Other - Kratom shows up positive for opiates / opioids ?

[oggy]

Sorry if this has already been posted before. SWIM had a urine drug screen and was positive for opiates. The only drug/herb he was taking at the time was Kratom. SWIM's not heard of this before so he thought he'd post this up to warn others.

[robin_himself]

"This is very much known. Use the search engine and you will find more information on this."

Hmm... sorry if i judged to quickly. But swim has heard of this from alot of people. Swim doesn't have any scientific evidence right now but will make an effort to find it. Again.. sorry!

[oggy]

Whoops sorry. I never knew about this before.

[Richard_smoker]

wait just a second.

i just used the search engine, and all i found were threads and threads declaring that kratom could NEVER trip a positive on a drug screen that selects for morphine and other opiate break-down products. the posters claim that mytragine has no structural byproducts that are able to trigger a false positive.

perhaps i searched incorrectly, but this is definitely news to me. and i'll just say right now that this is NOT GOOD NEWS!

If it's true that urine drugs-of-abuse screens in the U.S. are equipped to detect Kratom, I bet 1/2 the people in this country who have taken it would have either been more careful with spreading out their experiments or they would have passed altogether.

someone please clarify the position on this subject. And, if anyone knows about MS/GC confirmation, please enlighten members like me who are in the dark. -DICK

[Richard_smoker]

will someone please confirm (or deny) this rumor!??

oggy, did they do a confirmation test, where they send the results off to a lab and they will "let you know" the results later?

this is very important.

as far as i can tell, kratom is active on the opiate receptors yet does NOT have the molecular conformation as morphine, heroin, codeine, or synthetics. therefore, your positive must have been a "false positive." and that's what confirmation (lab) test were designed for...so people don't lose their jobs based on a false negative UA.

The ONLY other explanation is that there is a specific antibody-test that detects kratom excretion. I HIGHY doubt this as it is neither controlled nor illegal. As such, are we subject to testing to see if we've eaten okra or squash in the last week?? just because someone side-stepped the usual progression of events and 'decided' that kratom use = drug use although it continues to be legal? not likely.

[oggy]

Originally Posted by Richard_smoker

oggy, did they do a confirmation test, where they send the results off to a lab and they will "let you know" the results later?

All I know is SWIM gave a urine sample and the next time SWIM saw the doctor they said it was positive for opiates. The only drug/herb SWIM had been taking at the time was kratom so he figures it must have been the kratom.

[RoboCop]

Swim has been using kratom semi daily, as well as being UA'd by strips/sometimes getting sent to a lab. Kratom has never triped any positive. Im sorry if you got a negative but from all research I have done as well as SWIMS first hand experiences this is not true. Swims gonna keep drinking his favorite substance UAs or no.

Reputation Comments on this post:

thank you! very informative

[Jasim]

Swim works in a toxicology laboratory. This lab conducts urine and blood drug screens and tests. The lab has an immuno-analysis machine which uses antibodies selected against drug receptors in the brain. This means that any chemical, irregardless of its structure, that activates a given receptor will be detected as a positive. Unfortunately this type of technology is becoming less expensive and more common.



If a quantitative confirmation test is done, it will be negative, because no confirmation testing is done for kratom. Confirmation tests are chemically specific. Unfortunately it is well known within the industry that the immuno-analysis screens are almost never wrong. Just because they can't pinpoint the exact chemical, doesn't really say much. And they know it.

Thanks for the post, swim is a kratom user and it never occured to swim that kratom could screen positive. Fail =(

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Thanks for the expert info.
	valuable information. Keep it coming!
	great info!!
	Great info!!! A+ gold star
	This information is critical; it means some serious investigation is necessary. THANKS! :-D
	Thank you for the very useful personal experience, glad someone with some personal info and knowledge helped us out!
	I for one didn't know about this technology. Thanks for sharing.
	Very informative post.
	really good information

[Richard_smoker]

wow Jasim! that's some serious info there!

