Effects - Why does this work for me?

[hensley258]

Hello all.

I am new to the forum and have some serious questions to ask about Opiates in relation to my 17 year battle with Severe treatment resistant depressive dissorder.

I will try to make this as short as possible.

I have never taken any (non-perscription drugs) in my entire life. When I was 23 years old (now 39) I started suffering from Very severe Depression. It was so bad that I was put in the hospital for a suicide attempt. At the time I honestly thought I was going insane. My mind was paralized by severe anxiety and depression that made my head, body and mind feel heavy. It got so bad that thoughts of my death actually made me feel warm and safe.

Fast foward.... I was diagnosed by a Psychiatrist as suffering from what is called (Severe non-situational uni-polar depression and Anaxiey dissorder)
I was put on an antidepressant and in about 8 weeks I felt "normal" again. Not high or spacy, just normal. Kind of like it adjusted the chemical imbalance in my brain.

Foward 5 years: The medication started failing and my Psychiatrist put me on a different antidepressant. In several weeks I responded and felt normal again. Like I did before I was diagnised with this condition.

Foward 4 more years: Now that medication pooped out on me even at high dosgaes and I was put on an additional medication for severe depression. It got me back in a remissive state and I was functional again.

Anyway, here I am 17 years later and now even the most powerful Antidepressants such as Tri-cyclic and tetra-cyclic meds are only giving me partial relief from my Severe Depressive condition. I feel like shit almost all the time. I want to put a gun to my head everyday, as my mind and body tremble with the swurling tempist that only Severe depression can do.

Stay with me here (I'm getting to the Opiate part)
A couple weeks ago a friend gave me a couple Vicodine because my back was hurting after helping him move. (never taken any opiate in my life)

They were very low dosage. I only took half the tablet one day, and then another half tablet the next day for pain.

OMG! What happened! The second day on this tiny dosage of Vicodine the symptoms of my depression completly vaporized! I didn't feel high, stoned or spacy. It just made me feel normal like I did many years prior to being diagnosed with severe depression.

The effects only lasted a couple days, but wow! I actually felt normal.
(When you suffer from depression at my advanced level, normal is a hard thing to feel again)

I talked to another person on my depression forum that is using Suboxone for his Severe Treatment resistant depression and he said it saved his life. he is living again. Not high, not stoned, just normal. he, like me was never an opiate user and is not taking it for addiction reasons. He takes it in very small dosages for his severe depression.

What can I do? Even the most powerful MAOI antidepressant meds are not offering me much relief from my condition, yet there seems to be something to Opiates that is very therputic in terms of treating my Severe cronic depression.

I can't ask my doctor to try Suboxone for my treatment. He will think I'm trying to get high or something. Trust me, that's not the case. It's just that for some unknown reason very low dosages of opiates correct my 17 year battle with depression.

Yes, I know it's not a cure and it can be addictive, but shit so is all the antidepressant poison that my Psychiartist feeds me just to keep me fuctional!

Bottom line is that for some unknown reason when I tried just that tiny bit of Opiate it really made me feel normal. Like my brain said, "That is the key."

I've never touched opiates or any illigal drug in my life, but damn it this stuff works to put my symptoms of constant doom and dread in a remissive state. It works like Antidepressants used to work for me many years ago. Just makes me feel normal, focused, and adjusted like a normal person feels everyday.

It's bad people. My Depression has gotton so bad that my Psychiatrist is now trying to suggest ECT! You know, Where they use electrodes to induce a Grand maul sesure to eliviate the refractory depression.

I am very close to suicide because my depression has gotton so bad. I am even at the point of activly planing my suicide.

My condition is getting worse and soon I will kill myself because my condition compells me to end the suffering.

Yet there is an opiate that offers me life that really works.
I don't have an addictive personality. Do you think a mild Opiate could save my life and give me back my functionality?

Why does this stuff work so well as an antidepressant, when my antidepressant meds hardly do shit to help?

How can I find a doctor that understands this is life and death for me? My situation is drastic and my time is limited without the normalcy that I know the correct opiate can provide.

Again, this is not to get high. It just takes away the torment of my severe depression and anxiety.

Do I have to become a criminal and buy the drug illigally? I don't care! My condition is a death sentence anyway.

Please give your thoughts and experienced advice. I know this is not a depression forum and I know my condition of Severe depression may sound petty, but trust me it is very grave and no doubt it will end my life soon if I can't find relief from it.

Just trust me when I say to you that this level of depression is so intense that most people would just blow their brains out if they could feel it's rath like I do everyday.

[bloot]

Before SWIM will answer your questions he wants SWIY to be aware that it is against the rules to incriminate yourself.

[fiveleggedrat]

Having dealt with severe depression and suicidal thoughts since a young age, Swim will tell you his thoughts: There is no real answer.

IMHO, opioids for depression is a bad idea. Swim also has a nonaddictive personality.

Reason for being a bad idea is after a while, that lovely feeling with not be there anymore. If Swiy is taking them often, Swiy will build up a tolerance, and with that, physical addiction. Even if Swiy was to use, say, ONLY once or twice a week to avoid getting physically addicted, the possibility of addiction goes down quite a bit, but tolerance can still go up.

