Styles of Perception

[nuffsaid420]

So SWIM was pondering like SWIMs do when they ponder and started to think to SWIM self, is SWIM doing SWIM a service by not reading material that is out there and forming SWIMs own hypothesis without the knowledge of certain books in SWIMs head?

SWIM has found, through SWIMs own experience(perception), that it does SWIM great service. By not reading or researching about alternate worlds and/or realities SWIM has discovered them alone . The truths become apparent.

But now SWIM , as SWIM always has been, is interested in the research that is being conducted with psychedelics, alternate realities, and of course teachings in shamanism. The best way to research is by reading, experimenting, and networking with others. SWIM has done 2 out of 3. SWIM has not done very much reading. Although all the reading SWIM has been introduced to on the subject by great minds, all lend themselves to what SWIM has constructed in SWIMs head alone.

SWIM tends to believe though that if SWIM continues to read and find out more about other peoples experiences(perceptions) that SWIMs experience(perception) will be adjusted accordingly to all the new information in SWIMs head, thus changing the outcome of SWIMs experiments.


How does SWIM keep a clear and unbiased mind and still attain knowledge that won't change SWIMs own perceptions?

Like if SWIM were to read a book on DMT, LSD, or Ayahuasca and then when on a trip somewhere, would SWIMs mind not be 'percieving' what was dictated by the book? or would SWIM still be able to form SWIMs own 'perceptions' like he never read the book?

There's a fork in the road, to left is like this, to the right is like that, but SWIM can't see far enough down the road to see if they meet back up at some other point? So SWIM will sit and meditate on it for a while, then the answer may come, to tell SWIM which foot to start the journey with.
(or he could read a book and find out what is down both of those roads, and then start his journey)

[fiveleggedrat]

IMO, avoid reading ahead on specific results and trip reports to be less biased. Swim's fear is the same, that he will see/experience specific things since he read other people's trip reports, especially things like the "machine elf" DMT phenomena.

[robin_himself]

If as a scientist you want keep the outcomes of your experiment unbiased and your hypothesis correct, strife not to prove your own point but rather try and disprove it... when you no longer can disprove yourself you can say with alot more objectivity that what you thought is true.

A good research question is always based on the work of others. We will not find the secrets of the universe by being the king of the hill. Also biting of more than one can chew is a problem of alot of beginning researchers. Swim is a researcher (psychologist) himself and this little thing here is the most important question a scientist always asks himself.
How can i be objective?

Reputation Comments on this post:

that's it in a nutshell

[BigWillyStyle]

a man who follows no path nor anticipates guidance discovers more ground

[Euthanatos93420]

Dr. Phil thinks it goes both way. Experiencing the thing unbiased can be beneficial and and he does as fiveleggedrat suggests and tends to read more technical information. However after a fair amount of experience he likes to write down what he has experienced then read others and find a comparison.

The differences in description can lead on to find interesting observation about ones self, the drug in question, and all without really affecting the experience one has. Although Dr. Phil has found it interested to share an experience someone else has described and found that this can be amusing and enlightening as well. Swim has some repetitive trip themes occur but they manifest in markedly different ways every time he trips.

Interesting consideration but Dr. Phil Feels himself so prone to exploring various different perspectives both inside and outside drug experiences that he really isn't concerned about this.

Robin makes excellent points but Dr. Phil would like to make counterpoint to this and assert that all of existence is really relative and particularily when one discusses the Psyche. Objectivity in analysis of ones experience may be had. But keeping ones experience objective...nigh impossible. Dr. Phil feels like he can do things to push his experience but has long ago resigned the Psychedelic to one of Chaos and preffers to let the trip just be and take it for what it is rather than try to make something of it while he is tripping.

[robin_himself]

Originally Posted by euthanatos93420

Robin makes excellent points but Dr. Phil would like to make counterpoint to this and assert that all of existence is really relative and particularily when one discusses the Psyche. Objectivity in analysis of ones experience may be had. But keeping ones experience objective...nigh impossible. Dr. Phil feels like he can do things to push his experience but has long ago resigned the Psychedelic to one of Chaos and preffers to let the trip just be and take it for what it is rather than try to make something of it while he is tripping.

Can't agree more

[psyche]

Good points there. What is important is questioning onesself. Doing it too often can also lead to lack of insights to question. It's a good trait to be able to go on with hypothesis and roll it in your head, even if you're unsure. That's something that SWIM feels atheists miss by putting everything into too little pieces. But every once in a while, serious questioning. If you were to explain your viewpoint to someone else, how would you respond to his questions? SWIM used to be worried about this thing too, how can he be sure of his insights, and found that by questioning them he can find the nearest thing to truth.

Dr. Phil feels like he can do things to push his experience but has long ago resigned the Psychedelic to one of Chaos and preffers to let the trip just be and take it for what it is rather than try to make something of it while he is tripping.

This is the final phase, to which SWIM is pushing too. It's just so damn hard when the habit of looking for insights is established, even if it starts to feel like most important things are established, like the nature of consciousness and the continuum of consciousness despite death. Two of which SWIM became frankly obsessed with, and needed to go on a battle inside his head so that he could stand in front of an atheist and use the atheist's worldview to set forth such questions that would set gaps in his beliefs. Guess it sprung from a need to validate psychedelic experience or to gain something rationally valuable from it. And SWIM means really obsessed, like he lost all interest in other people's matters because such ultimate interests override boring everyday subjects. Too much is too much.

[Euthanatos93420]

Originally Posted by psyche

Good points there. What is important is questioning onesself. Doing it too often can also lead to lack of insights to question. It's a good trait to be able to go on with hypothesis and roll it in your head, even if you're unsure. That's something that SWIM feels atheists miss by putting everything into too little pieces. But every once in a while, serious questioning. If you were to explain your viewpoint to someone else, how would you respond to his questions? SWIM used to be worried about this thing too, how can he be sure of his insights, and found that by questioning them he can find the nearest thing to truth.

You might be interested in the Hermetic Principles. www.kybalion.org has the best description of them I've seen yet. Using these principles to practice balance in your mind. Questioning evolves into the process where you understand that all counterpoints to one's idea exist and are valid. There are poles to every concept and to create we stop the swing of the pendulum by compensation against the opposition.