i've never once heard of this being the basis of any immunoassay (i.e. dipstick) test, but it sure as hell makes sense. especially now, with the internet/information spreading like wildfire/ new& questionable curiosities that can impair one's thinking without obviously being an illegal drug--in a case like this, with a negative GC/MS follow-up--if it were a LEGAL proceeding, I could see them freezing your sample for more elaborate testing AS NEWER "legal highs" ARE DISCOVERED!!

well, all paranoia and such aside, i just want to verify here--if the GC/MS comes back negative, then your "positive" immunoassay has been officially DEBUNKED! correct? After the 2 week waiting period (sweating period), the final confirmatory test should be NEGATIVE. no ifs, ands or buts.

however, oggy, if your "doctor" did the test, then there's only 1 reaction that you should have: ADAMANTLY DENY THAT YOU'VE TAKEN ANY OPIATE KNOWN TO MAN! why? because they'll be forced to run a confirmatory test to prove what substance you had taken. answer? NOTHING. then they will apologize to you.

-DICK

[Jasim]

Originally Posted by Richard_smoker

if the GC/MS comes back negative, then your "positive" immunoassay has been officially DEBUNKED! correct?
-DICK

It depends on the circumstance. If the drug test is for some non-criminal reason, such as for work or a job, then the screen could be enough to get swiy into trouble. But criminal cases, it can vary depending upon the region and the circumstances.
In the USA, if the matter is pressed (meaning swiy has a decent lawyer), then it ultimately comes down to whether or not the prosecutor is able to obtain a quantitative value for an identified chemical. Screens do not give quantitative values.

At the moment this means GC/MS, HPLC, or a related technique. However the immuno-based machine that swim has in his lab (costing approx. $900,000) gives semi-quantitative values. And the technology is moving towards greater accuracy with fully quantitative values.

Swim speculates that a push will be made to be able to determine binding potency to a given receptor (very possible theoretically). This information, combined with a quantitative value for an unknown analyte would be enough so that the chemical wouldn't have to be identified at all and would fully stand up in court.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Great info on the different drug tests. Thanks.

[Richard_smoker]

Originally Posted by Jasim

It depends on the circumstance. If the drug test is for some non-criminal reason, such as for work or a job, then the screen could be enough to get swiy into trouble. But criminal cases, it can vary depending upon the region and the circumstances.
In the USA, if the matter is pressed (meaning swiy has a decent lawyer), then it ultimately comes down to whether or not the prosecutor is able to obtain a quantitative value for an identified chemical. Screens do not give quantitative values.

At the moment this means GC/MS, HPLC, or a related technique. However the immuno-based machine that swim has in his lab (costing approx. $900,000) gives semi-quantitative values. And the technology is moving towards greater accuracy with fully quantitative values.

Swim speculates that a push will be made to be able to determine binding potency to a given receptor (very possible theoretically). This information, combined with a quantitative value for an unknown analyte would be enough so that the chemical wouldn't have to be identified at all and would fully stand up in court.

i see where you're coming from, and i think it's one of those situations where the poor, ignorant, paranoid/afraid, uneducated members of society (i.e. not a good lawyer, not white--sorry, but true, or those who have NO LAWYER or any other knowledgeable helper) get screwed because they don't realize their INHERENT RIGHTS.

as far as i know, there is absolutely NO LAW IN ANY COUNTRY that prohibits a compound which happens to bind to a known 'pleasure' receptor.

prime example is endorphins. People who run every day will probably piss out TONS of opiate receptor-binding neurotransmitters. hell, there's a reason why we have the receptors in the first place. usually, it's because our bodies make neurotransmitters that fit right in there--like a lock and key.

That's why the GC/MS confirmation test will totally, 100% absolve you of ANY WRONGDOING in the event of a false positive UA.

now, this also brings up the issue of the 2 basic kinds of tests: sensitive and specific.

Sensitive tests are for SCREENING PURPOSES. They have a VERY LOW margin of error. If you test positive for a sensitive test, it does NOT mean that you're actually positive. It just means that the next step is a SPECIFIC TEST.