Swim used to rely on opioids and marijuana for anxiety, which to this day, he has been able to get diagnosed but not obtain any type of prescription or medication. Today, both drugs hardly do anything anymore. Swim also has bouts of severe depression (which he has not had in years) from not being able to get high daily on ANYTHING, which he used to. Now, it's more like 3-4 days a week, and often on things Swim does not even care much for, but it's something.

IMHO, again, Swim would say the best thing in this case: Either psychedelic therapy or MDMA (Ecstasy) therapy. Swim believes either of these would allow Swiy to access their problems, identify the cause of the depression, and act on it. The MDMA would allow the ego to be brought down temporarily so Swiy could also work on issues.

Antidepressant meds are a joke. They are a lie, IMHO. They do not address depression or it's cause. Excess serotonin in the brain will not solve depression. Opioids make you feel good. Swim has self medicated with antidepressants before to test them out, and wow, what a joke. I believe statistics say only 20% of people on them actually get relief.

Don't let me hold you back, but I doubt any doctor will write a script for anything even remotely recreational without Swiy walking in with broken bones or a drastic physical condition; doctors are very against giving out opioids. The illegal route is a difficult one usually. It's not the legal aspect thats always a problem, either, but actually finding and getting shit safely.

Has Swiy ever considered being put on a benzodiazepine for anxiety? Swim knows they would help Swim greatly, but can't get any. They do help many people.

If Swiy is suicidal, they should talk to their therapist/psychiatrist/whoever about it, and ask about alternative treatments for anxiety/depression. Some doctors WILL do experimental and off-label treatment, but it's rare.

Also, has Swiy ever considered marijuana? This plant has been a godsend for Swim's anxiety and severe insomnia. It also makes life fun.

I know drugs are not a magic answer, but they do present options.

Personally, please don't kill yourself. There are people who've been where you are and understand. There are also options; don't throw those away.

If Swiy has any questions, Swim would be glad to help.

[Solinari]

The problem i see with using opiates in this way is tolerance, even starting at the lowest dose of a mild opiate, tolerance will eventually build and increasing dosages will be required and the question is, where does it end? There is a reason opiates are rarely or never used by the majority of doctors, tolerance and physical dependence with the possibility of severe addiction always there. It was the same with cocaine that was widely prescribed back in Freud's day, but it was stopped after overdoses and problems with serious mental and physical deterioration.

I am surprised to hear of someone getting buprenorphine as an anti depressant, that said if there was an opioid that would be best suited for this then i suppose it would be buprenorphine because of its partial agonist/antagonist action. There is even a subsection on the Wikipedia page, Antidepressant features so it appears there is science behind it which could help someone's case. The problem is that it appears that opioids are not approved for use with "psychological distress", but if a doctor is suggesting ECT then asking them to look in to buprenorphine doesn't seem unreasonable.

The only other one is tramadol since it has noradrenergic and serotonergic effects that i think are similar to antidepressants.

[hensley258]

Thanks for the replies.

I think I understand what your saying regarding the use of Opiates for SWIY's Depression.

"Fiveleggedrat" I understand your belief that Severe Depression is always situational or caused by some past life trama or poor life experience.

All I can say is, "Trust me when I tell you that I have, nor ever have had any outward reason to cause my condition."

SWIY has been evaluated over many years by top Psychiatrists, Neurologists and Therapists. SWIY's condition seems to be caused by an unknown abnormality in the way SWIY's brain functions. At least that is what the best of Psychiarty and Neurology is telling him.

SWIY has never suffered a tramatic experience or loss in his life and has a wonderful family, many friends and plenty of support systems in his life.

I can assure you that this is not caused by any past demons in SWIY's life. As it was very normal and well adjusted.

17 yeas ago something snaped in SWIY's brain and plunged him into a dark place that only medication has had any effect to control.

Getting back to the Vicotin. Prior to this experience SWIY has never taken an Opiate of any form. SWEY doesn't understand why it had such a profound ability to eliminate the severe symptoms of his depression and anxiety without making him feel weird or high. The experience was simply "normalcy."

Regarding Benzodiaziphines like Xanax. SWIY's Psychiatrist already prescribes them to him along with his maintenence Antidepressant medication. They help with the Anxiety and doom and gloom, but as you know are short lived and don't offer true lasting relief.

So let me get this right. You say that, yes SWIY can eliminate his Cronic Severe Depression with an Opiate, but he will build resistance ultra fast and then need more to get that normal feeling?

SWIY doesn't want them to get high. Just enough to eliminate the beast that is his severe Depression.

SWIM says there is no way to balance it? No way for it to be utilized as an effective Antidepressant?

It would seem that Opiates have something in them that has the ability to give SWIY normalcy and proper fuctioning. A gift of normalcy that most people take for granted.

SWIY could care less if he get's addicted because every night he has a loaded gun in his mouth. Humm, death or risk addiction..... SWIY really wants to live more than anything in the world. Unfortunatly his Cronic mental depression is all consuming and all but renders him completly non-functional.

SWIY views medications as a double edge sword. He understands the risks involved.
SWIY has already built up huge resistance over many years to most forms of Antidepressant therapy. To the point where more doesn't even work.

Is SWIY not already a drug addict from antidepressants? If SWIY tries to stop taking them he gets very bad medication withdrawl. What makes Opiates any different?

Resistance can be built with antidepressants just as with Opiates. You take anything long enough and you will build a resistance to it's theraputic effect.

