Opinions - Pro marijuana groups going about it the wrong way.

[cannabis-sam]

Swim believes legalization of all drugs with different degrees of controls.

But swim thinks the cannabis legalizers are going about it the wrong way and may even harm our cause.

Most marijuana legalization groups go around in big ganja leaf t-shirts spliff in hand saying legalize the weed man it's just a plant it does no harm. Swim believes people like this can actually harm our cause and turn people away from the legalization of drug.

So why does swim think this, well for the most part the people who are most influencial are the middle class people who have never taken drugs or looked into the policy of prohibition mainly because they have their drug of choice -alcohol.

Swim thinks we need to apeal to this group of people and swim doesn't think the ganja leaf waving hippie types however much swim loves them will not apeal to the more affluent.

Swim thinks that the people who need to change the drugs policy are some organisation of doctors and drug workers whose aim is to end he policy of prohibition, not to just legalise weed. Swim thinks organisations like transform are going the correct way.

Swim doesn't believe the LCA would gain the support for the same reasons above. It is a hard issue on how to end this policy but he would like to see more drugs workers, doctors, nurses policeman supporting the cause not just stoners.

We need people saying legalise drugs who have never taken drugs in their lives.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good point.

[Nature Boy]

Originally Posted by cannabis-sam

We need people saying legalise drugs who have never taken drugs in their lives.

Converting Puritans? Good luck with that one. I see the point you're trying to make but people who have never taken drugs are highly suspicious of people who do, for the most part. I believe it's completely unrealistic to expect these people to favour drug legalisation without understanding the financial drawbacks of the War on Drugs. That is the key. Legalisation has nothing to do with social attitudes. It's simply realising that illegal drugs create massive profits for criminals on the black market. It should be an open and shut case and I think this is the strongest area to begin the argument.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good point.

[silenius]

Yes and no. There are various target-audiences to address in this discussion and of course not everybody can have impact on every target audience. When a wear sun-glasses and a hoody, bankers won't listen. When I wear a suit, punks won't listen.

Therefore, I think you are missing the most important point: More cooperation, less substance-fascism. Drug policy reformers should be tolerant among themselves and coordinate their actions so that we can reach all of the people we want to make understand.

[cannabis-sam]

I get your point. I don't think swim was trying to say that the cannabis legalizers havn't got there place it just seems that theres too many stoners and not enough of the people who will make the difference, doctors, lawyers etc. especially in the UK swim feels the US has a lot more open debate about drugs canabanis especially medical marijuana and there are a lot of people calling for legalization swim feels the UK is a lot more opressed nowadays.

Where are the riots in the streets and the strikes of the 60s-80s now everyone just seems to bend over and let the government fuck them in the arse.

Wheres the fight in people? (swim also knows swims gone completely off topic, swim has been smoking alot of fine ganja)

[silenius]

Originally Posted by cannabis-sam

Where are the riots in the streets and the strikes of the 60s-80s now everyone just seems to bend over and let the government fuck them in the arse.

Wheres the fight in people? (swim also knows swims gone completely off topic, swim has been smoking alot of fine ganja)

The revolution will not be televised.

[cannabis-sam]

although I'm sure plenty of people will post and discuss it on internet forums.

[ironhorse]