This is the final phase, to which SWIM is pushing too. It's just so damn hard when the habit of looking for insights is established, even if it starts to feel like most important things are established, like the nature of consciousness and the continuum of consciousness despite death. Two of which SWIM became frankly obsessed with, and needed to go on a battle inside his head so that he could stand in front of an atheist and use the atheist's worldview to set forth such questions that would set gaps in his beliefs. Guess it sprung from a need to validate psychedelic experience or to gain something rationally valuable from it. And SWIM means really obsessed, like he lost all interest in other people's matters because such ultimate interests override boring everyday subjects. Too much is too much.

Swim finds that trying to gain insight while tripping is a waste of the trip. He tries to less think while tripping than just feeling and percieving. Sometimes he thinks and if something drives him to do so he doesn't resist it. TRYING to gain insight generally prevents it from happening. Just letting it be and knowing it will happen ensures that it will. More often than not the greatest insights from a trip occur LONG after the trip is over and usually up to six months post trip. Six months seems to be a mind movement cycle in Swims mind. Most of his relationships have lasted right baout that long (All the bullshit ones anyway). He finishes more or less receiving epiphanies directly from a trip about six months afterward. Hmmm....Swim is going to go listen to the Beatles now.

[Cryptic Concoction]

All experiences will shape the structure through which novel experiences are perceived.

There is no need to fear altering your perception of the world.

You cannot attain knowledge (subjective or objective) without it influencing your understanding of the world.

[psyche]

[OFFTOPIC]
^^ Very interesting, and will check the kyballion later. Agree with the 'let the wisdom ripen before picking it up'. SWIM just made a snap decision, and about four hours ago he drank 18g of mimosa hostilis along with 4.1g syrian rue. Needless to say it blew the dimensions crazy in less than 30 minutes, which is time for waiting the trip to show it's first signs usually. There's nothing I can say to sum the trip up; it's full of truths, symbolism, mechanical elves and things that exist in every moment but we don't perceive them. Reminds that there is a lot going on every moment. Anyway, you are right, tripping should be like sunbathing in the glory of ever-new soul-mass that keeps pouring through you.

Edit: Oh, by the way. On SWIMs trip he had a flash of your signature! Isn't that crazy... It became symbolic of the DMT-trip and reminded him of the DMT's ability to continnually overflow so that it ingtrigues one to listen by always showing something new. No explanations on earthly terms, just a urge to go on and see what happens next, if you try to resist it. Huh... Shows how things are interconnected... Well, SWIM needs to get doing something, he's going override again And it's only four hours in after all.
[/OFFTOPIC]

Edit2: Ok, SWIM now realizes this is very offtopic. Sorry, but this just seemed to relate so magically because of the signature that flashed for SWIM in the trip.

[Euthanatos93420]

The sig came from a DXM trip where he went to the mall to shop for a controller ~.^ There is a trip report swim wrote about it somewhere on DF...

[shwinehund]

SWIM also finds reading about such subjects very interesting, but he finds that some lessons are revealed by tripping, books, birds, people, dreams ect. SWIM gathers evidence on a constant basis, yet he sifts his facts and is careful not to be pulled in any one direction/method.

While tripping SWIM does his best to be aware or mindful of the situation, which involves no thinking.

[Euthanatos93420]

To 'not be pulled' by influences is nigh impossible. Pure objectivity in a completely relative existence is a paradox (!). Yet even so, to be able to maintain a certain level of objectivity is necessary however compensation too extreme can't prevent one's growth.

Swim like to create a hypothetic alterself that is allowed to be pushed pull and thrown around like a rag doll....hypothetically....for the purposes of argument, entertainment and self-edification.

This alterself is nothing more than a rag doll and tends not to serve as a buffer against Swim's ego (And prevent his ego from becoming emotionally invested in incomlplete and developign concepts).

[nuffsaid420]

A little story:

"An archer competing for a clay vessel shoots effortlessly, his skill and concentration unimpeded. If the prize is changed to a brass ornament, his hands begin to shake. If it is changed to gold, he squints as if he were going blind. His abilities do not deteriorate, but his belief in them does, as he allows the supposed value of an external reward cloud his vision."

Keep in mind during SWIMs studies, that there is no real "goal" or "prize" to be had here. keeps SWIM focused.


Anyone watch TopChef?(My brothers g/f does...)
So last night they had a challenge. They were to cook at a really nice restaurant, but then about 10 min into the show they came in and told all the chefs that they were cooking for the people who didnt get on the show. All the chef's started freaking out, and as expected did a horrible job cooking, because of the pressure of KNOWING what was ahead of them.



This was SWIMs original delima. Knowing what was/is ahead can become an achilies heel. It can affect my styles of perception.

nuffsaid420 added 16 Minutes and 57 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by euthanatos93420

Dr. Phil thinks it goes both way. Experiencing the thing unbiased can be beneficial and and he does as fiveleggedrat suggests and tends to read more technical information.

Agreed. But does reading all that technical stuff effect your opinions/biases? How do you know?

However after a fair amount of experience he likes to write down what he has experienced then read others and find a comparison.

Right, but if we look we can find connections with anything and everything since they are all interconnected anyways.
Ex: Let's say Dr.Phil reported seeing little green men, and then sure enough SWIM did too. So between them, they would hold the truth that little green men appeared. So when SWIY set out on his adventure with the thought of little green men, will he see them because they are there.
Or will he not see them because he is now aware of them??
BTW:SWIMs never seen little green men.

The differences in description can lead on to find interesting observation about ones self, the drug in question, and all without really affecting the experience one has. Although Dr. Phil has found it interested to share an experience someone else has described and found that this can be amusing and enlightening as well. Swim has some repetitive trip themes occur but they manifest in markedly different ways every time he trips.

True. SWIMs most difficult part originally was finding a vocabulary to realte the experiences to others with.

Interesting consideration but Dr. Phil Feels himself so prone to exploring various different perspectives both inside and outside drug experiences that he really isn't concerned about this.