SWIY must take 4 different very powerful Psycotropic medications just to get any relief from his severe depression. None works as well as just a tiny bit of Opiate does for him.

SWIY's condition is now deteriorating at an alarming rate. he may have to utilize the powerful effects of an Opiate simply to survive. SWIY has a beutiful Wife and young daughter that need him alive, not 6 feet under. SWIY must see her grow into a woman so he doesn't pass on this depressive condition to her.

SWIY feels like he has found a viable treatment to crack his Severe Depression, yet it is an Opiate which is a bad word where we come from.

SWIY knows ways to obtain such Opiates thru the internet. he may have to do this, as SWIY's Psychiatrist has already written him off as completly untreatable.

He knows SWIY will soon take his life. SWIY has already informed him.

[fiveleggedrat]

I understand the issue might not be life related, but chemistry related.

The main issue with opioids is yes, tolerance and issues with addiction. However, if Swiy can use every few days, as opposed to every single day, it would be more manageable to keep for the intended purpose.

However, IMO any course of action is better than suicide. Give it a shot; better than nothing.

Swim can honestly suggest the plant kratom; if legal in Swiy's area, it is an affordable alternative to prescription opioids, and is easily obtainible with little effort. It also provides less chance for addiction and tolerance than more traditional opiods due to increased delta receptor stimulation.

Check out kratom. It might be effective.

[stupidorange]

My situation is much the same as yours, hensley. SSRIs work on me, but dimly. If 0 is normal and I'm a -10, SSRIs bring me up to maybe -6... better, but still feeling like shit!

I have a host of problems. Asperger's, OCD, social and generalized anxiety, a desperate fear of sobriety, and clinical depression. A few months back, I read about dopamine's role in the brain. The book explained how OCD is an anxiety disorder, and both anxiety and depression are thought to be related to a lack of dopamine.

You know what else is also related? Asperger's and compulsive/addictive behavior (like my drug use)!

I'm on Klonopins as well as an SSRI. I've tried nearly every drug on the planet, and the only ones that make me feel "normal" - make me into a functioning, talking, enthusiastic human being - are opioids. Like hensley, the first time I took a single small dose of pain medication... I swear I heard a choir of angels somewhere far overhead.

I think opioids can be excellent tools for mental as well as physical pain, but there are dangers. Hensley, I contacted you on medhelper as well... I'd like to share some thoughts on our life outlook, if you'd be willing to.

stupidorange added 2 Minutes and 43 Seconds later...

Edit: One more thing to add: I am not sure about this one, but I've always had digestive problems... and opioids are exactly what cures them. There are tons of opioid receptors in the digestive system, too... perhaps related?

[hensley258]

Thanks so much for the info fiveleggedrat. Swiy really found it intersting as he has never heard of kratom before.

Swiy wants to know if Kartom will produce any bad anxiety related issues as he also sufferes with anxiety dissorder. He doesn't want to get some dirty rat buzz from it that will only harm his condition.

What does Swim think about that?

PS. Stupidoragne, I sent you a private message regarding your reply to Swiy.

[Matt The Funk]

It works for SWIY because opiods make you feel good. SWIM takes opiods/benzos for the same reason. Horrible anxiety/panic disorder and BPD. Kratom would be something SWIM would try, definitely before suicide, might as well try all there is to try. SWIM definitely suggest cannabis, as he has found that to be his magical cure, for the most part. SWIM has also tried plenty of SSRI's (no MAOIs) and a few mood stabilizer, and anti-psychotics. Even though he finds the psychiatry field a joke, SWIM suggest that maybe SWIY could try a mix of an SSRI/SNRI + mood stabilizer. SWIY might always want to throw a benzo in there (they have brought SWIM his greatest and worse moments, but if you're truly suffering they can be a god-send) if SWIY won't abuse them.

Although SWIM would love to get prescribed opiates (they make all his problems disappear, just like everyone else, and not in that "fuck it all" opiate way either) he doesn't see them as being possible right now because of drug laws. It's very unfortunate. So SWIY should probably continue to try COMBO's of things, it might work better than 1 medication alone.

[Herbal Healer 019]

Kratom will not produce any bad anxiety issues. If anything, kratom will illeviate any anxiety. It has an effect basicly identical to that of an opiate. It acts on opiate recepters in the brain (mu & delta opioid receptors). SWIM would say it's effects are most simular to poppy pods (morphine & codeine) in intensity & euphoria or possibly hydrocodone (vicodin) & oxcodone (percocet & oxycontin).

SWIM can say first hand that kratom along with other opiates when used in moderation and responsibly will work for mild depression. The problem is with opiates & opiate like drugs is that because they make u feel so good SWIY may start to feel like life is only worth living while under the influence of the opiate/ opiate like drug. This is why these drugs are so addictive & keep this in mind. But, yes, Kratom would probably be SWIyou's best bet as it is legal in most countries (US & Europe included), and as fiveleggedrat said it is less addictive than other opiates. Still SWIM doesn't think self medicating to alleivate SWIyou's severe depression/ suicidle tendancies is going to help long term, but if it's truely life & death as SWIyou says then it is certainly better than suicide. In My Opinion SWIyou should really try and get to the root of this depression SWIyou speaks of, with the help of others or alone, because only then will these symptoms of sadness,despair, & anxiety really disappear. Just remember that the drugs are only a temporary fix to the real problem & with opiates and the drugs alike releif will only b temporary, and is most likely only a path to addiction when a person with a depressive personality takes them 4 depression. Good luck

[hensley258]

Thanks Funk, Unfortunatly Swiy's Depressive dissorder is very severe and medication resistant. He is alreay taking Remeron (very powerful Tri-cyclic Antidepressant) Prozac (SSRI) and Lamicatal (Mood Stabilizer) once per day as his maintenence meds. Swiy also get 60 Xanax .50Mg tabs every month from his Psychiatrist. Yes they help with the anxiety, but are very short lived and unlike a mild opiate, make Swiy very sleepy.