The riots and things of the 60s -80s would do more harm to the drug than good .People who dont do drugs and are voters are brainwashed and scared by political anti drug propaganda that simply isn't true .Governments dont want the drug war to end because of the billions of dollars in revenue it brings in from forfeitures fines ,drug tax and slave labor in prisons that profits governments .Plus all the jobs it creates in the criminal justice fields courts, lawyers ,police ,counselors, probation ,parole ,guards all at the expense and victimization of the people. Also once a person is in the prison system and released it stays on their record makes it hard to get a job and most likely to re offend after they accumulate more things for goverment to seize .Then charges and fines and things can be increased and enhanced for having a prior record and it starts all over again .I agree there should be peaceful demonstrations ,petitions to legislators and things to educate people on the truth about drugs and expose the lies put out by government anti drug agencies .One of the biggest problems is you have organizations fighting to legalize drugs funded by public donations from people who give what they feel they can afford .Fighting against government agencies with basically unlimited funding provided by government taking peoples property and some times all or most of their money for fines and things. Its kind of hard for one organization funded by what people can afford to compete with another funded by everything people have being taken from them as far as educating the public on the truth . I think the answer is in organizing and educating people in groups that have voting power to put pressure on legislators and politicians .Another problem if many places felons loose their right to vote .That s 1/3 of the population in the U.S.A. Write letters to the editor in newspapers and ask questions like (How can it be safe to put some one in a super sonic jet fighter loaded with bombs and missiles taking amphetamines prescribed by the military ,but so dangerous for a citizen on the ground setting in his house to take the same thing ) I cant remember the pharmecutical name for adderall now but its a form of methamphetamine that they prescribe kids for adhd. How can it be OK for kids to take this but not ok for adults to make that decision for them selves Isn't this just government conditioning the next generation of prisoners ?When doctors put these kids on meth for years then stop prescribing it to them. So they go buy meth off the street to feel normal after taking it so long ,then get arrested.

Reputation Comments on this post:

did'nt think of all this before. thanx.

[unema]

I don't know if I agree with that entirely. A lot, and I mean A LOT of middle class/affluent people use drugs as well as marijuana. They just hide it from their friends and family who also hide these things for fear of 1) The LAW 2) and obviously the "stigma" that goes along with using what are considered "DRUGS." Sadly many of them know alcohol is a drug by definition but refuse to admit it because they would then become drug users. Like what Ironhorse said, we need to change the thinking that goes on when people hear the words weed, mj, cannabis, etc., etc.

Pro MJ groups are all different like silenius said, appealing to a certain culture or audience. What it comes down to is freedom, freedom to choose what is good, ok, bad, kinda bad, blah blah, to put in our bodies. The laws infringe upon our freedoms because, well, its convenient for the government. I truly believe MJ promotes thinking outside the box and can teach you many new things. Things some people don't want you thinking or learning about.

Give people the straight up facts and statistics and all that crap, regulate and let them choose for themselves. Like alcohol and cigs, two very deadly substances that are perfectly legal under regulation(shitty reg I might add) that a good amount of people know the facts about and CHOOSE whether they want a bad liver or potential lung cancer :P This won't happen for a very VERY long time if it happens at all so for now we'll have to continue breaking the law for a healing, nurturing plant OR there is the medical way but the system is littered with dishonest people with no medical reason for the use of the herb but hey gotta do what you gotta do.

Hopefully one day the system will change and it will be regulated for medical and recreational use....that will be the day.

All just my opinion(except for the med system with tons and tons of people using for non-med reasons, atleast in my beautiful home state of sunny California)

ps. Oh and I know a fair amount of people who have never taken a drug but still tolerate MJ or even drugs cause they respect the god given right of choice in only "harming" yourself. Like afore mentioned, we have to stop the propaganda and inform EVERYONE of the facts or nothing comes our way. I support each and every pro-MJ group regardless of status, race, and cause(in the end its the same as yours )

Theres my lil rant haha

peace
-unema

[RaverHippie]

yeahhh, there's a lot of blanket stereotypes interfering with wholesome discussion here in this thread and in the greater debate itself. Education with non-biased, fact based arguments is the way to go.

[Burnt]

I believe science is the way to go with this discussion. Science can and is proving the health benefits of cannabis especially for those who are sick with certain illnesses. Some of these can no longer be debated they are facts. Science has also shown that cannabis has some minor negative effects so thats also true and should be included in any discussion on cannabis legalization.

Second is that people have to stop caring what other people do. Liberty means letting people live there life however they want without interference from governments. I am surprised how many people I talk to about drug legalization who think its the role of government to tell people how to live there life and what to and not to put into their bodies. People need to stop thinking they have that right to tell others what to do.