SPECIFIC TESTS: These tests are calibrated for extreme specificity. in other words, if you failed the 1st test, you then take the specific test (usually more expensive)--like GC/MS to determine SPECIFICALLY if your initial positive test result was validly positive--or, was it just a false positive.

Realize that in order to catch ALL DISEASES (or in this case, all drug users), the 1st test (sensitive) is specifically designed so that there is virtually 0% of people who you tell "everything's fine. no disease." however, they actually HAVE THE DISEASE.

There are plenty of examples of this firstensitive and secondpecific testing in the medical world--not just drug testing.

i.e. sensitive test: routine (cheap) Complete Blood Count/analysis-where a computer totals up how many red blood cells you have versus white blood cells versus platelets.

this test is very inexpensive, and good to run just to 'be sure' everything's ok.

if something doesn't look right with that test, THEN you go on to the SPECIFIC (expensive) test like analyzing for tumor markers or paying a pathologist to look at the tissue sample under a microscope to actually SEE if there are any cancer/leukemia cells.

Drug testing is the same way. People will walk all over you if you let them. a shitty drug-tester might not even tell you that there's a REALLY high false-positive rate on the initial dipstick test. You have to KNOW to deny, deny, deny. Demand the "specific" test. unless you're really just busted, the 2nd test will reveal that you're actually negative.

-DICK

Reputation Comments on this post:

thanks for the very wise post... swim really enjoy your input... lots of info and takes lots of time so thanks it is ver...

[Dreamland]

Are you seriouss??????????????????????????

SWIM just recently found out that SWIM is 'permenant' at SWIM's job, and still has to go in for a drug screen.. SWIM was 99.9% that kratom wouldn't show up positive.. SWIM has posted this on other forums, and all responses pointed to 'NO'. not possible considering that they do not test for kratom/mitragynine compounds. SWIM has been told that others that are daily users, went in for a drug test, even hair stran test, and SWIT said it came out negative..

SWIM's really upset now.. SWIM is a daily user of kratom.. This sucks.. NOt to mention, SWIM purchased a over-the-counter drug testing kit,
and SWIM pissed in the plastic cup, and passed with flying covers.. The kit claimed to be 99.9% accurate.. SWIM dunno tho.. do they test for mytragynine compounds?

SWIM heard a rumor SWIT tested positive for PCP while on kratom.. WTF? but then again SWIT was also taking effexor and heard something like that coulda been the reason why..

Dammit, now SWIM is mad.. SWIM never thought this would be possible to show up like this.. SWIM's job is the best thing that ever happened to sWIM. SWIM seems kratom has a helpful miracle plant to relieve depression and SWIm's anxiety..

It would be a true shame, if they didn't hire SWIM for the job, because SWIM somehow tested something positive because of kratom..

Fuck!

[Richard_smoker]

Originally Posted by kratom21

Are you seriouss??????????????????????????

SWIM just recently found out that SWIM is 'permenant' at SWIM's job, and still has to go in for a drug screen.. SWIM was 99.9% that kratom wouldn't show up positive.. SWIM has posted this on other forums, and all responses pointed to 'NO'. not possible considering that they do not test for kratom/mitragynine compounds. SWIM has been told that others that are daily users, went in for a drug test, even hair stran test, and SWIT said it came out negative..

SWIM's really upset now.. SWIM is a daily user of kratom.. This sucks.. NOt to mention, SWIM purchased a over-the-counter drug testing kit,
and SWIM pissed in the plastic cup, and passed with flying covers.. The kit claimed to be 99.9% accurate.. SWIM dunno tho.. do they test for mytragynine compounds?

SWIM heard a rumor SWIT tested positive for PCP while on kratom.. WTF? but then again SWIT was also taking effexor and heard something like that coulda been the reason why..

Dammit, now SWIM is mad.. SWIM never thought this would be possible to show up like this.. SWIM's job is the best thing that ever happened to sWIM. SWIM seems kratom has a helpful miracle plant to relieve depression and SWIm's anxiety..