After so many years of medication treatment Swiy has built up a very strong resistance to Most Psycotropic medications that treat severe depression. Even the more powerful Tetra and Tri-cyclics.

Even with this powerful combo he is only getting about 50% effectivness.

Afrade that MAOI's may be his last chance at getting any theraputic response. Hasen't tried MAOI yet simply because if you even eat the wrong food while taking MAOI it can be instant death.

The list of food and drug interactions with MAOI are huge. Drink a glass of wine or eat cheese with an MAOI and your dead meat. Even hidden ingrediants in food can cause death on MAOI.

Not that death would be a bad thing for Swiy, but he must stay alive for his familys sake only.

I hear they can be very effective, but at a huge risk. At least with an Opiate Swiy doesn't have to worry about instant death if taken in low dosage.

[fiveleggedrat]

Yes, kratom will be a good choice. It will provide the opioid stimulation Swiy seeks. Also, Swim suggests kratom before other opioids; kratom is weaker than them, and therefore, should be used first; if going from stronger opioids to kratom, Swiy might retain a tolerance making kratom less useful, and that would suck.

Also, Swiy could try tramadol out; it is a opioid which does have SSRI/SNRI activity, and it has been used for depression. The opioid stimulation is very clean and pleasant. Tramadol is also easily obtained, both legally and online, like kratom, only that tramadol is a prescription only product. Unlike other opioids, it is not scheduled by the DEA.

If Alprazolam (Xanax) makes Swiy sleepy, try other benzos out. Swim finds some with too many negatives and unpleasant, but others are much better and useful.

[hensley258]

Swiy has done a little research on Kartom. Problem with Kartom is dosage issues. Too little and no effect, too much and dirty rat buzz. Swiy hears that Kartom varys widly in dosage and is not appealing or exact enough for him.

Tramadol on the other hand would be great as it's dosages are very regulated like Vicotin. Problem: Tramadol is only avalible by doctors prescription only much like Vicodin.

Swiy sees no way to obtain Tramadol. Swiy has seen many online pharmacies that he may be able to purchase Tramadol from, but Swiy worries about getting busted for placing such an order online.

Not to mention Swiy knows that some of these online pharm companies are shady at best and may not provide quality Tramidol.

What does Swim think? Does Swim know of any reputaible online drug stores that he could refer swiy to? Link maybe?

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Thank you for sharing Swiy's story. Don't give up!
	I really think you should check out Lyrica...it's an interesting new med, good luck.

[fiveleggedrat]

As Swim said, tramadol can be easily obtained with little effort, and little risk of legal recourse. Swim does it all the time. Only if legal in your area Quality tramadol is not an issue, and tramadol is not risky to buy online. Not going to get dirty tramadol or anything, really.

Also, a doctor would likely prescribe, like I said, as an antidepressant.

Kratom is not garbage, or a dirty rat buzz, and dosage it not hard either. The only thing is there are different strengths, and Swiy will have to figure out dosage for their product once, and then Swiy is good. Trust me, if Swiy can't get tramadol, kratom is the next best option, for SURE.

Since Swiy is not a heroin addict or some other type of dope fiend, kratom will be plenty. Most people who do kratom have done much harder drugs before. Kratom to non tolerant people is good stuff. If Swiy does not want to eat raw plant, or make beverages/tea/food/swallow capsules of kratom, use an extract; not much to eat.

Most big websites that sell 15x extract are not an issue.

And PS, for Swim, kratom and tramadol were very similar.

We have good resources on kratom around here.

No links, source discussion is prohibited. Google is your friend.

[Matt The Funk]

Originally Posted by hensley258

Swiy has done a little research on Kartom. Problem with Kartom is dosage issues. Too little and no effect, too much and dirty rat buzz. Swiy hears that Kartom varys widly in dosage and is not appealing or exact enough for him.

Tramadol on the other hand would be great as it's dosages are very regulated like Vicotin. Problem: Tramadol is only avalible by doctors prescription only much like Vicodin.

Swiy sees no way to obtain Tramadol. Swiy has seen many online pharmacies that he may be able to purchase Tramadol from, but Swiy worries about getting busted for placing such an order online.

Not to mention Swiy knows that some of these online pharm companies are shady at best and may not provide quality Tramidol.

What does Swim think? Does Swim know of any reputaible online drug stores that he could refer swiy to? Link maybe?