[ironhorse]

In order to have liberty yourself you have to be willing to grant it to others
The drug war is slavery by government as the definition of slavery is - to be controlled by an outside force

[cannabis-sam]

Swim thinks that everyone should be alowed to do as they please as long as it doesn't hurt others.

The point of this post was pretty much to say the cannabis legalizers are preaching to the converted and also that the aim in this shouldn't be to campaign for marijuana legalization rather go for anti prohibition as this is a far more effective way to win the argument.

Anyways swim is a stupid fucker and has just smoked a load of ganja so sorry if swim is not making much sense

[ShawnD]

Pro marijuana groups are going the wrong way because they keep acting like a bunch of potheads.
long hair? check
unshaven? check
unemployed? looks like it
retarded pot leaf t-shirt? check

When someone looks like a crackhead, do you really take them serious? I'm very pro legalization, and I treat those people like garbage. Any time one of them walks into the store I work at, we immediately have someone follow them around. If we can't even trust these kinds of people to buy a CD or DVD, what chance is there that we will listen to their opinions? If you want to be taken serious, stop dressing like a jackass, stop sounding confused all the time (uhhh I want gears of war uhhhh), and stop trying to fit into some 1960s stereotype.

I almost think that a more effective approach would be a conservative stance based on "f*** drug addicts, if we legalize it, it will be cheap enough to overdose and die on it and we won't need to deal with them anymore". I remember saying something like that when I was arguing that drugs should not require a prescription since prescriptions have a crippling cost on health care (costs about $120 to get a doctor to sign a piece of paper). The other person asked "What if people don't take the correct dosage and die?" to which I said "Who cares? If having a few thousand crackheads kill themselves on Adderall is what it takes to save billions of dollars, so be it". That person eventually agreed that my stance was correct

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Not gonna bad rep you for it, but jeez, that's an obnoxious way of putting it!
	talking about 'crackheads' and addicts dying and that being ok/acceptable is tottally inappropriate

[ironhorse]

Not all promarajuana people fit into the stereo type you describe. A friend of mine who is a paralegal has filed a federal injuction against the DEA and the Attorney General Iowa
08cv370_008.pdf (247KB), 08cv370_006_1.pdf (31KB), 08cv370_006_2.pdf (31KB), 08cv370_006_3.pdf (105KB)
If any one would like to donate funds to help with legal fees I know he would be grateful . Its not cheap or easy to take these people to court and have any chance of winning
The work he is and has been doing is for the benefit of all American citizens. To enquire where to send donations .Just say Reggie gave you the address> Carl Olsen" <cannabischurches@gmail.com

ironhorse added 2 Minutes and 36 Seconds later...

Sorry forgot to run spell check

[gmeziscool2354]

yeah, dude, a lot of pro-drug activists go about it the wrong way, but lets not even start with the users. There was a post a while back about a girl whos boyfreind got dosed out at a rave and attacked the security gaurds and police officers. Shit like that fucks it up for responisible users. I'm NOT saying that if everyone used drugs responibly they would be legal, but it seems like shit like that makes it harder for the non-enlightened population to support pro-drug legislature

[drug-bot]

i think this thread is overly biased, many groups like NORML (the largest pro-pot group in the u.s) have lawyers and other professionals on staff, and their lobbying group dress very conservative, e.g suit and tie. science based pro drug groups like MAPS are made up of doctors, pycologists and researchers and they definetly look the part.

the stereotypical 'stoner' persona isnt something seroius legalization campaigns/groups want to represent so they dress like professionals or casual dress the middle class wears; and its not part of some con job they really are professionals and some are just regular middle class guys/ladys who believe marijuana prohibition is wrong and who may themselves indulge in some good reefer. in closing everyone who smokes pot or advocates for legalization dont look like cheech and chong.

