God in Recovery

[Cryptic Concoction]

The main issue I have with many drug treatment programs is the rhetoric they spout that there is only one path to sobriety. They continually assert that there is simply one way to achieve control of one's drug use and that those who do not adhere strictly to the prescribed doctrine will fail miserably and die, be incarcerated, or institutionalized.

While AA and NA may be efficacious for some, they are simply not the only potentially effective recourse for drug treatment.

On a side note, I have always found the dichotomy of "drug addicts" and "alcoholics" to be peculiar...

[chillinwill]

Originally Posted by Cryptic Concoction

The main issue I have with many drug treatment programs is the rhetoric they spout that there is only one path to sobriety. They continually assert that there is simply one way to achieve control of one's drug use and that those who do not adhere strictly to the prescribed doctrine will fail miserably and die, be incarcerated, or institutionalized.

While AA and NA may be efficacious for some, they are simply not the only potentially effective recourse for drug treatment.

On a side note, I have always found the dichotomy of "drug addicts" and "alcoholics" to be peculiar...

So very true and thats one of the main reasons why Red Rock doesn't attend NA basically anymore. He doesn't agree with what they say about NA being the ONLY way to get clean and sober and if you don't adhere to their way, you will fail and either be in jails, institutions, or death. Red Rock has created his way of getting clean which may not work for everyone and may not be the best thing for someone else, but it works for him and that's what matters

[Annasolveig]

Originally Posted by Cryptic Concoction

The main issue I have with many drug treatment programs is the rhetoric they spout that there is only one path to sobriety. They continually assert that there is simply one way to achieve control of one's drug use and that those who do not adhere strictly to the prescribed doctrine will fail miserably and die, be incarcerated, or institutionalized.

While AA and NA may be efficacious for some, they are simply not the only potentially effective recourse for drug treatment.

On a side note, I have always found the dichotomy of "drug addicts" and "alcoholics" to be peculiar...

The big book of alcoholics anonymous does not say that the AA way is the only way, the treatment centers do it sometimes.

[Spare Chaynge]

agreed they give you a false dilemma.

[Fight Club]

Their is nothing I am aware of in the AA or NA literature that states that the 12-steps are the only way to battle addiction and alcoholism. 12-step programs tend to work as a program of last resort for those who have tried everything else. Even then, those programs work best for those who follow the "recommendations" of the 12 steps. Going to meetings, getting a sponsor, being in service, helping other alcoholics / addicts. "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path" is how Chapter 5 of the big book begins. It suggests that this can be your path to sobriety, but never that it is the only one.

FC

Reputation Comments on this post:

	excellent point!
	nice to have someone with the facts on this

[Cryptic Concoction]

Originally Posted by Fight Club

Their is nothing I am aware of in the AA or NA literature that states that the 12-steps are the only way to battle addiction and alcoholism. 12-step programs tend to work as a program of last resort for those who have tried everything else.
FC

I haven't seen it in the NA or AA literature; I've heard it from the drug treatment programs that administer the literature.

[chillinwill]

Originally Posted by Fight Club

Their is nothing I am aware of in the AA or NA literature that states that the 12-steps are the only way to battle addiction and alcoholism. 12-step programs tend to work as a program of last resort for those who have tried everything else. Even then, those programs work best for those who follow the "recommendations" of the 12 steps. Going to meetings, getting a sponsor, being in service, helping other alcoholics / addicts. "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path" is how Chapter 5 of the big book begins. It suggests that this can be your path to sobriety, but never that it is the only one.

FC

It might not be directly stated but every treatment center that Red Rock has been to and numerous people in NA including his sponsor have stated that they haven't seen anybody get clean and sober without following the NA way (steps, meetings, sponsor, network, etc). This is so false as they believe that their way is the best and won't even consider the possibilities that another way is possible to get clean. Red Rock thinks of this sorta like some religions in which they believe if you don't believe in what we preach and say, then there is no hope.

[Annasolveig]

Originally Posted by chillinwill

It might not be directly stated but every treatment center that Red Rock has been to and numerous people in NA including his sponsor have stated that they haven't seen anybody get clean and sober without following the NA way (steps, meetings, sponsor, network, etc). This is so false as they believe that their way is the best and won't even consider the possibilities that another way is possible to get clean. Red Rock thinks of this sorta like some religions in which they believe if you don't believe in what we preach and say, then there is no hope.

Well, I was an active member of AA, I sponsored a lot of women and so on. And I HAVE seen people get clean without the 12 steps. The more experience I got in this field, the more confused I got, because things aren't always the same. But I never recommended any other way because this was the only way I knew, and IT does work, no doubt, if people are willing to fallow it.

[Spare Chaynge]

Fight club has spoken truth. The only problem is the people who have gotten clean and sober open up drug rehabilitation facilities. The facilities are often recommended by court order. Once there, if the patient is unwilling to follow the aa way and wants to do it there way, negative reports are often given to the court saying the client is unwilling and recommending jail sentence or re evaluation of the sentence.