SWIM suggests tramadol, it'd be worth talking about to a doc, if not SWIY should order online. If SWIY is treatment resistant SWIY might have to change other aspects of their life, but SWIM is going to assume they've already tried this. Has SWIY heard of a medication called Lyrica? (pregabalin) SWIM isn't exactly sure how it works but I think it's suppose to similar to GHB on the GABA receptors...might be something to look into for anxiety. SWIM tried it but quit after not feeling anything (only gave it 3 days, but SWIM didn't really want to take any more pills).

[hensley258]

Thanks for all the info guy's.

Swim has all been a huge help in helping Swiy better understand different options.

Funk...Thanks for the help. I can assure you that Swiy is a 17 year sufferer of very severe Refractory Depressive dissorder and anxiety dissorder. Swiy has already been hospitalized twice in the last 6 years due to his deteriorating condition.

Swiy has never had any issues with any form of addiction. In fact Swiy never really even experimented with drugs even in high school. Swiy doesn't even drink alcohol, but on rare occasion.

Swiy has no clue why, but as he said before; last week when he tried just a half tablet of Vicodin, it completly vaporized his unrelenting and cronic severe depression and anxiety for almost two days. Swey only took a very miniscule amount and didn't get even the least high or buzzed from it.

Swiy can't explain why this tiny bit of opiate had such a therputic effect on his symptoms. (Ahh... to feel normalcy he said) He understands that he will still need to take his antidepressant meds as they do offer him some level of sustained relief.

As for Swiy's lifestyle. Not much to change. He is a 38 year old devoted husband and father. He has a good paying stress free job. big new home in the burbs, two nice cars in the attached garrage, and a very loving supportive wife (who just happens to be smokin hot)

Guess what....None of it means shit to Swiy because he can't enjoy any of it due to his condition.

As for therapy....Swiy had a great childhood and adolesence. No past demons or trama. He spent many years in therapy, and while he learned a lot about his life and the people with whom he shares it with, it did nothing to help with his symptoms of severe treatment resistant Depression.

Swiy still sees his Psychiatrist doctor once a month for med adjustments. This is a cronic dissorder that in his case is neurologically based.

Swiy's Psychiatrist and neurologist want him to try ECT (Electro Convulsive Therapy) but Swiy is not too keen on having ECT because it can and often does severly effect memory both short and long term.

Effective for Severe Depression it can be, but the cost is high with ECT in terms of trama to the brain. It is used to induce a Grand Maul Sezure. It is the actual induced sezure part that for unknown reasons has a theraputic effect on people with treatment resistant Depression.

Problem is that it takes many sessions of ECT performed uni-laterally over a 6 week course to produce a theraputic response.

Much more frightining to Swiy than the risk of Opiate dependency.

Swiy understands the risks involved in utilizing even a mild Opiate for it's antidepressant effect, but Swiy's condition has now deteriorated to the point where he is seriously and imminently suicidal.

If a pill exists (such as Tramadol) that can offer Swiy even a few more years of life, then Swiy is now at that point because he has already tried most every other traditional form of therapy.

I'm sorry I can not fully explain the torment of what it feels like to suffer from a true severe mental illness. There simply are no words to really describe it's torment in it's worst manifestation.

The closest Swiy can come to explaining to a person how it feels to suffer from this disease at this level is this:

Close your eyes and imagine (if you can) in one day how your mind and body would feel of you were just informed that your spouse and children were killed in a car accident. Then imagine on that same day you lost your job and home. Now imagine how that would make your mind and body tremble with massive doom, horror, dread, and fear. Now imagine feeling that exact magnatude of emotion, BUT FOR NO LOGICAL REASON AT ALL. That my friends is the horrer of this kind of disease at this advanced level.

It can get so bad that the minds level of consentration is not even focused enough to read a childs book. It feels like 20 sand bags hanging from your head and sucking you to the ground as you walk. I mean it actually physically feels that way.

You can't think it away, you can't wish it away, you can't talk it away, and it simply will not stop EVER until you kill yourself.

Honest guy's it really feels that powerful and I don't expect you to understand. Hell, Swiy wouldn't understand it if he were not experincing it and fighting it for 17 years. Swiy doesn't even want to go on about the bizzar symptoms that make his life hell. Too many to list.

How swiy has survived this long? He has no clue. His psychiatrist has done his best to treat him and with some success. Swiy is greatful that his treatment did give him many years of life that he otherwise would have taken long ago.

I hope you guys read all that so you can better understand Swey's motive for trying to utilize an opiate.

Wrong it may be, but it beats the hell out of death and the trama it would cause Swiy's family. Swiy's family can deal with addiction, they can not deal with his suicide.

Swiy ows his 7 year old daughter the need for her father. His daughter would much rather have him longer even if it ment drug dependency.

Peace.

[Matt The Funk]

SWIM is in the same boat. He's trying to get clean now though, addiction just made things worse and completely fucked up his GABA receptors. He could barely leave his house for work over summer, and only left his room to get food, if he could eat. The depression for him is on and off but very powerful, he's been hospitalized before, also has psychotic delusions. In all honesty I hope SWIY can figure out how to make this work. I know it feels empty inside, and opiates can make it feel full, but the feeling won't last. SWIY should DEFINATELY look into tramadol though, depending on where you are located you might be able to find a more "liberal" doctor...or maybe a college doing some studies. It'd be worth it to see what new medications come out.

SWIY seems set on using opiates though, SWIM suggests you start with weaker opiates, in low doses, spaced out. At least that way it's manageable if it's a weaker opiate. Either way good luck to SWIY.