Robin makes excellent points but Dr. Phil would like to make counterpoint to this and assert that all of existence is really relative and particularily when one discusses the Psyche. Objectivity in analysis of ones experience may be had. But keeping ones experience objective...nigh impossible. Dr. Phil feels like he can do things to push his experience but has long ago resigned the Psychedelic to one of Chaos and preffers to let the trip just be and take it for what it is rather than try to make something of it while he is tripping.

This might be where you hit the wall my friend. Yes they are very Chaotic, but that is your mind you are seeing. If your mind is calm and focused, so too is the trip. This takes a long time and lots of discipline. If SWIy can't turn off all the thoughts themselves, then who is in control? Not SWIy!

Just as the Taoist does, SWIM does, he goes with nature, doesnt fight anything anymore, very peaceful and beautiful.

nuffsaid420 added 12 Minutes and 17 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by psyche

This is the final phase, to which SWIM is pushing too. It's just so damn hard when the habit of looking for insights is established, even if it starts to feel like most important things are established, like the nature of consciousness and the continuum of consciousness despite death. Two of which SWIM became frankly obsessed with, and needed to go on a battle inside his head so that he could stand in front of an atheist and use the atheist's worldview to set forth such questions that would set gaps in his beliefs. Guess it sprung from a need to validate psychedelic experience or to gain something rationally valuable from it. And SWIM means really obsessed, like he lost all interest in other people's matters because such ultimate interests override boring everyday subjects. Too much is too much.

You are hitting a wall my friend, imposed on your own minds limitations and established perceptions of it all. Do not go to far into the spiritual/mystical realms, for that is not the purpose. Too many people on the quest, end up staying in this place for too long. We are here to live in this world and experience everything it has to offer, don't shut yourself out.

Sounds like the EGO has not let go quite yet. The "I" is the hardest battle to win. Anyone who cannot/has not let go of the "I" and then rebuilt themselves cannot fully understand the implications of perceptions because the "I" or EGO is still controlling the perceptions. Thus SWIM became obsessed with alternate realities too feed the EGO( I say this because you said "too much is too much"- and that is ego talk)


NOTE: sometimes there is nothing wrong with feeding the ego, moderation though, and it is really hard for the EGO to moderate itself. Very delicate balancing act. Actually I'm not 100% sure, but now I feel as if my higherself is keeping my ego grounded/incheck. That is as long as I continue to communicate with my higherself.

nuffsaid420 added 25 Minutes and 36 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by savingJenniB

Just wondering why SWIY considers himself so impressionable?

Becuase it is human nature. Monkey see monkey do, ya know.


I mean look at all the advertising out there. I don't like a lot of the products they advertise on tv, but damnit if they don't make an impression on me and others who then make impression too.

It's all around me! How do you do it? Not be impressionable?

Education and research on a subject, task or skill is supposed to prepare (good survival tactics) and broaden perceptions ~ not constrict or define. There is a difference between unbiased and uneducated. The more aware (educated) someone is of the full spectrum of possibilities ~ the less prejudices they should have regarding their own experience.

Good point. Preparations lead to good executions. But what if there is limited knowledge of said topic, or task or skill. And there is no way to really tell which stories or studies are biased and the reasoning for the bias.
In my years, research is key to writing good papers, but in my experience I am usually just regurgitating information in my own words and drawing someone elses conclusion. It is hard not to, seems like most everything we research in school has already been taken up. It seems very hard not to have prejudices when I feel like all the reading material and sources all tell me the samething. I feel I then become prejudice towards this conclusion, because even though I didn't do the experiment, I can read journals or talk to people that did carry out the experiements. Then when I carry my experiments out, I will conciously or unconciously already know what I am going to be expecting as a result, therefore I might proceed on my experiment with a certain prejudice towards finding the conclusion I already expect to happen, which is exactly my point in all this. How do I keep my perceptions open and read and learn without closing a lot of doors. Difficult to do to say the least.

I suppose the source and quality of the "educational material" would be an important factor. I'm going to use sex and sex education here as a tangible example. If a young person gets sex educational information from medical-factual books, caring honest adults, and formal classes that teach her the facts, she has very good chance of making smart choices when she starts exploring her own sexuality. She will be aware of possible negative side effects (unwanted pregnancy, STD's, etc.) and she will also be more likely to be a willing participant & have a pleasurable experience. If on the other hand she is given a "formal" sex education that preaches abstinence and moralistic shame along with an assortment of misinformation and half-truths from her peer group and sit-com TV ~ add to that the locker room fantasies of boys her own age ~ her first sexual experiences are probably going to be awkward, disappointing, risky and possibly dangerous. She is far more likely to become a victim and suffer physical and psychological damage. Ignorance is not bliss.

There is a big difference between knowing what to expect based on physical scientific facts, and expecting to know based opinions & innuendo.

Sex Ed is a good example of a case in point where knowing more is better than knowing less.

There's more, but I have to go for now. Thanks for the posts and I will try to answer as much as I can.

[Euthanatos93420]

Originally Posted by nuffsaid420

Agreed. But does reading all that technical stuff effect your opinions/biases? How do you know?

Nah, What a drug does technically is meaningless. Furthermore any descriptions of actual experience One knows are utterly meaningless. Ecstasy is the best one to use as an example. Many describe their emotional response. Many describe it as 'like sex'. However....many describe heroin as 'like an orgasm'. So the relational experience is a highly subjective description.

Maintaining a lack of expectation despite influence is done by understanding three things:

1)Fallibility of language to ultimately and accurately describe the experience of altered states of mind in a manner that evokes true empathy.

2)Dope varies. If you're lucky to get clean and pure shit, your own physiology and neurology varies from everyone else's.

3) People are inclined to exaggerate EVERYTHING.

These three principles apply to a helluva lot more than dope as well. They are fundamental princples of relativity that are the nature of this entirely subjective experience.

Right, but if we look we can find connections with anything and everything since they are all interconnected anyways.

Have you caught the Synchronicty bug? LOL

Ex: Let's say Dr.Phil reported seeing little green men, and then sure enough SWIM did too. So between them, they would hold the truth that little green men appeared. So when SWIY set out on his adventure with the thought of little green men, will he see them because they are there.
Or will he not see them because he is now aware of them??
BTW:SWIMs never seen little green men.

