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GHB GHB, GBL and related psychoactive substances

 
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  #1  
Old 06-11-2008, 04:24
laskerja laskerja is offline
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Safe way to use GHB?

So swim is a former heroin/oxycontin junkie who has been clean for over three years from opiods. For 2 of those years swim was completely clean, for the past year swim have been drinking but is super conscious of how much and have maybe drank 10 times at most the past year. Swim is very into bodybuilding now and that gives him a reason to not drink much. Swim tried GHB for the first time and really liked it. He knows he does have a very addictive personality. Swim researched GHB and has seen that people can die fairly easily on it or it is very easy to get addicted to and very hard to come off. Swim wonders if there is a responsible way to use it. Swim buddy said he would only give swim 2 caps a week to prevent him from taking it more frequently. What are peoples experiences with GHB? Fairly easy to moderate? Is there a responsible way to use GHB, or should swim not even get started?


thanks much and sorry for the lengthy post but swim wanted to give info so people understand who they are dealing with.
  #2  
Old 06-11-2008, 05:35
runitsthepolice runitsthepolice is offline
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Re: Safe way to use GHB?

Don't go 24/7 like swim did. Keep it to 9g a day tops or 6 mils for gbl. Seems fairly safe if used responsibly, thats what swim said. It's great stuff. Swim now only uses on weekends, following these rules and is fine. G is not a compulsive substance.
  #3  
Old 06-11-2008, 09:17
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Re: Safe way to use GHB?

in the beginnen GHB is easy to handle.. but if SWIY has unlimited acces to it SWIY wil probably play with it to much.

only use it once a week or so, then SWIY wil be fine
  #4  
Old 06-11-2008, 13:21
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Re: Safe way to use GHB?

Laskerja, please read the Stickied threads in the GHB forum, particularly this one.

You will find that there is a whole lot of bs and misinformation concerning GHB and its use. As far as addiction is concerned one actually has to start using it 24/7 on purpose over an extended period of time (which is currently unknown) in order to start getting anywhere near withdrawal or dependence issues.

If wanting to use GHB in order to lead a "healthier" lifestyle, one would probably be best to simply view it as a sleep aid that can be used seven days (nights actually!) a week, if desired, with *no* withdrawal issues. Research has already proven this.

Contrary to many BB myths, GHB should *not* be taken as an aid to working out. The amount that could be taken whilst not being too intoxicated to safely lift weights would have no bearing on HGH release, it would simply make one sweat like a bastard from the mild stimulatory effects that small a dose actually gives.

BB's who want to maximise the proven benefit of GHB's Growth Hormone release, would do better to use it the same way it is prescribed for Narcoleptics who suffer from daytime cataplexy and have been prescrived Xyrem. one 4.5g dose taken at bedtime and, after waking four hours later, a second dose of 4.5g to complete the 8 hour sleep cycle.

Last edited by MrG; 18-11-2008 at 14:01.
  #5  
Old 06-11-2008, 15:32
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Re: Safe way to use GHB?

wow thank you everyone for the response. SWIM did see a thread MrG about how it is prescribed daily for narcoleptic's and that their use is daily. SWIM figure to error on the side of caution however as SWIM have been through the hell know as addiction(heroin) and have no plan on returning anytime soon. SWIM figure to limit himself to once a week just to be safe. There would be no long term effects of SWIM taking it once a week for a long time would there?

SWIM does bodybuild but am not necessarily taking it for extra HGH release. It is more or less going to be an alternative to alcohol, and a way to unwind once a week.


Thanks for the responses guys!
  #6  
Old 06-11-2008, 18:01
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Re: Safe way to use GHB?

Just to make it clear 24/7 use for even a few days can get you physically addicted. Swim has personal experience with this. Anyone using 24/7 for a week or more should get off with the help of a doc. Swim managed to on his own but couldn't do shit for a few days. Still gotta write that experience report
  #7  
Old 08-11-2008, 08:15
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Re: Safe way to use GHB?