[gmeziscool2354]

well, the only people who are qualified to say whether or not marijuana is harmful are professionally trained, so yeah, most people who actually know what they are talking about can only fit the stoner stereotypes but so much.

also, most people who think that marijuana is extremely harful are underqualified to make thier statements. Personally, my pet monkey has never met a doctor or a human biochemist who feels that marijuana is a horrible atrocity and need to be done away with. Certainily most Dr's dont advise it for their pateints, because its ilegal for them to do so. (atleast in the monkies state)

[cannabis-sam]

The worse the drug the more reason to control, I don't actually think cannabis being illegal is such a big deal compared to the problems caused for hard drug addicts by prohibition, I know it's worse in america.

The illegality of cannabis doesn't seem to effect swim or his friends at all (at most it's an eighty pound fine for possession)

Not that it should be illegal but what I'm saying is that regulation and control is far more important for harder drugs than just cannabis.

[gardis]

Originally Posted by ShawnD

Pro marijuana groups are going the wrong way because they keep acting like a bunch of potheads.
long hair? check
unshaven? check
unemployed? looks like it
retarded pot leaf t-shirt? check

When someone looks like a crackhead, do you really take them serious? I'm very pro legalization, and I treat those people like garbage. Any time one of them walks into the store I work at, we immediately have someone follow them around. If we can't even trust these kinds of people to buy a CD or DVD, what chance is there that we will listen to their opinions? If you want to be taken serious, stop dressing like a jackass, stop sounding confused all the time (uhhh I want gears of war uhhhh), and stop trying to fit into some 1960s stereotype.

I almost think that a more effective approach would be a conservative stance based on "f*** drug addicts, if we legalize it, it will be cheap enough to overdose and die on it and we won't need to deal with them anymore". I remember saying something like that when I was arguing that drugs should not require a prescription since prescriptions have a crippling cost on health care (costs about $120 to get a doctor to sign a piece of paper). The other person asked "What if people don't take the correct dosage and die?" to which I said "Who cares? If having a few thousand crackheads kill themselves on Adderall is what it takes to save billions of dollars, so be it". That person eventually agreed that my stance was correct

i disagree completely with your statement that it would be easier to overdose based on the fact that most illegal drug overdoses are accidental. sure it would be easier to get the amount needed to overdose because it would be cheaper but no heroin addict is gonna purposely overdose on heroin unless they have serious issues(Besides regulation means limited amounts per day or maybe even facilities where they supply you just to keep you going like in Holland). regulations means that there gonna know exactly what there getting and hopefully know there limits. a more conservative approach might be easier to argue but it is not necessarily working in the right direction. one of the cleanest crack heads i have ever seen was in the movie American Drug War The Last White Hope he seemed like he had everything together and was able to formulate opinions. He lived in Holland where crack is decriminalized.

[ShawnD]

Originally Posted by gardis

most illegal drug overdoses are accidental
....
a more conservative approach might be easier to argue but it is not necessarily working in the right direction

You're right, but the soccer mom demographic doesn't seem to care about reality. Remember that we're talking about the same society of people who banned cocaine because it gave black people too much confidence. This is also the same society that thinks it's a good idea to put someone in jail for a few years for smoking marijuana. Trying to use science to argue with these people is like banging your head against the wall, so our best bet is to use scare tactics and sensationalism. Sound stupid? It is, but sensationalism is how republicans keep winning elections.

[silenius]

Originally Posted by ShawnD

so our best bet is to use scare tactics and sensationalism. Sound stupid? It is, but sensationalism is how republicans keep winning elections.

And that's how antisemitism spread in Germany almost 80 years ago.

Not every weapon that proved to be effective is a good weapon. And if we want to win this fight, we should be careful when choosing our weapons.

[Alfa]

Originally Posted by silenius

Therefore, I think you are missing the most important point: More cooperation, less substance-fascism.

Originally Posted by silenius

And that's how antisemitism spread in Germany almost 80 years ago.

Not every weapon that proved to be effective is a good weapon. And if we want to win this fight, we should be careful when choosing our weapons.