All three of these are indeed possibilities. I read a passage from Eliphas Levi earlier today that seems to be highly applicable here:

You receive my letter. This is an obvious fact. You recognize my handwriting and my thoughts and you conclude from this that it is indeed I who is writing who have written to you. This is a reasonable hypothesis, but the necessary hypothesis is that someone wrote the letter. It could be counterfeit, but you have no reason to suppose so. Were you to suppose so, groundlessly, you would be making a very doubtful hypothesis. Were you to claim that the letter, fully written, fell from the sky you would be making an absurd hypothesis. Here is then how according to the Qabbalistic method certitude is formed:
Evidence
Scientific demonstration = Certitude
Necessary hypothesis
Reasonable Hypothesis = Probability
Doubtful Hypothesis = Doubt
Absurd Hypothesis = Error
By keeping this to this method the mind acquires veritable infalibility, for it affirms what it knows, believes what it must necessarily suppose, admits reasonable suppositions, examines doubtful ones, and rejects those which are absurd.

Eliphas Levi, Elements of the Qabalah

His use of the word Hypothesis here is a misnomer. Assumption is a more definative term to replace it with. When one enters the realm of highly active ego fucking with you. Which is the case when dealing with little green/gray men. See this reference:
http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sho...7&postcount=78
It's a good read regardless of what you think about aliens because it's not about aliens. It's about the Ego. And the author has a great sense of humor about the deal.

Furthermore Psychedelics cause ones five senses of perception to overlap with thought and other possible methods for perception. This causes subjectivity of perception to be assessed by the Qabalistic method of logical Thought/perception veracity affirmation in ways one would not normally be forced to reckon with it.

True. SWIMs most difficult part originally was finding a vocabulary to realte the experiences to others with.

Heh...the psychic conundrum.

This might be where you hit the wall my friend. Yes they are very Chaotic, but that is your mind you are seeing. If your mind is calm and focused, so too is the trip. This takes a long time and lots of discipline. If SWIy can't turn off all the thoughts themselves, then who is in control? Not SWIy!

Just as the Taoist does, SWIM does, he goes with nature, doesnt fight anything anymore, very peaceful and beautiful.

This seems contradictory to me. Although, indeed the Tao te Ching is a book of many paradoxes. If one relaxes and lets the experience occur naturally one is not in control of the trip (One's subconscious is). Yet even so I see what you say. One necessarily must interact with the trip and exert even a slight amount of will over it at times. Sort of like dancing. 'Going with nature' isn't complete docility anyway. By not doing, one does. Gotta love that book putting to words all the best and most basic paradoxes of our existence.

In Dr. Phil's psychedelic experience the Swirling vortex of chaos is only seen at teh penumbra. That place of fractured vision and strange perceptions that exists before the threshold of Ego Death that, when crossed, lands one into the Umbra where he finds peace.

Becuase it is human nature. Monkey see monkey do, ya know.


I mean look at all the advertising out there. I don't like a lot of the products they advertise on tv, but damnit if they don't make an impression on me and others who then make impression too.

It's all around me! How do you do it? Not be impressionable?

DXM =D Seriously. Dissociation allows one to objectively percieve oneself and subsequently reprogram the mind. Some bhuddist meditation literature Dr. Phil read describe using meditation to achieve a state of 3rd person perspective about the self to better percieve oneself by removing notions of judgement.

Good point. Preparations lead to good executions. But what if there is limited knowledge of said topic, or task or skill. And there is no way to really tell which stories or studies are biased and the reasoning for the bias.

Intuition, reason, rationale. All formulations of the ego. However these become effective skills after a good amount of introspection and personal alchemy. Even so one must still apply the above 'Qabalistic' formula.

In my years, research is key to writing good papers, but in my experience I am usually just regurgitating information in my own words and drawing someone elses conclusion. It is hard not to, seems like most everything we research in school has already been taken up. It seems very hard not to have prejudices when I feel like all the reading material and sources all tell me the samething. I feel I then become prejudice towards this conclusion, because even though I didn't do the experiment, I can read journals or talk to people that did carry out the experiements. Then when I carry my experiments out, I will conciously or unconciously already know what I am going to be expecting as a result, therefore I might proceed on my experiment with a certain prejudice towards finding the conclusion I already expect to happen, which is exactly my point in all this. How do I keep my perceptions open and read and learn without closing a lot of doors. Difficult to do to say the least.

There is nothing new, only new assemblages of the same old things. Thus everything is new. Paradoxes....especially those abstract ones....gotta love 'em.

Sex Ed is a good example of a case in point where knowing more is better than knowing less.

Unless someone told you a wild story about God's Chef...

[nuffsaid420]

Originally Posted by euthanatos93420

Nah, What a drug does technically is meaningless. Furthermore any descriptions of actual experience One knows are utterly meaningless. Ecstasy is the best one to use as an example. Many describe their emotional response. Many describe it as 'like sex'. However....many describe heroin as 'like an orgasm'. So the relational experience is a highly subjective description.

Hmmm.. yes technically what a drug does is meaningless... I am more interested in that place you go past reasoning past ego. It's there, just hard to explain.

But people do use different drugs for different reasons. All of SWIMs peers do LSD for fun, SWIM likes isolation during LSD, no outside distractions, so a festival doesnt really work, a party doesnt work. So the drug everyone uses is meaningless, but the individuals purpose, is that of the individual, is also their own perception.

Maintaining a lack of expectation despite influence is done by understanding three things:

1)Fallibility of language to ultimately and accurately describe the experience of altered states of mind in a manner that evokes true empathy.

2)Dope varies. If you're lucky to get clean and pure shit, your own physiology and neurology varies from everyone else's.

3) People are inclined to exaggerate EVERYTHING.

These three principles apply to a helluva lot more than dope as well. They are fundamental princples of relativity that are the nature of this entirely subjective experience.

Exactly. especially number/.... alll of them shit.
1)Yes my problem.. or seen as my problem for a while.
We must use stories and metaphors to paint the pictures for other people, but wothout language it is only my perception.