Please do write that experience report of SWIY's, full blown addiction after only a few days of 24/7 is almost unheard of. I would be very interested to hear how it came about and what may have contributed to such a short period of use before withdrawal problems arose.
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Old 08-11-2008, 21:56
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Re: Safe way to use GHB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrG View Post
Please do write that experience report of SWIY's, full blown addiction after only a few days of 24/7 is almost unheard of. I would be very interested to hear how it came about and what may have contributed to such a short period of use before withdrawal problems arose.

now when one speaks of 24/7 this is taking GHB from first thing in the morning all the way until night, correct?

if someone takes multiple doses from early evening until bed every day(and not just once a night) will they not experience the same withdraw symptoms as someone taking it 24/7?

Thanks much
  #9  
Old 11-11-2008, 08:51
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Re: Safe way to use GHB?

24/7 dosing refers to the constant dosing (every couple of hours) during the day with, usually, an attempted sleep at night with higher doses. This is *not* good!

As for people who use G more like recreational alcohol by using only in the evenings well, TBH, they are not likely to experience any withdrawal issues because they will not be addicted in the first place.

Maintaining a dosing regimen of GHB or, particularly, GBL whereby the user does not allow the brain chemistry to return to "normal" levels for a period of time is going to result in withdrawal issues that, the longer this is maintained, will become more severe. Interestingly enough, we have yet to establish where the cut off point is. Would somebody become an addict by dosing 24/2 or 12/7, we don't know where that line is yet but, more importantly, we *do* know how to keep well away from it quite easily by not allowing a continual dosing pattern to become established in the first place.

It has been said before, GHB is *not* a compulsive substance, however, desperately re-dosing because SWIY has an anxiety problem *is*.

The envelope is a hell of a lot smaller for GBL than it is for GHB though.

I have yet to read of a case of GHB withdrawal which has even come close to the distress caused by GBL withdrawal.

FYI, it would be an idea to read up on this thread in relation to possible sleep issues. Ironic, really, given that it is prescribed at 2x4.5g per night, *every* night in order to dramatically improve sleep for Cataplexy sufferers, that many recreational users wind up making their sleep cycle worse because of their preference for dosing throughout the evening.
  #10  
Old 11-11-2008, 09:06
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Re: Safe way to use GHB?

swim has heard of some decent people dying from this but they smell of leah betts syndrome. fair assessment?
  #11  
Old 11-11-2008, 09:32
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Re: Safe way to use GHB?

People have, apparently, died as a result of:

1) Intentionally ingesting a very large amount in order to commit suicide (plausible but would require ingesting large amount without being sick)
2) Accidently drinking a very large amount of neat G believing it to be water (not likely given the extreme salinity and likely immediate nausea)
3) Had their soft drink spiked whilst sober (death not likely as the LD50 for GHB is extremely high) and nobody is going to keep drinking something that tastes saltier than sea water.
4) Had their soft/alcoholic drink spiked whilst drunk (death certainly possible given enough alcohol and GHB, due to the resultant extreme CNS depression and/or inhalation of vomit whilst unconscious resulting in suffocation)
5) Intentionally taking GHB whilst very drunk (as above)
6) Combining GHB with any other drug that depresses the CNS in a similar fashion, thus increasing the CNS suppressive effects to dangerous levels (as above)
7) General GHB intoxication whilst doing anything that is regarded as potentially dangerous to do whilst intoxicated.

As for when Sodium Oxybate, Xyrem, Gamma-Hydroxybutyrate, GHB, is taken within the properly established safe dosing guidelines, there are *no* reported deaths as a result of a healthy individual having ingested it.

In fact, this report, makes for fascinating reading in respect to GHB and GBL toxicology findings.
  #12  
Old 11-11-2008, 21:38
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Re: Safe way to use GHB?

thanks that was very informative. swim wonders why people spend their lives spreading misinformation about drugs to get them banned when they could be doing something more constructive, like digging holes and filling them in again. GHB seems like an interesting substance.
  #13  
Old 12-11-2008, 08:49
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Re: Safe way to use GHB?

It's the powers-that-be who, labouring under the impression that they are doing good, believe you need only scare the bejesus out of people and they will be put off trying drugs for ever.

Where SWIM lives they still have the same, archaic, approach to drugs - they're all bad and they'll kill you or destroy your life, so don't take them.

So the local kids grow up hearing that marijuana will make them crazy, or kill them, or both. Then they hear that heroin will make them crazy, or kill them, or both.