This happened to swim at one rehab. He told them he was done and that he did not need aa and they said he did and tried to give the judge a bad report. He left and found a place an iop that was slightly less hardcore.

The interesting thing is swim never wanted to get off drugs before he was happy with drugs(but not his life). So he never truly tried to get off them.

Until a court order came along and sent him into rehab. After a certain period of time once his thinking cleared he was like well swim likes being clean. Its better, the feeling of getting materials and good grades beat the hell out of an fentanyl addiction. This continued in all aspects of his life.

So swim is now in an interesting situation. He knows He is happier off drugs. But was aa really the last resort that saved his life.... probably not(most likely it was the fact that he was instiutionalize and put in and out of rehab curtailing his drug use and allowing his mind to clear for 8 months). He was forced to get clean and sober and then just naturally started loving it once his neurotransmitters got back to normal....

swim never had that desperate feeling of repeatedly trying over and over on his own to get off drugs and not being successful. He was just thrown into aa first try getting off drugs.

A huge motivation to get off drugs was the fact he had zero cash and no materials and was intellectually starved... 12 months ago swim was convinced if he could just get back in school get some money saved up clear his head for a bit and get out of the legal system he could drink successfully. Now he thinks different...


Thanks so much everyone on this forum particularly this thread for being there for swim.

Even if swims have a slightly different opinion all of this is intellectually stimulating to swim and makes swim so happy. This is swims best support network because swim can be truly honest

[Gappa]

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled,!? Was convincing humanity he does'nt exist..
EVERYTHING I have prayed for that was good for me I have recieved. WTF you say?
Gappa has been tested and has had horrible things happen to him, HORRIBLE things! I believe these things were retribution for the stuff he had been into.
I may have wavered slightly but never totally lost faith and those horrible things were turned to gold before my eyes. Faith is a funny thing. IMOnly: God is alive and well friends! The Lord is good beyond measure. I imagined Heaven last night as a huge rave with nothing but love and God is the "drug"lol When the soul is in the presence of him it cares for nothing but the joy it possesses. I can't wait hee hee.
If you are living like there is no God U better damn sure be right bout it! That would SUCK!! I know what I have felt.. I speak to him and hear him talk back.. WTF? Yea those are just the voices in my head Gappa's nutz guys.lol I describe it as, "Less than a feeling but more than a thought"
These are my opionions only! I don't want to stir a hornets nest of this and that. But I thought god had hijacked the site...heeee heee

Reputation Comments on this post:

god stuff man

[hippie_lain]

sup fight club, its been awhile. im a big fan of that quote gappa, i use it all the time. but i yeah i agree man, i cant wait for heaven. ive never found life so joyful when i was using but its like you said man, the bad was turned to gold before my eyes

swim would like to state that he got clean without out aa but about 3 years in he needed some support and found the people at AA amazing. AA and the 12 steps is not his cornerstone of recovery but it sure as hell helps.

[Gappa]

Hippie lain, He gives you just what you need exactly when you need it. Spiritual growth. This condescends all religion and really all people. I consider myself a small child many times. In reality I know nothing. I like to think I was wise and knowledgeable but as soon as I think "yea I got it" I am humbled by what I learn next.
No matter how much we learn as a species, It always leads to more questions.

[Gappa]

If people are willing and truly want to get clean this is the only way they truly will. SWIM remembers sitting in an NA meeting getting ready to go out and score and couldn't wait for it to be over. Or imagine forced to detox in jail and knowing the day of ur release the first thing planned is a fat score. God as a higher power in NA/AA is often misjudged. Your god may be Satan or your higher power may be a trashcan. Different strokes for different folks! Some have gotten clean off willpower alone, although rare indeed it happens. Whatever works but one thing for SURE your WILL HAS TO BE IN IT %100 or you will fail. If you have no desire to be clean you WILL FAIL and continue to use.. FACT!!!!

[guldenat]

Originally Posted by Gappa

If people are willing and truly want to get clean this is the only way they truly will.

Just to clarify - are you saying the will and true desire to get clean is the only way, or that NA/AA is the only way? I just want to be certain of what you are saying before I potentially make an ass out of myself responding.

[Gappa]

Originally Posted by guldenat

Just to clarify - are you saying the will and true desire to get clean is the only way, or that NA/AA is the only way? I just want to be certain of what you are saying before I potentially make an ass out of myself responding.

NA/AA is deff not the only way!! If some one has the will and truly desires to stop using/make changes in their life that is he key to success. The only other way.. if a person still has the will to use, for them to get clean, is to lock them in a room with only food and water with no access to drugs. If they want to use they will go to any lengths to get them. Human will is a very powerful thing it can drive one to the corners of the earth to achieve a goal. ie. seeking a fix..