It is ironic that the above posts describe exactly why Silenius is now banned.

[dyingtomorrow]

Originally Posted by cannabis-sam

Swim believes legalization of all drugs with different degrees of controls.

But swim thinks the cannabis legalizers are going about it the wrong way and may even harm our cause.

Most marijuana legalization groups go around in big ganja leaf t-shirts spliff in hand saying legalize the weed man it's just a plant it does no harm. Swim believes people like this can actually harm our cause and turn people away from the legalization of drug.

So why does swim think this, well for the most part the people who are most influencial are the middle class people who have never taken drugs or looked into the policy of prohibition mainly because they have their drug of choice -alcohol.

Swim thinks we need to apeal to this group of people and swim doesn't think the ganja leaf waving hippie types however much swim loves them will not apeal to the more affluent.

Swim thinks that the people who need to change the drugs policy are some organisation of doctors and drug workers whose aim is to end he policy of prohibition, not to just legalise weed. Swim thinks organisations like transform are going the correct way.

Swim doesn't believe the LCA would gain the support for the same reasons above. It is a hard issue on how to end this policy but he would like to see more drugs workers, doctors, nurses policeman supporting the cause not just stoners.

We need people saying legalise drugs who have never taken drugs in their lives.

I think it is terribly sad that we are reduced to having to play politics and "image," and can't just hang our hat on the facts about drugs, as they are in reality and not in public perception. That said, I think the best way to go about this is to keep all political drug discussion relative to alcohol. Almost everyone drinks, and the only reason they are against drugs is because they are fed mostly misinformation, and easily scared, as is human nature, by something they don't know about. Understanding that alcohol, relative to other recreational drugs, is really one of the most harmful, socially destructive, and anti-social drugs there is, and making them understand how alcohol would cause all kinds of personal problems for people if it were illegal that would give a false impression of an inherent negativity to alcohol, might just make them see the hypocracy.

If you were to compare most drugs in their effect, physical damage, and undesirable mental states they induce, to alcohol, and really make people understand the facts of the matter, surely no reasonable person would be able to argue for the illegalization of probably most of the now-illegal drugs out there.

Then again, it might just be a lost cause. Even if drugs were legalized, all it would take is one fear mongering politician looking to get elected, and one dead idiot, to undo decades of social progress.

[ironhorse]

I think its best to present truthful facts such as The drug war has gone on for 30 years Has it decreased the amount of drugs ,No .Has it decreased the amount of deaths from overdoses ,no . Has it produced corruption in our police ,yes .Has it increased deaths and violence from gangs ,yes .Has it taken rights of freedom and liberty from all the people ,yes .Has it filled our prisons 200 percent over capacity ,yes . Has it caused violent predators to be released from prisons to make room for nonviolent drug offenders ,yes .Most deaths from illegal street drugs are caused from people who are not chemists making it .Unscrupulous people cutting it with anything to increase weight and profits. The strength or dosage is never the same on the street . Its surprising there aren't more deaths considering these factors. If drugs were legal they would be distributed by a pharmacy .They would be safe . The dosage would always be the same .They would have warning labels on the bottle educating people about them before they took them. They would eliminate the high prices of street drugs .They would eliminate the high profits feeding the gangs and stop the violence associated with them. They would eliminate the corruption in our police letting them focus on violent crime .You could monitor how much some one was taking to know how bad their addiction was . People could openly talk to their doctor or get help with their drug problem without worring about being arrested . Our prisons would not be over crowded and could be used for their intended purpose to protect society from violent predators. Legalizing drugs would surely save lives and make our society better off .But it will not change even though it would save lives Because it would reduce revenue and corruption in our governments Billions of dollars in forfeitures and fines and hundreds of thousands of people sentenced to do slave labor to profit prisons and governments. So governments will keep publishing lies and false propaganda no matter how many families and lives are destroyed by doing so .This is my own viewpoint of the drug movement