Then, after they actually do get to try some marijuana, it doesn't make them crazy, or kill them, in fact quite the opposite. They get intoxicated, have a giggle and go about their day. Pretty much like all teens around the world.

But because they are told that marijuana is just as bad as heroin and they have just found out that marijuana isn't, in fact, this demonic drug that will be their ruin, they then figure that heroin should be next on their list of "must-try's".

Then heroin becomes their ruin.

But hey, it's ok to drink your drug though! Because if you want cheap booze and coffee by the tankerful, you need look no further! Fuck it, if you want to go out hunting with a shotgun in the countryside, there is even a special alcoholic beverage that is marketed just for you! You know, just to keep you nice and warm inside whilst you go out and about waving a firearm around.

Drugs *are* bad, m'kay? Just take our word for it. After all, we are politicians! We've lived that rock'n'roll lifestyle, we've been there! We've been told what it is *all* about, so you can simply ignore those pesky drugs because they are all bad and you'll be much better of with a nice pint of lager and fistful of smokes.

Joking aside, look at what they've tried to do with GHB. By constantly labelling it as:
1) A date rape drug
2) A drug that is made from paint stripper and drain unblocker
3) A drug that is *so* hard to dose that it'll likely kill you
4) A drug that is *so* addictive the withdrawal will likely kill you
5) A drug that is *so* dangerous that it is schedule I in the US, meaning it is highly addictive and has no medical use

With the actual facts being:
1) Whilst is may have been used to facilitate sexual assault, the very same reason it was discontinued as an anaesthetic (increased risk of myclonic seizures and vomiting at doses high enough to induce an unrousable state for surgery or, for that matter, nefarious purposes) is the reason why it has made headlines. It resulted in people dying. Not much good as a date-rape drug then.

2) This one is my favourite. Gamma-Butyrolactone (GBL) and Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH). Those are the two substances that, having reacted together correctly, create NaGHB (the sodium salt of GHB), entirely non-corrosive and only slightly alkaline. They play on Joe Public's ignorance and laziness when this line is trotted out. Try asking for sodium chloride and acetic acid on your fish and chips. I'm not saying that GBL and NaOH don't need to be handled carefully though, I'm simply saying that the repeated use of labelling the substances as Paint Stripper and Drain Unblocker leads the curious to actually ask "why the hell are people taking it if it is so bad?" So they then begin researching it themselves and find, once again, they are being lied to by the-powers-that-be.

3) By refusing to actually educate people as to how best reduce the potential risks from taking drugs, they allow those who cannot find the information they need to, unwittingly, take risks that could easily be avoided through the user understanding more about whatever substance they are taking or thinking of taking. "Incredibly high dose-response curve!", "users don't know the strength of their illicit GHB" - of course they don't, you won't let them buy it pre-made at an established dose with proper instruction on how to use it and what the actual risks and possible harms are. But they could walk into a liquor store and by a whopping great bottle of vodka or whisky that, if it were to be drunk in one shot, would likely kill them. In the meantime we get those cool Smirnoff adverts to watch on tv right?

4) GHB is *not* compulsive. I will say that again for good measure. GHB is *not* compulsive. One actually has to intentionally begin dosing 24/7 in order for withdrawal complications to arise. The threshold for GBL, however, is smaller and, as a result of GHB being banned whilst GBL, in the UK anyway, remains currently unscheduled due to its widespread use in industry, people have opted to use GBL rather than risk doing something illegal by converting it to NaGHB. Another example of prohibition doing more harm than good. Withdrawal from chronic GHB or, particularly, GBL abuse *can* be problematic in extreme cases but it is also simple to argue that addiction shouldn't be allowed to set in, in the first place. I will concede, however, that this can be a problem for those who are using G for its anxiolytic effects. When they stop using it, the anxiety usually comes back.

5) A drug that is *so* dangerous that it is, uniquely, the only pharmacological compound that is also Schedule III in the US. If you call it by it's brand name, Xyrem, it is classed as Schedule III as a drug which *has* accepted medical use and is markedly less harmful than drugs on schedules I or II. If you call it by any other name, however, it is Schedule I.

Marvellous.

Glad we could make that message crystal clear.

