ing baggies with a small dose of subutex in a bid to lower their tollerance, swim can see the theory but thinks it wont work..

Good luck in staying clean swim admires determination

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good log

[FieryJack]

swim also sourced his own meds coz swim has no faith in doctors and thinks they just get paid to keep ppl doped up. you dont need a doctor or a clinic you need to want to do it mainly. swims done 7 days now and comfortable at 12mg but is gonna cut down to 8 tomorrow. could be too big of a drop but when swim was doing 6 bagels a day, swim could still do fine on 1 or 2. dont know as bupe isnt gear so swim will keep the thread going and report any good or bad effects.

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good thread

[FieryJack]

swim dosed down to 8mg with no probs in last 2 days so will do same in a few days. also swim is leaving doses longer ie instead of 24 hours, just going over a couple of hours each time. everything seems fine apart from feeling the cold more than usual and very slight rattle sweat under the arms but nothing to really complain about. of course swim will feel the cold as he has been in a warm fuzzy cacoon for the last 20 years and also its -5 in the UK at the moment, not exactly the best time of year to do shit like this but I suppose theres never a good time for it. please feel free to add any suggestions and experiences with the bupe that could be helpful.

[kaloochi]

Swim tried 2 nights ago to make the change from heroin to subutex and was very very sick. Swims habit is relatively small at present [0.4g or 2 £10 bags] and he's smoking it. He smoked £10 bag about mid-day and when w/ds started kicking in-about 8pm- took 3-4mg of sub. He didn't feel any different atall, it was as if he hadn't taken anything. Come the night time he was in pieces and took another 2mg. Again it was as though he'd taken nothing and the w/ds got gradually worse. By about 9pm he had started being physically sick and it was obvious gy now the sub weren't working.

Swim got a £10 bag which eased the w/ds just a bit because the sub were blocking the full effects. Once that had worn off completely swim got very ill again and had to score first thing. He wouldn't have done this unless the w/ds were as bad as they were but it was about as bad as it gets. It was like just going cold turkey. I don't know what i done wrong but that post about
'
What can happen though about the precipitated withdrawal is that since buprenorphine has a higher affinity for opiate recepters than say heroin, if one is high on heroin and takes suboxone, the buprenorphine will kick off the heroin that is already on the opiate receptors and replace them with it. During this process, one is going to feel withdrawal since until the buprenorphine is offically attached to the receptors, nothing will be occupying them and at the very least, the high of heroin will diminish.'

There was also something about sub taking longer to fullt attach itself which explains the process to swim now.

[FieryJack]

swiy should leave it longer and it will work. swim would suggest staying awake ie missing a nights sleep totally say after his last hit and if possible source some sleepers then try to sleep through some of the ill feeling. swiy needs to go at least 24 hours or longer the better and then try 2 or 4 mg sub, then it will only probablay make swiy feel beeter but not 100%, then try to find the right level of dosage. swim went from 2 then 4 hours later 4 then 8 in the morning then 12 24 hours later. swim knows how hard it is and everyones rattle is different for instance, swims habit was 6 bags a day but swim would only score once a night and it would last till next night. swim thinks a lot of the wd is psychological, also swim went and stayed with a trusted friend(not many left) and got her to comfort and watch over him. swiy has to block himself from the temptation to score. swim is 2 days clean of all opiates now and although still feeling a slight rattle sweat, nothing he cant handle. subbys are a great but its all about the timing. whats the point of feeling sick all night just to mess it up. swim knows and respects how hard it is as he has took a few attempts to get it right. good luck and please feel free to ask for any help, any time. all the best. FieryJack

[kaloochi]

Your offer of help is very much appreciated. I'm in a situation where i desperately want to stop. If im honest i don't even like the effects of gear any more which is completely crazy i know because why do i still take it. W/ds aside i'll use even if i' don't physically need it at the time. Why i do this i don't know, some weird byproduct of addiction psychology perhaps.
All that aside i have 19.2mg subutex in .4mg tabs and ideally they're to get me off heroin. Once off that i find stopping subs a lot easier. I don't find the w/ds as intense. I'm ready to give it another go so your advice on dosages and times, given what i have at my disposal, would be most helpful. I went to the doc yesterday and got some stemetil which is an anti sickness pill given to chemo patients. I have a condition where i make to much stomach acid and that makes me very physically sick during w/ds, that has broken my spirit on a few occassions including the last one. I also have 20mg valium in 2mg tabs. Not a lot i know but even if it gives me one nights sleep its a help. I also have 2 bags of gear that i think i'm kidding myself by saying i'll stretch it out. Not the nature of the beast as we both know.
I do have some famly support but ultimately i'm in my flat on my own which, perhaps through weakness or fear or whatever it is makes clucking it out extremely difficult. I'd convince/kid myself i'll start tommorrow. I need to take that final step.