It would be a true shame, if they didn't hire SWIM for the job, because SWIM somehow tested something positive because of kratom..

Fuck!

listen...do NOT worry about it...unless you've been taking anything OTHER than kratom, you'll be fine and here's why.

if someone calls you after the test to 'see' what meds you're on (a medical review officer), you just say "NONE!" (unless you're actually taking something else which you've got a script for like valium, xanax, adderall, ativan, diazepam, alprazolam, lorazepam, temazepam, midazolam, oxazepam, etc.---btw, these will be considered a TRUE positive since they're all illegal without a prescription...if you have taken any of these drugs and you've GOT a script, then the med review officer's call is telling you that SOMETHING came up funny on your screen.

now, granted that you do NOT admit to doing anything illegal to the MRO (beware! reasonable estimates tell us that THIS conversation is responsible for up to 50% of drug-users giving the MRO a REASON to stamp "POSITIVE DRUG USE" on your file! in other words: IF YOU ADMIT IT, YOU'RE GUILTY, YOU FAIL THE TEST!)...in this case, no need for an expensive GC/MS cuz the MRO has baited you into confessing to use illegal, mind-altering drugs. for this, they report "POSITIVE DRUG USER."

so that's why you must adamantly DENY any opiates or other drugs to this and any other people. They will then be FORCED to run a confirmation test (GC/MS) and you will definitely PASS the GC/MS.

see?

as long as you're clear otherwise, then you have NOTHING to worry about! ok? -DICK

[Richard_smoker]

yeah, i'd go ahead and tell them about ALL your scripts...

wellbutrin shouldn't trip up anything, but i'd still tell them, be sure you tell them about the benzos and be sure you have NOT take any other kinds of benzos than the kind you are prescribed as they can tell this and you'll fail---

i.e. i have a friend who took a bunch of xanax over 5-6 days, then was totally clean for 23 DAYS before his urine quit testing positive for benzos!!!

if he had done that at his job, they would have found out EXACTLY what benzo(s) he had taken!

needless to say, he has NEVER taken another benzo since... (out of fear) -DICK

[Dreamland]

Originally Posted by Richard_smoker

yeah, i'd go ahead and tell them about ALL your scripts...

wellbutrin shouldn't trip up anything, but i'd still tell them, be sure you tell them about the benzos and be sure you have NOT take any other kinds of benzos than the kind you are prescribed as they can tell this and you'll fail---

i.e. i have a friend who took a bunch of xanax over 5-6 days, then was totally clean for 23 DAYS before his urine quit testing positive for benzos!!!

if he had done that at his job, they would have found out EXACTLY what benzo(s) he had taken!

needless to say, he has NEVER taken another benzo since... (out of fear) -DICK

Slightly OT, but wouldn't wellbutrin(bupropion) test positive for methcanthine?

Wow, that sucks to hear about SWIY's friend.. how long do benzos stay in SWIY's system though??

Also, SWIM hasn't smoked any smoking blends (e.g. chillin xxx, spice gold, zohai, as SWIM worried it could show up as some THC analog.)

kratom21 added 2 Minutes and 40 Seconds later...

Sorry. SWIM meant to say Methcathinone.

NOT methcanthine which is a word that don't exist, LOL.

[psilocybley]

Originally Posted by Richard_smoker

yeah, i'd go ahead and tell them about ALL your scripts...

wellbutrin shouldn't trip up anything

Wellbutrin COULD conceivably cause a false positive for amphetamine. Chemically bupropion is a phenethylamine, but I was under the impression that it has the amphetamine skeleton in it's molecule. All the more reason to tell them what meds SWIY is on.

[Stephenwolf]

DXM has tested for opiates on a few dif. reports on erowid, it has also caused a few false positives for PCP, i think.

[OhCasey]

Originally Posted by Stephenwolf

DXM has tested for opiates on a few dif. reports on erowid, it has also caused a few false positives for PCP, i think.

That statement isnt backed up by any real medical journals or studies. Its all urban legend as far as a very small number of DXM users who by powder from dealers who may have had the product come into contact with other illicits they sale.