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  #14  
Old 13-11-2008, 02:40
laskerja laskerja is offline
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Re: Safe way to use GHB?

wow, great post MrG. I will say that SWIM has been doing G for the past 10 days or so. While SWIM has not felt the need to dose throughout the day, SWIM has been dosing almost every night(once a night). The Sleep and relaxation effects are great. SWIM hopes that no problems arise, and is wondering if how often SWIY doses, and what the effects from that protocol have been.

THanks
  #15  
Old 13-11-2008, 09:36
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Re: Safe way to use GHB?

the effects won't last.. SWIM would not recommend dosing each day... let your brain rest for a bit :P
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Old 15-11-2008, 22:48
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Re: Safe way to use GHB?

So SWIM now found out that what hes been taking is GBL and not GHB. MrG would GBL cause adverse effects from once daily dosing? Also what is the main differences between GHB and GBL?

laskerja added 4 Minutes and 6 Seconds later...

also would it be possible to turn GBL into GHB fairly easily?

laskerja added 0 Minutes and 12 Seconds later...

also would it be possible to turn GBL into GHB fairly easily?

Last edited by laskerja; 15-11-2008 at 22:48. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 18-11-2008, 12:51
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Re: Safe way to use GHB?

laskerja: UTFSE! Or click on this link.

Thanks to the info provided by MrG swim acquired some GBL and despite having all the ingredients required for GHB synthesis already just for household use, swim decided to try the GBL on it's own to stay within the law after reading the effects aren't much different.

swim just put 3ml of GBL into 500ml of water as recommended here and within only 7 minutes (!) of swallowing half the glass as recommended has noticed significant thought impairment making posting this reply challenging. the taste is not too bad, a little like slightly soapy water and much more paletable than neat vodka which it also has a remote resemblance in taste too (although much weaker).

By the time swim wrote that last paragraph there is visual disturbance similar to that brought on by 12 units of alcohol, no hallucinations or anything just a bit like watching a slightly jerky video. There is mood improvement, a very small touch of nausea (very small) and the winter cold/flu swim has can no longer be noticed.

SWIM can't believe it come on so fast! Wow. Anyhow, thanks for giving SWIM the confidence to try this substance with your education. SWIM says so far this seems quite safe and similar to a medium to heavy dose of ethanol in terms of sensory effects and mild stimulation without making one as "stupid". There is also a mild euphoria and a tiny touch of empathogenic like activity which SWIM expects is how it got the liquid ecstacy label.

SWIM will let other swimmers know how it went once the ride has stopped. SWIM can report the "drain cleaner" is quite enjoyable but is glad they started with 1.5ml and not more due to the sensory disturbances being a little nauseating (very similar to heavy alcohol dose disturbance). SWIM would suggest others start with 1ml of GBL in 250ml of water, not 1.5ml of GBL even if they are tolerant to other substances or of a large build.

15 minutes later: This is 15 minutes since finishing posting. swim felt a bit unwell and tried to eat some pasta. swim then had 5 minutes later liquid diarrhea and vomited. it's about 50 minute since first injesting the 1.5ml of GBL as a first time attempt. swim tells me the vomiting made them feel significantly better instantly but the nausea is slowly creeping back. as swim said earlier swim does have a cold/flu so that could be a factor though swim read nausea for a first time GBL/GHB user is common. SWIM will give another update later.

20 minutes later: the effects are almost completely gone. swim feels a little more relaxed and like sleeping would be enjoyable (swim didn't sleep much last night and is also crashing from the small amount of ephedrine he took to clear sinuses hours ago). the whole thing came and went in just 1 hour 10 minutes from swallowing the GBL in water. swim doesn't feel like redosing incase the nausea comes back but is quite keen to have another go after a nap to see if the nausea decreases on repeat attempts as others have claimed. swim can only say don't be scared of the drain cleaner label, remember water is a potent industrial solvent (scary!!!) but also remember this isn't vodka drinking shots of it would be very dumb. try 1ml of GBL or 1.5g of GHB to start with.

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Last edited by discodave; 18-11-2008 at 13:37. Reason: update
  #18  
Old 18-11-2008, 13:47
MrG MrG is offline
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Re: Safe way to use GHB?