2) Yes, SWIM made sure to go straight to the source.. dead fam. and gotta know the chemist, but as always most people arent concerned with this.

3)This is part of my delima. Everyone exaggerates, but mostly people with the EGO in full control do it more often, just like they will form little white lies, I've known a few pathological liers. Sometimes a little to late.

Have you caught the Synchronicty bug? LOL

Heard Patty Labelle "At Last" on the radio right beore I got home. Then later that night watching some movie in the background while reading... same song comes on! I just smiled.

His use of the word Hypothesis here is a misnomer. Assumption is a more definative term to replace it with. When one enters the realm of highly active ego fucking with you. Which is the case when dealing with little green/gray men. See this reference:
http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sho...7&postcount=78
It's a good read regardless of what you think about aliens because it's not about aliens. It's about the Ego. And the author has a great sense of humor about the deal.

386pgs.. i'll have to read it later, put it on my list. I am doing research on mayans and snake imagry right now, consumes a lot of reading time. Writing 3 papers.

Furthermore Psychedelics cause ones five senses of perception to overlap with thought and other possible methods for perception. This causes subjectivity of perception to be assessed by the Qabalistic method of logical Thought/perception veracity affirmation in ways one would not normally be forced to reckon with it.

Heh...the psychic conundrum.

Yeah like tasting colors and such. Purple is a little spicy to me, as well as yellow. And thusly becomes my perception.
Here is one of my theorems/hypothesis or something inside this.
While SWIM is in this stage/area of perception at that point only can the real learnings be had, to experiement while in this moment, but in this moment the only perception SWIM has is the scientific model, but that doesnt always work in this state of perception. And SWIM doesnt want to have these outside voices influencing SWIMs perception in this state.

This seems contradictory to me. Although, indeed the Tao te Ching is a book of many paradoxes. If one relaxes and lets the experience occur naturally one is not in control of the trip (One's subconscious is). Yet even so I see what you say. One necessarily must interact with the trip and exert even a slight amount of will over it at times. Sort of like dancing. 'Going with nature' isn't complete docility anyway. By not doing, one does. Gotta love that book putting to words all the best and most basic paradoxes of our existence.

Each our own perception. SWIM must intereact with the trip correct, but all those fractals and lines become manipulated through thought. If thought is clear then the room to manipulate becomes greatly increased(exponential). Things do start to happen. And arent we always interacting in one way or the other while alive? With nature, people, something. All these things have energy patterns, and some even have their own thoughts. It's stopping all those outside forces that I am talking about, but all those outside forces are internal ultimately, so SWIM then must be in control.

In Dr. Phil's psychedelic experience the Swirling vortex of chaos is only seen at teh penumbra. That place of fractured vision and strange perceptions that exists before the threshold of Ego Death that, when crossed, lands one into the Umbra where he finds peace.

Nice. Very poetic. And there it is. The metaphor, vocabulary to attempt to describe your perception. A shared perception.

DXM =D Seriously. Dissociation allows one to objectively percieve oneself and subsequently reprogram the mind. Some bhuddist meditation literature Dr. Phil read describe using meditation to achieve a state of 3rd person perspective about the self to better percieve oneself by removing notions of judgement.

Many paths to the same destination. Natural or drug induced.

Intuition, reason, rationale. All formulations of the ego. However these become effective skills after a good amount of introspection and personal alchemy. Even so one must still apply the above 'Qabalistic' formula.

Thank you, yes the ego can become a useful tool, but one must be "torn apart" and "rebuilt" to make good use of this tool. LOL Alchemy, naturally the progression continues.

There is nothing new, only new assemblages of the same old things. Thus everything is new. Paradoxes....especially those abstract ones....gotta love 'em.

I had this thought the other day, weird that you write this. I had this vision of emotions without time, they all occur simultaneously, but we seperate them through time.. best description right now more on that later.

Unless someone told you a wild story about God's Chef...

No, I just seen Moral Orel episode called "God's Chef" thats all I know about that.

Thanks for the ongoing conversation, I am going somewhere with this, but not sure where right now.

nuffsaid420 added 155 Minutes and 18 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by psyche

On topic, SWIM feels that one needs to take one viewpoint, and take some time to assimilate it. Let the interest carry one enough to see all the implications the supposed insight has. Entertein those notions. After that one can always question those beliefs.

Yes I agree, took me a long time to understand this concept. My dad always used to tell me to just "listen". It wasn't until I actually stopped to assimilate everything and see all the implications supposed insight has. Nice.

What if it ain't so? Then pick another viewpoint. Read something like neuropsychology and start from what we know by scientific method about consciousness. Assume that it's only a mechanical reaction in brain. After it dies there is nothing. See what implications that worldview has, what differences it has to the other, what similarities. If one has truly open mind, then consciousness as a cold brain reaction should be equally interesting; can mathematics and physics explain EXACTLY why we are what we are. What vast possibilities it would open up. Maybe in thousand years we are able to calculate with supercomputer exactly what is wrong with someone seriously mentally ill people, and be able to recreate the EXACTLY same experience for another person. Instead of photo- and telephonebooths, there might be booths where one can transform a memory, experience or feeling to another person exactly as he himself feels it. This brings also a very essential question about the confusing situation of being able to clone a person to a finest detail. Both persons now feel exactly as you. This is in my opinion very essential thing to ponder on, when e.g. mosquitos have so basic nervous system(do they even have it) that they fly as a one collective bunch, one would say they don't own much personal identity. One mosquito is like another. Maybe people are like that, but they raise their individuality as their true identity because they evolved a language. But now this is pretty much offtopic, point has been made.\

Btw, interesting thread about the topic http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sho...e+supernatural
Another one is 'what happens when you die', you can search it.

Nope not off topic, I would say on topic with the styles of perceptions we have. I couldn't have said it better myself. This seems to be the natural progression of our "evolution". Scientist and Mathematics along with many others are looking for that answer to explain why we are what we are. I personally don't think that is in our destinies, I don't think that it is part of the puzzle. Ultimately a distraction. What would we then have all of our collective consciousness turn to, if we found the answer to why we are what we are? We live partly because we are all part of the great mystery.