[fiveleggedrat]

Then simple, the potential benefits outweigh potential risks. Go for it.

And if that small amount of hydrocodone did so much, kratom and tramadol will do much as well, just as well as any other opioid.

As for depression, Swim spent many years in therapy, and it was the most useless thing ever. It was obvious they kept Swim coming back just for money, nothing was getting done. Swim also did not even drink alcohol until he was finishing highschool, and still waited longer on drugs.

Was Swiy ever told the cause or root of their depression, if not by situation? What was the chemical/physical explanation?

[dyingtomorrow]

My story is very similar ... I don't know what else to say but it sucks to be us, because there is no solution. I wrote it in my blog but I'll just CP it here:

SWIM's heroin story starts when he was a young child. SWIM has been moderately depressed ever since he become conscious, and severely depressed ever since adolesence. SWIM has tried all kinds of alternative and over the counter remedies, been to all kinds of doctors, and tried all kinds of RX meds for long periods of time. All of them just made SWIM feel sick, more depressed, or had some awful side effect worse than depression. To fill this hole in his life, SWIM started smoking marijuana in the 4th grade. Over time, SWIM ended up going all kinds of illegal drugs throughout his life, and ecstacy made him feel a little better for a while during college.

SWIM pulled through these problems, despite occasionally being debilitated for weeks at a time, and was a year into law school when he came across heroin. SWIM has also had serious insomnia which doctors also never were able to help him with. (SWIM always scored in the top 99th percentile on all standardized tests in school, and scored off the chart on the IQ test he took - so there's definitely something biologically weird about SWIM's brain). SWIM tried all kinds of illegal drug types from shrooms to crack, and never had a problem with any. SWIM was offered heroin to help him sleep after his first year in law school, and it worked. It also made him feel happy and brought out the best of him for the first time in his life. SWIM was at the top of his class, had a 100% secure job and job offer upon graduation with a huge international Fortune 100 company, and was happy with life for the first time since he was 14, thanks to being addicted to heroin for the past year. It made him happy, smarter, more perceptive, more sensitive, confident, and just loving life, when he otherwise spent the past 10 years trying to get over his fear enough to just kill himself and get this misery over with.

Everything was heaven. Everything was going perfectly - the life, job, productivity, and happiness every person longs for, all thanks to finding Heroin. Then SWIM's money ran out, and his life was completely destroyed. He's out of law school, $200,000 in debt, more depressed than ever, and just lucky to be good looking and have a girl to stay with.

If they sold heroin like they do beer, or prescribed it to people like SWIM, SWIM could accomplish anything. Instead SWIM is just totally 100% done with life at the age of 26. After knowing what it's like to love life and be happy, and going back into the uncurable gray that 10 years of doctors have been unable to treat - there really is nothing left for SWIM. SWIM is really happy to think about the end at this point. Heroin isn't any worse than alcohol. Heroin is only a problem because of it's cost, and it's only financially unfeasible for lower and middle class people because of a stupid racist old law from the 1920s. It's too bad that, even though humans have been cultivating and getting high off opiates for long over 6,000 years, all the sudden we're denied them, no matter how much they help you, or how happy and socially productive they make you.

Close your eyes and imagine (if you can) in one day how your mind and body would feel of you were just informed that your spouse and children were killed in a car accident. Then imagine on that same day you lost your job and home. Now imagine how that would make your mind and body tremble with massive doom, horror, dread, and fear. Now imagine feeling that exact magnatude of emotion, BUT FOR NO LOGICAL REASON AT ALL. That my friends is the horrer of this kind of disease at this advanced level.

I know this feeling well. Having a hole in your heart that just hurts so bad all the time, that you can physically feel. Getting migraines from it that force you to lay in a dark cold basement for 2 weeks straight. Honestly the only thing worse than that, is finding something that suddenly makes you love life and (you assume) feel like everyone else does who finds the good in life worth going to a job and shit like that and not just always wanting to kill themselves - and then having it ripped away from you (with some of the most excruciating physical pain a human can feel) and forever denied. But I've learned that there is no such thing as a limit to pain, you can always feel more. The hole can always be bigger.

[hensley258]

Compelling story for sure Swim. Swiy dosen't even want to think about trying Heroin. Simply because he knows that it would instantly correct (if only temporary) his severe depression.

You know something odd that I have noticed over the years about people that suffer severe depression? most of them, for some unknown reason have a much higher than average IQ.

Some of the most brilliant people Swiy has talked with online are those that seem to have a very high intellect.

Perhaps it is because of this higher than average IQ that we somehow think too much in terms of our emotonal state of mind that dooms us.

Think about it....When is the last time you spoke with a dumb ass that suffers from clinical depression?

hensley258 added 43 Minutes and 45 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by betsym

Opiates release endorphins, which will improve mood and help pain, so they work on a physical and mental level. Chronic depression probably leaves swiy pretty endorphin-depleted. Stimulants have been known to help depression and that dragged-out, lethargic feeling that often accompanies it. Swim is not sure if swiy's doctors would consider it but swim's doctor said that her ADHD medication would help both her ADHD and depression. Swim is on opiates for degenerative disc disease, as well, but she keeps a careful eye on the dosage.