Dave, the drain cleaner label referred to the Sodium Hydroxide used in the conversion to NaGHB. An NaOH solution is often used as an effective means to clear grease blocked drains.

gamma-Butyrolactone (γ-butyrolactone or GBL) is a hygroscopic colorless oily liquid with a weak characteristic odor and is soluble in water. GBL is a common solvent and reagent in chemistry and is used as an aroma compound, as a stain remover, as a superglue remover, as a paint stripper, and as a solvent in some wet aluminium electrolytic

gamma-Hydroxybutyric acid, 4-hydroxybutanoic acid, or GHB is a naturally-occurring substance found in the central nervous system, wine, beef, small citrus fruits, and almost all animals in small amounts.

Do you see the difference?

I will say, yet again, just because GBL converts in-vivo to GHB it does *not* mean it is just as safe as GHB.

GBL is rapidly converted into GHB by lactonase enzymes found in the blood. GBL is more lipophilic (fat soluble) than GHB, and so is absorbed faster and has higher bioavailability; the paradox is that this can mean that GBL has a faster onset of effects than GHB itself, even though it is a prodrug. The levels of lactonase enzyme can vary between individuals, and GBL is not active in its own right, so people who have never tried GBL before may have delayed or fewer effects than expected; however, once someone has taken GBL a few times, the production of lactonase enzymes is increased and he/she will feel the effects like normal.

So the above explains how it all works, but it does not state that it is perfectly safe to consume recreationally.

Do not forget that GBL is a mucous membrane irritant. It can and will make people vomit, something that *can* and *will* be dangerous if they are getting very intoxicated.

As for regular use, there are numerous reports of physical problems (myclonic spasms, RLS, metabolic acidosis, extremely dry skin) as well as the fact that users who report on their withdrawal from GBL clearly have a much harder time coming off it and find that the withdrawal threshold occurrs much earlier than with GHB and much harder.

Last edited by MrG; 29-10-2009 at 08:56.
  #19  
Old 18-11-2008, 16:27
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Re: Safe way to use GHB?

Thanks, swim does not intend to consume every day and just wanted to try it. swim doesn't have the links but read users on here arguing if gbl was different in effect to ghb many saying it wasn't. swim read in other threads on this forum the nausea also occurs with ghb but maybe that's not true? myclonic spasms don't seem like the same effect to swim!

oh well, as per usual the safe substances are illegal and the more dangerous ones are fine.

while swim is tempted to convert to the active and natural form ghb, swim expects the government views doing that as a serious and evil drug factory act needing years of jail because swim is a rapist and evil drug cartel lord, sending his ill gained profits to fund terrorism, dolphin abuse and international pedophilia trading - plus any other emotionally charged word they can come up with to confuse the issue, so will instead just goto the local gay bar and ask for some in a few months time

swim will not injest the superglue remover gbl on a regular basis and is greatful for the warning. swim figured it was unlikely to hurt (much) to try it once or twice based on the number of people doing it. swim doesn't want a spasming colon thanks just to get high.

Last edited by discodave; 18-11-2008 at 16:45.
  #20  
Old 18-11-2008, 16:55
MrG MrG is offline
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Re: Safe way to use GHB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by discodave View Post
so will instead just goto the local gay bar and ask for some in a few months time
Actually I have written a number of times about the risks associated with ingesting GHB bought from third parties.

Personally, given that GHB is class C in the UK, I would consider it less risky to do the synth oneself, than to buy something of questionable quality and/or purity.

Not that I am condoning anybody doing something like that, because that is illegal. I am merely stating an opinion that is based on risk assessment.
  #21  
Old 19-11-2008, 02:18
laskerja laskerja is offline
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Re: Safe way to use GHB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by discodave View Post
laskerja: UTFSE! Or click on this link.

wow thanks for the link!
  #22  
Old 22-11-2008, 01:29
discodave discodave is offline
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Re: Safe way to use GHB?

you're welcome.