We are after all styling the perceptions we have about the afterlife and anything not yet proven.

nuffsaid420 added 9 Minutes and 16 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by Cryptic Concoction

From my perspective, this is purely speculation and should be understood as your subjective understanding of perception. It is not incontrovertible fact.

Likewise, my above statement is merely my perception of your perception of perception. It exists as only a sliver on the infinite spectrum of perceptual possibilities.

We are all so very narrow-minded--especially when we delude ourselves into believing that we are "open-minded."

Point well taken, trying to be open-minded seems to make people more closed minded sometimes. That of course can be overcome by becoming aware of the faults or habits one falls into when they become closed minded. Once aware one should be able to maintain a steady balance of not going where they don't need/want to go.

There are an infinite spectrum of perceptual possibilities as long as one doesn't make any decision to go down one of those possibilities. Once one goes down that perceptual path of possibilities with each step the infinite band of possibilities narrows. This I speculate is because of time and our 3D existence in time wich equals 4D.
Note:After reading this SWIM ponders if it is infinite how can it get smaller. I then tell SWIM to leave the room and bother someone else with his stories.

[Euthanatos93420]

Originally Posted by nuffsaid420

But people do use different drugs for different reasons. All of SWIMs peers do LSD for fun, SWIM likes isolation during LSD, no outside distractions, so a festival doesnt really work, a party doesnt work. So the drug everyone uses is meaningless, but the individuals purpose, is that of the individual, is also their own perception.

Swim is the same and prefers relative isolation for shamanic experiences.

386pgs.. i'll have to read it later, put it on my list. I am doing research on mayans and snake imagry right now, consumes a lot of reading time. Writing 3 papers.

It's a good humorous read whenever you have time and don't want to take life too seriously. I'd be interested in reading your report though. Both Mayan culture and Snake imagery in history (And present...) fascinate me.

Yeah like tasting colors and such. Purple is a little spicy to me, as well as yellow. And thusly becomes my perception.

I'm speaking more of Synestheisa with the '6th sense' or 'third eye' experiences.

While SWIM is in this stage/area of perception at that point only can the real learnings be had, to experiement while in this moment, but in this moment the only perception SWIM has is the scientific model, but that doesnt always work in this state of perception. And SWIM doesnt want to have these outside voices influencing SWIMs perception in this state.

That's why I prefer the Qabalistic model. It's Science for the personal experience.

but all those outside forces are internal ultimately, so SWIM then must be in control.

Bingo.

Nice. Very poetic. And there it is. The metaphor, vocabulary to attempt to describe your perception. A shared perception.

A shared but unique perception that cannot be truly conveyed. It may only be described by it's process and results...but the thing itself may never be named.

Many paths to the same destination.

See last reply...
I had this thought the other day, weird that you write this. I had this vision of emotions without time, they all occur simultaneously, but we seperate them through time.. best description right now more on that later.
[/quote]
That's synchronicity at work. Like fractals. I understand what you are trying to hint at. I've seen it myself and pondered that place many times. There are many such planes and not only for emotion.

No, I just seen Moral Orel episode called "God's Chef" thats all I know about that.

That's exactly my reference.

Thanks for the ongoing conversation, I am going somewhere with this, but not sure where right now.

Destination is often irrelevant to the purpose of the spiritual journey because purpose is the destination.

[Cryptic Concoction]

Originally Posted by nuffsaid420

You are hitting a wall my friend, imposed on your own minds limitations and established perceptions of it all. Do not go to far into the spiritual/mystical realms, for that is not the purpose. Too many people on the quest, end up staying in this place for too long. We are here to live in this world and experience everything it has to offer, don't shut yourself out.

Sounds like the EGO has not let go quite yet. The "I" is the hardest battle to win. Anyone who cannot/has not let go of the "I" and then rebuilt themselves cannot fully understand the implications of perceptions because the "I" or EGO is still controlling the perceptions. Thus SWIM became obsessed with alternate realities too feed the EGO( I say this because you said "too much is too much"- and that is ego talk)


NOTE: sometimes there is nothing wrong with feeding the ego, moderation though, and it is really hard for the EGO to moderate itself. Very delicate balancing act. Actually I'm not 100% sure, but now I feel as if my higherself is keeping my ego grounded/incheck. That is as long as I continue to communicate with my higherself.

From my perspective, this is purely speculation and should be understood as your subjective understanding of perception. It is not incontrovertible fact.

Likewise, my above statement is merely my perception of your perception of perception. It exists as only a sliver on the infinite spectrum of perceptual possibilities.

We are all so very narrow-minded--especially when we delude ourselves into believing that we are "open-minded."

[psyche]

You are hitting a wall my friend, imposed on your own minds limitations and established perceptions of it all. Do not go to far into the spiritual/mystical realms, for that is not the purpose. Too many people on the quest, end up staying in this place for too long. We are here to live in this world and experience everything it has to offer, don't shut yourself out.

Sounds like the EGO has not let go quite yet. The "I" is the hardest battle to win. Anyone who cannot/has not let go of the "I" and then rebuilt themselves cannot fully understand the implications of perceptions because the "I" or EGO is still controlling the perceptions. Thus SWIM became obsessed with alternate realities too feed the EGO( I say this because you said "too much is too much"- and that is ego talk)


NOTE: sometimes there is nothing wrong with feeding the ego, moderation though, and it is really hard for the EGO to moderate itself. Very delicate balancing act. Actually I'm not 100% sure, but now I feel as if my higherself is keeping my ego grounded/incheck. That is as long as I continue to communicate with my higherself.

Yeah, sure, it is the ego talking there you mention. No problem as long as both parties have mutual understanding of the situation.

On topic, SWIM feels that one needs to take one viewpoint, and take some time to assimilate it. Let the interest carry one enough to see all the implications the supposed insight has. Entertein those notions. After that one can always question those beliefs.