Depression causes mental and physical pain and physical pain has been known to cause depression. Has swiy been checked for any underlying physical conditions that may be causing the chronic depression? Tolerance can be built up to antidepressants, like with any other drug, so then they quit working as well. Swiy definitely needs to get whatever will make him/her feel better IMMEDIATELY, especially if the suicidal thoughts have esculated to the point of such unbearable intensity to put swiy at risk of becoming his/her own murder victim! Swim would tell the psychiatrist that swiy found out accidentally that an opiate would help swiy's depression, temporarily. Tell the doctor that a friend or relative gave swiy an opiate medication for a severe headache, stomachache, whatever and that swiy discovered that that it not only helped the pain but his depression, as well. The antidepressant Cymbalta is supposed to treat physical pain, as well as mental, so the medical and neurological doctors are aware that depression is often accompanied by physical pain.


For now, swim thinks swiy should not give a care about legal/illegal substances when swiy feels like things are about to go out of control. Do what swiy can, for THIS moment, and then get to a hospital emergency room BEFORE swiy feels any worse. Swim has had depression before that felt like she would explode any second if she didn't do something, ANYTHING, but swim could at least pinpoint the cause of her depression at any given time. Swiy is right to feel frustrated because the depression swiy is suffering from can kill swiy and an opiate, which helped swiy feel better temporarily, can also eventually cause depression itself and therefore double what depression swiy already has. Kratom, as someone mentioned, is a definite legal option and swiy should stock up on some while it can still be gotten. There are also other supplements that swiy can get that are legal and opiate-alternatives, which will help the brain build up it's own depleted endorphins.



It is harder to help depression which is non-situational and doesn't seem to have any external causes. A brain scan (SPECT scan)could show the affected lobes of swiy's brain but scans are a major expense which may or not be covered by insurance. The doctor would then prescribe medication based on which lobe or lobes are affected because antidepressants, ADHD meds, and other medications can actually make some depression worse if they don't match the affected area. Maybe thinking of swiy's daughter will help him/her to resist the temptation to kill swiyself until swiy can get something to help because swiy's form of depression may be hereditary. Swiy could keep his/her little girl from suffering the same way they did. Swim has a 20 year old daughter who suffers from depression and has since childhood. Swim's daughter is now on methamphetamines and has done all kinds of drugs because she feels her life is boring, painful, and purposeless withou SOMETHING to help her feel "normal." Antidepressants made her feel worse. Antidepressants also made swim feel suicidal so those warnings on the label that some antidepressants may worsen depression and cause increased suicidal feelings is no joke! Stay on the forum here for the rest of the weekend, if need be, and let the swimmers help any way possible. In the least, swiy could find out something to help that he may not have known about. That's what it's all about.

Thanks swim. Your wisdom is evident. Swiy really wishes his depression was situational or had a defined root cause. Unfortunatly that's simply not the case.

While Swiy's Psychiatrist and Neurologist have already determined that Swiy does seem to have an abnormality in his brain that causes his Cronic depression, they have not been able to do much to correct it.

As for Antidepressant meds....You hit the nail on the head Swim. Swiy doesn't give a shit what anyone thinks because he is living proof that long term usage of antidepressant medications can cause resistance to them.

Swiy must make med changes now every 18 to 24 months just to trick his system into a theraputic response. Was not always the case many years ago.

You name an antidepressant or mood stabilizer medication and Swiy has burned it out. Sezone, Zoloft, Prozac, Eskalith, Effexor, Cymbalta, Paxil, Lexapro, Nortriptilyne, Remeron, Lamictal.....Swiy could go on and on.

Still have yet to hit the MAOI's like Parnate. That shit is powerful and can be deadly, so Swiy is reluctant to move to the MAOI's. Not that I'm really worried about my death. Swiy just knows the transition to an MAOI is going to be 8 weeks of absolute Hell. (one must first wash out the current meds for weeks prior to starting an MAOI) That means med free for a couple weeks and swiy can tell you that the beast is VERY strong when not partally caged by AD meds.

Swiy would have to take a couple week off work to make that transition. Even then it's a roll of the dice to see if an MAOI would even help.

I suppose swiy is looking for some justification from swims to try Tramadol, but I know what you all mean. In the end Tramadol could leave me in even worse condition. Even if swiy was able to use it sparingly, it would probably catch up with him in time.

Only Swiy can make that choice. All Swiy knows is that he is in pain and he knows an opiate based drug like Tramadol would without a doubt work.

Maybe Tramadol could keep his head above water until another solution could be found.

There is a new type of Antidepressant now in stage 3 approval process by the FDA called Valdoxan. It is the worlds first Melotenergic Antidepressant. Thus far studies have proved it to be much more effective than any other AD med on the market today.

Swiy just doesn't know if he can make it that long. Could be another year before Valdoxan approval.

Swiy just thinks perhaps Tramadol may be able to keep him alive long enough (if used wisly) to make it to Valdoxan.

[fiveleggedrat]

IMHO, antidepressants won't be the answer, anytime soon. They are all the same, useless thing.

As for depression in more intelligent people, that's an interesting thing to note.

Swim's top 1% of SAT, ACT, ASVAB, etc, and 120-130 on IQ, as an elementary school child, resulting in Swim being placed in the gifted program. Swim also has dealt with social phobias, severe anxiety, and chronic depression his whole life too.