Cryptic: I agree totally... So many variables though. What person, what drug, their history, their state of mind..etc. ect. like for SWIM for example: If SWIM were to take a hit of LSD he would be fine, but a fat worx of fine china white and he would crash and burn.. with a quickness!

[scored]

Oh deary deary me, Jesus must be rolling in his grave hearing how he is associated with NA. To say the 12-step fellowships are religious could a spark a raft of discussion and analitical disemination around the word 'religious'.

I guess my fox would have to go a long way to find a 12-step meeting place that was christian..

GOD can be interpreted as Good Orderly Direction and if Swiy unfortunate enough to be in a position to be in a 12-step fellowship then maybe try on the possibilty that some Good Orderly Direction may be needed.

[Cryptic Concoction]

I also do not buy into the "once an addict, always an addict" inane rhetoric. A failure to remain abstinent does not necessitate a regression to prior use patterns. It is entirely possible for a person with drug "abuse problems" to recover and regain control of his or her use of psychotropics without denouncing them as the physical manifestation of Satan. It is entirely possible for some "drug addicts" to recover and continue to use some psychotropics recreationally in moderation.

Many drug treatment programs fail to recognize the variation in drug abuse, and conflate all drug "abusers" into one generalized category.

Not only this, but I find the notion that people are "born" addicts (which is imposed on the members of some drug treatment programs) absurd. To say that all people with drug abuse problems are "born" addicts is to ignore the manifold environmental, social, and biological variables that can potentially contribute to drug use patterns. Genetics is only a component of the equation.

I also am not entirely in agreement with the notion that all addicts are victims of a horrific and uncontrollable disease that will plague them for life, and over which they have absolutely no control.

There is no one way to recover from drug addiction, and all drug addicts cannot be forced into an overgeneralized template. SWIM once had difficulties restraining himself with drugs and was forced into a rehabilitation center. He now continues to use drugs in extreme moderation, despite the caveat of his drug treatment program that any drug use at all would result in a violent relapse ultimately ending in institutionalization, death, or incarceration. While he may be an anomaly, all "drug addicts" cannot be treated the same.

Of course, SWIM's situation cannot be applied to all or even most addicts, and the stories of other addicts cannot necessarily be applied to him. All people are different. Programs that work for some may not work for others and vice versa.

[Euthanatos93420]

But you said...

Some have gotten clean off willpower alone, although rare indeed it happens.

I gotta call bullshit. Swim has his own Alchemical process for sobriety (Although he hasn't attempted to use it on his nicotine addiction yet...) that served him well enough to put down Meth and a psychological addiction to weed.

He can now use weed as he likes (And not use weed as he likes) without significant mental anguish (Beyond the Bipolar mood swings and Autistic Anti-social dysfunctional that existed long before he used weed to effectively treat them).

Your god may be Satan or your higher power may be a trashcan.

I don't think you really know what you're talking about here. Modern day LHP practitioners (With a few exceptions, namely the Temple of Set & OTO which is really an RHP in disguise) non-theistic Humanists. The loose tenant is essential one of self-empowerment away from religious institutions and into the individual. So, unless you're talking about a Setian or a Luciferian, when you say Satan you must mean the self. You can clarify what you meant but my question will still stand regardless of ideology and naming institutions.

Can one's Self be the higher power? Like Aleister Crowley or Sylvia Brown's 'Guardian Angel' one's 'Soul' or 'Jati' (Reincarnating Families loosely based on Hindu Theology) be one's higher power? Can one have a higher spiritual 'self' that can impart this power of recovery the physical self does not have the willpower to do?

Of course that actually fits pretty well with Hermetic paradigm because The physical self tends to be pretty ignorant but is capable of communion, awareness and interaction with the higher self. Of course that's the gist of it but I don't want to digress into Hermetic philosophy & Khabbalistic Spiritual Mechanics and the true nature of Kharma. We alreadyf have a thread going for that sort of thing. Essentially can the 'self' be one's 'higher power'?

Oh yeah and while I'm at it....can another living human being be one's higher power? A living animal? A dead animal? A dead human? Can The nothing be a higher power? or does it have to be something? Just food for thought in the end I suppose. Still I'd be interested in hearing opinions...

[Gappa]

Sounds like Scored's Good Orderly Direction is straight to the dopeman's spot.lol
Jesus "rolling in a grave"?? lol
The ONLY text we have referring to this says he rose after 3 days.
But to put this to a completely level playing field, every man owes a death. None of us will know or not know until that day comes for each of us.
As for me I trust and have faith in the Lord. And I just hope and pray your Good Orderly Direction gets you where you want to be.
Have a good day and love to all!

[Euthanatos93420]

@Gappa - What if I'm a discordian and Good Orderly Direction is anti-theitical to my belief structure? Can Chaos be my 'higher power'? Or the number 5=0?

Putting 'God' into recovery gets really convoluted when you hit the abstract de-theistical belief structures.