What if it ain't so? Then pick another viewpoint. Read something like neuropsychology and start from what we know by scientific method about consciousness. Assume that it's only a mechanical reaction in brain. After it dies there is nothing. See what implications that worldview has, what differences it has to the other, what similarities. If one has truly open mind, then consciousness as a cold brain reaction should be equally interesting; can mathematics and physics explain EXACTLY why we are what we are. What vast possibilities it would open up. Maybe in thousand years we are able to calculate with supercomputer exactly what is wrong with someone seriously mentally ill people, and be able to recreate the EXACTLY same experience for another person. Instead of photo- and telephonebooths, there might be booths where one can transform a memory, experience or feeling to another person exactly as he himself feels it. This brings also a very essential question about the confusing situation of being able to clone a person to a finest detail. Both persons now feel exactly as you. This is in my opinion very essential thing to ponder on, when e.g. mosquitos have so basic nervous system(do they even have it) that they fly as a one collective bunch, one would say they don't own much personal identity. One mosquito is like another. Maybe people are like that, but they raise their individuality as their true identity because they evolved a language. But now this is pretty much offtopic, point has been made.

Btw, interesting thread about the topic http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sho...e+supernatural
Another one is 'what happens when you die', you can search it.

[Euthanatos93420]

Likewise, my above statement is merely my perception of your perception of perception. It exists as only a sliver on the infinite spectrum of perceptual possibilities.

But one must be careful to not step into that nihilistic degradation.

"A spiritual leader is like a finger pointing toward the moon, you can't see the moon if you're looking at the finger." -Buddhist metaphor.

[psyche]

Just a little thought that occured to me. If we were to make a clone, clicking 'on' the clone's consciousness would propably feel like a shared déja vu. It would have the knowledge that this conscious experience has been experienced before since the memories of the past life would snap into living experience. (Both would have to go through that experience in order for them having the exact same brain status as a starting point.)

And then the clone would go on with it's life, starting from a same situation but going on to different path since it doesn't have exactly the same perceptual input, and a little different things are going to happen in it's life since it's treated as another person. But always knowing that it has(or had) exactly similar consciousness to someone else. I think this is what happens to each of us in the moment of birth, too.

[Euthanatos93420]

I love the question why. It has given me so many answers and showed me so many truths. Truths that are ultimately irrelevant to that purpose you describe. The sharing of enlightenment with others.

How then becomes the ultimate question but lets not forget about: who, when, & where.

I think Psyche is trying to say that we are all clones. individuality is achieved through experience. Although the experience of our fathers determines our own experience.

[nuffsaid420]

Originally Posted by Euthanatos93420

I love the question why. It has given me so many answers and showed me so many truths. Truths that are ultimately irrelevant to that purpose you describe. The sharing of enlightenment with others.

How then becomes the ultimate question but lets not forget about: who, when, & where.

Yes and to expand on perceptions we are then creating perceptions for people when we answer questions.

"Do not speak of that which you do not understand."

Too many times people answer others with matter of fact answers when they themselves do not understand the subject.

Ex: My father recently told me everything he knows about chiggers is wrong. From him, I assumed this information fact, we used nail polish remover on the little bumps they produce because my father was told matter of fact that chiggers dig into you and that you have to suffocate them. Well this is wrong, they actually secrete and enzyme that causes the skin to liquify below the surface so they can drink it and leave. They never attach themselves to you.

So here we have one of the issues I bring up. The "facts" people answer you with when "why" is asked, this will never bring a total understanding as I can continue to ask why forever. (Why nail polish? Because it suffocates them...Why? and on...)

I think Psyche is trying to say that we are all clones. individuality is achieved through experience. Although the experience of our fathers determines our own experience.

Right I understand, but if you get an exact clone made of yourself with all the same mermories as you and has the same accumulated experience, then my assumption would have to lead me to believe your clone would continue to live a similar if not parallel existence. The older we get the more set in our ways we are. Now there is always the acception of moments in time where big decisions are made and the clone will make a different decision than you, but if it has all your experience, what you would decide would have to inevitable be what your clone decides, after he/she is you right?

Which brings me to my next question about this clone thing, if that were the case, would the clone have a shared soul, or its own soul? Would my energies then be divided between me and my clone? If he has his own soul and it is not part of mine then he must have different exeprience although most experiences will be shared? This is where I loose it.

nuffsaid420 added 13 Minutes and 6 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by psyche

I think it could. I think that the composition of brain does hold all the info gathered during lifetime, after all there are quite a few combinations possible between brain cells. Anyway, possible or not, in my idea there is a machine that can generate physically an exact copy of a human being, including brains to the finest detail. Like a flash of lightning and suddenly there is two exactly similar bodies, and in my frame of mind similar minds. But now that I think of it more, the extent of the experince of snapping into living is only a question of how recent memories would be wiped out to induce the effect of sudden birth for both. Not anything so absolute as I originally thought.

Ok, this makes it a little clearer. So we are talking about the clone being my same age and with the same experiences at the time of conception. Then I can easily see the connection of shared experiences. I do not however think a brand new baby will ever have the cognitive function of a full grown adult.Speech, Hand-Eye, Vocabulary are all remembered as our brains develop, our brains do not stay the same size our entire life's. I guess i'm trying to say is that our clone would have to have some kind of amnesia.. short term.

Interesting still to think about the situation without wiping any memory out; you would suddenly find yourself next to yourself knowing that you have just been cloned to existence, yet you feel like you have lived all your life. It's only a sudden shift in position.

But the soul issue again, what makes us our aura, would it be split? or then two whole versions be here on earth, and if that is the case, well that's a totally different subject.

Would you dare to clone a helper-clone for yourself in this way? It is easy to emphatise to the feeling that the clone goes through when it discovers it's own history and life for the first time. So easy that you start to think that if you are too empathic of the clone at the big moment, it could as well happen to you and you would be the one who has to do all the laundry from there onwards.

I wouldn't want a helper clone, I worry about my aura,soul, ka, ect. would be split or something.
Maybe we just tell the clone it has been in a coma a long time and it is your twin, maybe that will soften the blow?

When euthanatos said that 'purpose is destination', he meant that they are the same thing. He was saying that Destination is irrelevant for the spiritual journey as long as it exists as a concept of something that isn't here, but is relevant when it exists as a purpose of the current moment.