Long term use of ANYthing builds a tolerance, including antidepressants. That's why if they are working at first, they won't be forever.

Also IMHO, MAOI's are not the answer either.

Self medication with opioids sounds like a better option, honestly. If it works, so be it. People have used opioids for depression without problems sucessfully in the past. That's not saying tons of people have probably tried and failed, with a good amount getting addicted somewhere along the way.

Swim self medicates for anxiety, insomnia, and all the other issues he has with benzos, marijuana, opioids, and a few other things, and it usually works out pretty decently.

I think Swiy is looking at this the wrong way; Swiy does not want to just get onto a medication and take it all day, every day of the week, but take something as needed. Taking something every day makes one tolerant, and makes the drug useless eventually. Could Swiy not medicate as needed a few times weekly, max? If Swiy could, kratom or tramadol would be a very good choice.

I don't know if Swiy considered it, but there are other ways to "maintain". Marijuana is one of them, and it is certainly the least negatives for any drug.

[Solinari]

Hensley you have your SWIM's and SWIY's back to front, sorry to mention it but it's hard enough to read these posts.

I might add that there is nothing incriminating about depression or anxiety and the medications prescribed by a doctor.

[hensley258]

Originally Posted by Solinari

Hensley you have your SWIM's and SWIY's back to front, sorry to mention it but it's hard enough to read these posts.

I might add that there is nothing incriminating about depression or anxiety and the medications prescribed by a doctor.

True Swim, but Swiy may have much difficulty convincing his Psychiatrist to trust him regarding Tramadol for his Severe medication resistant depression.

Swiy will ask him and provide him with the data regarding it's efficacy, but Swiy thinks he may have to order online without a prescription. His P-doc is not brave enough to think outside the box. Although he is more than happy to stick electrodes on my head and shock the shit out of my brain. Which almost always results in a worse fate than risk of addiction.

Swiy may have to do some doctor shopping to find one that understands this is life and death for him.

Swiy spent another day finding dozens of people with his exact condition, all of which are finding normalcy again with Tramadol when used wisely.

People that are severe and have tried everything Psychiarty has to offer are living again due to this drug. It's effectiveness is no doubt VERY favorible.

Regards.

[Solinari]

When you say SWIY it should be SWIM, SWIY is Someone Who Isn't YOU and SWIM is Some Who Isn't ME. I am not trying to have a dig at anyone here but a lot of people have got in to the habit of using SWIM all the time regardless of the possible criminality of what they are discussing. Frankly i can find very little that is incriminating in this thread and your last post has nothing incriminating in it at all, it's just something to think about.

Anyway, i don't think tramadol is that far out the box since it does have similar properties to many SSRI drugs and if he is talking about the ancient practise (widely regarded as such) of ECT i can't see what the problem is. That said, there is a guy that had Bi-Polar and underwent ECT which appeanrtly transformed his life. I am not too sure about linking to the site (i imagine he is selling a book) and i am not suggesting it's for you, it's just an example of it happening so if you want to check it out Google "electroboy" and it won't be hard to find.

Frankly i can't see any reason why you should not discuss this with your doctor, there is nothing to lose. If you don't think you have a medical leg to stand on then try and find peer reviewed evidence that can help i am sure it is out there. I would also add, the term 'doctor shopping' actually means getting as much meds from as many different doctors as possible and not finding a different one, i thought i'd mention that because of what it implies, i am sure you simply misunderstood or were unaware of its meaning.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Thanks for imforming him, although it wasn't exactly BAD, it was bothering me (pet peeve)

[hensley258]

Thanks Solinari.

I was just confused a little on the Swim - Swiy thing.

I was just being overly cautious because I was not sure if the moderators would frown on me talking about this alternative treatment for myself in a first person context.

You say it's ok to discuss as me being the person involved, then that's easier for me to write.

I am happy to know there is nothing illigal about this topic.

As for ECT. Obviously oppinions vary and results vary. I actually have spent the last year doing exhaustive research on ECT as a viable option for me.

I have talked to hundreds with my severe condition that have already gone thru many essions of Uni-lateral ECT.

In the end I could only find about 10% that regarded it as benifitial for them. I also found out that Psychiatrist that administer ECT get huge money for performing the procedure, which makes me suspect.

My Psychiatrist happens to perform ECT at the hospital he is accosiated with. He swears to me that it can help me. He want's me to try it.

Unfortunatly I just can not find enough people that have had favorible results with ECT for me to consider it for myself.

I view it as a last option even after Tramadol. Not to mention that I have to keep working. The option to not work is loss of my home and survival for my wife and child. It is against all odds that I have even found the ability to continue work, given how bad my condition is. Most people with my level of condition survive on $800 a month from dissability benifits because they can not function enough to work.

I honestly can not fuction enough to work, but I somehow manage to push on even though I am living in an alterd word of fear and deep depression. I do it for my daughter only because she is the only thing keeping me alive at this point.

For most it is hard to imagine a mental depression so powerful that it can literally make you completly non-functional. I fully understand why they don't understand. I never could have imagined this type of mental torment 17 years ago prior to becoming sick with it.

BTW, thanks for posting back. It's nice to talk to people that don't judge others. Not to mention that I have found all of you to be highly intelligent.

I honestly did not expect this to be the case with such a forum.

Regards.