[static_vodka_420]

Originally Posted by OhCasey

That statement isnt backed up by any real medical journals or studies. Its all urban legend as far as a very small number of DXM users who by powder from dealers who may have had the product come into contact with other illicits they sale.

swim would just like too add he was on dxm and right as it was peaking he had a piss test and it showed it come back as pcp on screening then nothing in lab his dxm came strate out of his doctors loving bottle so there may be some real basis for this other than the aforememtioned.. or maybe swim just has wierd piss

static_vodka_420 added 4 Minutes and 31 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by oggy

Methadone isn't an opiate but a synthetic opioid, however methadone will show up positive for opiates.

on a completelly different test says swim one for gneral opiates eg morphine codiene heroin dihydrocodinei

one for methadone

one for oxycodone and hydromorphone

one for hydrocodone

and one for suboxone

[Richard_smoker]

just because wellbutrin COULD trip a false-positive on a urine screen has absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact that it's wellbutrin. they don't give a shit if it's in your system since it isnt' really controlled, have extremely LOW potential for abuse, and since it's such a popular drug with an extended track record, there's really no such thing as a med like this causing a known FALSE POSITIVE result...that's one reason we pay the drug-testing labs such HUGE FEES--cuz those labs are extensively calibrated, tuned, and parameters constantly being altered so as to push efficiency as high as possible and to artifically force precision to close to 100%.

[Stephenwolf]

This is terribly off topic but wouldn't want anyone failing a test from this, so ... Here is a link to several reports of Dxm Cough Syrup/pills showing positive, usually for PCP, 2 of them rang positive for Opiates, this isn't Every False Positive report erowid had to offer, just several... Regardless of the False Positive, the Lab test after would show clean....
There is No scientific evidence to back it up, but beings as it wasn't just DXM powder users claiming this, i cannot leave it as an "urban Legend"
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=24819
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=31287
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=49504
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=67107
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=40709 (non-recreational dose)
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=68044
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=73095 (opiates)
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=28023 (opiates)

[OhCasey]

Originally Posted by Stephenwolf

This is terribly off topic but wouldn't want anyone failing a test from this, so ... Here is a link to several reports of Dxm Cough Syrup/pills showing positive, usually for PCP, 2 of them rang positive for Opiates, this isn't Every False Positive report erowid had to offer, just several... Regardless of the False Positive, the Lab test after would show clean....
There is No scientific evidence to back it up, but beings as it wasn't just DXM powder users claiming this, i cannot leave it as an "urban Legend"
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=24819
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=31287
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=49504
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=67107
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=40709 (non-recreational dose)
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=68044
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=73095 (opiates)
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=28023 (opiates)

Are you serious? Since when does 2 erowid reports make any claim even semi reliable? The studies that have been done on DXM tripping a Urine Screen for opiates have come to the conclusion that its not likely, though they arent really doing it at high doses. Id be inclined to think the 2 false positive reports could be explained in a more reasonable manner but feel free to think otherwise. If you ever did test positive for opiates when you didnt take any all you have to do is wait for the confirmation test and youd be clear.

[nick760]

SWIM was going to try some Kratom in the near future but after reading this thread is now freaking out. Do any SWIYs know how the long Kratom would be detectable by the method mentioned above? What about other types of drug tests - hair, etc?

[Jasim]

For most general drug tests kratom should not show up. Swim works for a state department that does drug tests for criminal cases. The point swim was trying to make here is that for certain drug screens it's possible that kratom could screen a positive. And nowhere does hair tests, except perhaps for certain government or military jobs.
The point swim wants to make now is that for most people in ordinary situations, swim doesn't think you have much to worry about. It's unlikely unless perhaps one is a chronic user of very high doses. The only reason swim would be concerned as a kratom user is that he has a government job.

[nate81]

MOD EDITED, do not self incriminate
---------------
NO NO NO, kratom does NOT show up on an opiate test. swim has taken kratom weeks at a time and the morning OF a drug test with no positives. Multiple tests over years have shown up clean.