We should live in a world full of questions rather than answers. At the moment of birth of every answer, it explodes to millions of new questions. Answers are only interesting because of the question they carry, 'what possibilities does this open up?'.

First, out of nothing there comes something, for example a start of conversation. A stranger gives 1 to another 'it's a nice weather outside'. 1 must be given back by courtesy at least, and in a form of experience the fact is 'oh yes, it is' or 'really marvelous'. After some 1-1's start to have similarities or form an interesting pattern, 2 is born as a new level of conversation. Something as basic as 'yeh, it's not like yesterday when it rained all day'. Now we have touched the three dimensions for normal small talk to make them relative: good, bad and time. And that's small talk numbers :P

Math the universal language.

Nice concept, I totally follow you here, asking questions, just shows us more questions. This seems to be the never ending case. As the journey continues we find more questions than answers, I'm not sure if this will ever change. We need to be clear though that all questions and paths those questions can lead down can be of folly. (my example of chiggers further up)

This is where my comment on the "why's" originate. Sometimes it seems like the road some conversations can go only will tend to confuse the less orientated. This is another style of perception.

[psyche]

Interesting thought, but I disagree a little.

We are assuming this clone is generated as a fully grown adult, in my research it would seem that the clone would have to start from baby. So would that baby have all shared experiences with original? That would be interesting to have a new born with the brainpower of an adult, dont see that happening, the brain has to develop neural connections over time, it couldnt start with all the memories intact, or could it?

I think it could. I think that the composition of brain does hold all the info gathered during lifetime, after all there are quite a few combinations possible between brain cells. Anyway, possible or not, in my idea there is a machine that can generate physically an exact copy of a human being, including brains to the finest detail. Like a flash of lightning and suddenly there is two exactly similar bodies, and in my frame of mind similar minds. But now that I think of it more, the extent of the experince of snapping into living is only a question of how recent memories would be wiped out to induce the effect of sudden birth for both. Not anything so absolute as I originally thought.

Interesting still to think about the situation without wiping any memory out; you would suddenly find yourself next to yourself knowing that you have just been cloned to existence, yet you feel like you have lived all your life. It's only a sudden shift in position.

Would you dare to clone a helper-clone for yourself in this way? It is easy to emphatise to the feeling that the clone goes through when it discovers it's own history and life for the first time. So easy that you start to think that if you are too empathic of the clone at the big moment, it could as well happen to you and you would be the one who has to do all the laundry from there onwards.


When euthanatos said that 'purpose is destination', he meant that they are the same thing. He was saying that Destination is irrelevant for the spiritual journey as long as it exists as a concept of something that isn't here, but is relevant when it exists as a purpose of the current moment.

We should live in a world full of questions rather than answers. At the moment of birth of every answer, it explodes to millions of new questions. Answers are only interesting because of the question they carry, 'what possibilities does this open up?'.
Edit:

I think Psyche is trying to say that we are all clones. individuality is achieved through experience. Although the experience of our fathers determines our own experience.

Yes, pretty much so.

psyche added 312 Minutes and 51 Seconds later...

Thinking about it again, there could be found absolute line as to how much memory to wipe provided by nature. Short-term memory must be completely different from long-term memory, as long term memory is in my understanding the strengthening of synaptic connections in general. Short-term memory is more like a dynamic process of keeping actively something in memory in a way that requires effort and energy to be used, possibly breaking down to different frequencys interacting(it could be that all consciousness simply boils down to interconnected parts of brain interfering with each other's frequency, and the function/meaning of every area in brain is related to how far away they are in chainreaction from different senses, and how they are wired to battle/affect each other.).

I'd like to start a business in the future; at the beginning of the procedure I would put the clone-model and clone-slave down chemically and syncronize their brain completely and then wake 'em up. There is only one problem in this slave-cloning thing: the slave would continnually complain about the unfairness of he himself being the one that wanted to make a slave for himself

Interesting indeed how the fibonacci number seem to relate to the question-answer=more questions pattern. Here's a graphic demonstration of the numbers:



First, out of nothing there comes something, for example a start of conversation. A stranger gives 1 to another 'it's a nice weather outside'. 1 must be given back by courtesy at least, and in a form of experience the fact is 'oh yes, it is' or 'really marvelous'. After some 1-1's start to have similarities or form an interesting pattern, 2 is born as a new level of conversation. Something as basic as 'yeh, it's not like yesterday when it rained all day'. Now we have touched the three dimensions for normal small talk to make them relative: good, bad and time. And that's small talk numbers :P

[Euthanatos93420]

.0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987, 1597,2584,4181,6765,
..............0.1.1...2..3...5..8...13...21...34.. 55..89...144...233..377 ... 0
................................0..1....1....2.... .3...5....8....13......................0
.................................................. ........0....1.....1......2....3.........0
.10946,17711,28657,46368,75025
.1.......1.........2......3........8?

Does 5 disappear? If we followed and analyzed this pattern are all the numbers skipped at a point in this pattern?

Essentially....0,1,1,2,3,0,1,1,2,3,0,1,1,2,3,0,1,1 ,2,1,1,2,3.....

Then once the greater pattern is analyzed for skips what is the skip pattern that emerges?

5=0 Anyone ever heard of Discordianism?

There are 4 quintessential elements to the great pattern.

There are four states of energy:

QED (Gravity, Strong, weak, and electromagnetic)
Electromagnetic (IR, visible spectrum,UV, Particle waves)
Motion (Sound, inertia, force, gravity)
Matter (solid, liquid, gas, plasma)

I knew a guy once that could explain how all numbers when written out and their letters counted would equal four.

One=three=five=4
two=three=five=4
Three=five=4
Four=4
Five=4
Six=three=five=4
Seven=five=4
Eight=5=4
Nine=4
Ten=3=5=4
Etc....try it with any giant arbitrary number.

This guy is fairly obsessed with fractals, fibonacci, and the number four:
http://beyondthepoles.blogspot.com/


Of course I could go on about the significance of numbers...but I don't want to derail this thread too much. If it's of interest we can create a thread called numerology or something.