Last edited by discodave; 22-11-2008 at 23:14. Reason: various
  #23  
Old 15-12-2009, 20:03
Benga Benga is offline
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Re: Safe way to use GHB?

maybe this thread should also be stickied.
lots of good clear information there- though i must say the number of people on the forum claiming to have suffered GHB or GBL addictions and withdrawals, number of reads on the subject and the ease into which people describe slipping into 24/7 dosing regimes is still slightly worrying enough to want to keep a firm grip on one's G use.

b
  #24  
Old 08-02-2010, 12:19
Benga Benga is offline
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Re: Safe way to use GHB?

time has gone by, and Arelquino's been experimenting some more.
after the great addiction scare fueled by the threads in the forum, it doesn't seem as dangerous as it once did-

few notes : switching totally to naGHB was a bit of a letdown, as the solutions / ingestion- to effect time range proved difficult to handled- ended up on the couch, passed out- never happened with gelcapped GBL, which is also more handy- the very nature of the effects, probably linked to in-vivo conversion and bioavailability, seem to make GBL more stimulating for this masked comedian--let down thus, as this make Arlequino unwilling to use naGHB more than 10 meters aways from his own couch or bed.

this is a real shame, as he had intended to give up on unconverted GBL, by the effects for him are less stimulating, less inebriating and generally less fun for a truly recreational social use- that said, MrG's numerous warnings on the subject leaves the critter ashamed of prefering the unhealthy, more problematic GBL to the more studied naGHB....

another side note, once though that naGHB would solve Miss Arlequino's acetaldehyde dehydrogenase (ALDH2) issues, the enzimesnormally responsible for breaking down acetaldehyde, which doesn't work that well in 50% of people of Asian descent causing the ifamous "Asian flush" but, more problematic, the falling asleep after a single beer, which makes social alcohol consumption somewhat touchy.

alas, we've yet to find a dosage which doesn't induce deep sleep (naGHB) or intense nausea and sleed (GBL), starting to work on lowered doses but response to G does seem affected...

and finally, though addiction scares are further away and this is highly subjective, Alrequino's been finding himself getting angry more often. This could be a few days after G use--- and since the anabolic effects are noticeable, including on his middle eastern hair fleece which seems to grow more vigorous, he's starting to wonder if this might not be testosterone / dopamine related stress--- i mean this raising of the voice and slamming a bunch of papers on the ground could be anything, middle life crisis, not enough sun, staying indoors--- but Arlequino didn't have any short temper issues since he was in his teens, so this is, well, new, grrrrrr

any input on the effects of recreational use of G (naGHB and / or GBL) , not 24/7 but more like once or twice a week for a few hours, and mood, anger, irritability ?

nothing fancy, but Arlequino's partner doesn't want him turning into a monster all of a sudden- and the question of this being a potential consequence of G use was brought up

thanks

b
  #25  
Old 10-02-2010, 00:06
stucat stucat is offline
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Re: Safe way to use GHB?

First post and it's bound to contradict a few people who think they are well informed. but here goes....
Firstly to laskerja : many of the actions of ghb/gbl are V.similar to opiates and as there is "a risk" of dependance , as an ex heroin junkie the smart money says think carefully.
for Runitsthepolice : It is indeed compulsive , perhaps not like heroin but nausea insomnia and other side affects are quite common(yes even with prescription doses).
Mr G:recent test results show that contrary to the belief that HGH was only stimulated with sedative doses smaller dose will also produce significant hgh production. Also sleep is only interupted when combined with other cns stimulants.
for everyone. one of the reasons for discontinuing ghb use as a aneasthetic was that the margin between euphoric ,sleep inducing and fatsal doses was too small. compounded in individuals with alcohol because it inhibits the usually rapid metabolising.
To Benga: The aggression issue is less likely to be related to dopamine "bounces "than to the way people emerge from sedation aggression is common when waking from ghb induced sleep(hospitals will restrain a comatose patient to avoid poss trouble).Its not uncommon with many current anaesthetics.
I have been taking Xyrem 2x4.5mg doses 3 hrs apart nightly for 11mths now . The obvious affect on my sleep is profound , normally my night is 30mins down 30mins up I now sleep till my alarm , dose again and out for 4/5hrs(it has greatly reduced my eds(falling asleep daytime) and let me drop the dexedrine by 20mg per day) my average of 29 episodes of cataplexy per day has been reduced by 87% and also has reduced severity of remaining attacks. all in all it's been great for my narcolepsy. I still try and have days off here and there but it's hard to find room for a guaranteed crap nights sleep. the amphetamine I've been taking daily for 12yrs now and have regular weekends off it without bother. I find the Xyrem harder to do without , all drugs use affects are subjective and this is my two pence worth.
great site full of good and bad info but shared knowledge is the best knowledge.
OOps midnight !! time for my good night beverage

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