God in Recovery

[Spare Chaynge]

So recently swim has strayed away from god. A so called bad thing in the program of aa,na or ca.

Well with the election and being overwhelmed with school swim is starting to think about using. So swim stepped back for a moment of prayer today after having a really bad morning.

He sat down and started his prayer and meditation and after a minute or so realized he had disturbed a fire ant bed. He got bit a shit load of time. lol oh man what will happen next.

How is everyone else doing?

ps swim agrees that will power is the man issue with staying off drugs. When some one has cancer and its bad god can help psychologically but in the end
radiation cures. In drug addiction not taking drugs cures and it is your choice.

[fiveleggedrat]

I guess Religion does help a drug user out. Swim has none, so he has only his broken logic to fall back on, and sadly, drugs overwrite the brain's logic

Swim suggests, if they are tempted to use, find another activity, quickly. Go see a friend, family, go shopping, etc. Swim is always VERY tempted to use, and even though Swim has no technical "addiction", (not physically at least), Swim does have to admit it is hard to say No, even with things like marijuana.

What sucks for Swim is that he's like this everyday, and he finds it impossible to break from all drugs for more than a few days, which is even a challenge. Swim likes being high on anything too much for his own good.

[hippie_lain]

well you know swims story spare change. he doesnt really even go to AA or NA, i just go to church and prays alot and thats enough for swim. swim has found it rather easy to no to drugs just cause to him Christs love and joy is the best high out there. i can promise swiy that things get easier as you grow in god. a friend of mine put it this way, drug use is like a prostitute, and the closer you become to god the uglier the prostitute gets...lol, ill be praying for you man.

as far as how swim is doing hes great. hes growing very fast and has a promising future in store for him. things do get hard sometimes but that just makes swim enjoy his peace when he can find it.

Reputation Comments on this post:

thanks for keeping thread alive

[PsychoActivist]

LOL, when I saw the title of this thread I immediately thought, "Man this celebrity rehab shit is really getting out of control... Even God is in recovery!"

Sorry... I couldn't resist.

Reputation Comments on this post:

thanks

[Nature Boy]

You don't need religion or the AA to control your drug use. It's all about willpower and anyone who denies that is simply blaming anything other than themselves for their problems. I think it's rather hilarious that you got bitten by ants as you prayed. Talk about irony. The concept of prayer is one of the most ridiculous facets of human culture IMO. Note IMO, I don't want to get slated for having an opinion.

Reputation Comments on this post:

I don't think quitting/staying quit is "all about willpower". Coping strategies are important for one thing. W...

[Nature Boy]

A blank rep (presumably intended as negative) that I received:

I don't think quitting/staying quit is "all about willpower". Coping strategies are important for one thing. Why would CBT / 12-steps help people more than nothing if it was ALL about willpower?

I don't see why you couldn't just ask me this in the thread. To answer the question, I would liken the 12-step programmes to a salesman. A customer walks into a store to buy a product. He knows exactly what he wants and he proceeds to the shelf and picks it out. Just as he approaches the counter, the salesman swings in and discusses how great his choice of product is. The customer, confused, buys the product anyway and boom, the salesman has claimed commission.

12-step programmes don't achieve anything. They're just another nonsensical self-help gimmick that lead people into believing that they're effective. To say that 12-steps are more effective than nothing is twisting the truth. Someone who kicks an addiction doesn't do nothing. They exercise their willpower which is something many people find hard to do.

[Euthanatos93420]

While in one hand I think AA/NA can help a few people, I am heavily amused by your analogy to sales. I think the metaphor extends a little further than you imply even here. That gets me to thinking...

Reputation Comments on this post:

thanks for adding stuff

[hippie_lain]

i know alot of people that tried many times to get of drugs/alcohol and when they tried the 12 steps program they succeeded. by the way 12 steps is non profit so i really dont think the whole salesman bit makes sense and sponsors always make sure you know exactly what the 12 steps mean and how to go about each one. they dont leave you by yourself to be confused, aa and other programs are a community and support each other even to extremes. so ive personly seen many people find new hope and strength through aa and spirituality and ive sponsored a couple of people and the programs works for them. you just have to keep on doing what works for you, whatever that is. what do you just hate god so you bag on anything invovling him? now i agree getting of drugs is a matter of willpower, if you want it bad enough youll make it happen. i dont go to aa or na and ive been clean for about 4 years but it works very well for alot of people. i dont get why you would try do down something that its only purpose is to help people manage there life. and the whole thing about prayer, why is hoping in something good in your life or the people lifes that you love, why would that ever be a bad thing or ridiculous...

[Euthanatos93420]

why would that ever be a bad thing or ridiculous...

Because nothing is perfect. Sure it helps people. There are many cases where it doesn't. There are even cases where it has abused people. Those are individuals not the system granted. However, The rigid indoctrination into a thought pattern is a lot like brainwashing. There are some people so mentally fucked they need a system to teach them rigid white knuckle willpower before they can undo their complexes.

I disagree however, with their philosophy that ALL drugs are bad. Mmm'kay...

Moreover, drugs aren't the real problem. Prohibiton and a massive lack of personal responsibility are.

That said, until the machine gets fixed...it's not that bad of a jury rig. There are good alternatives for those who it doesn't jive with. And many will benefit from it. I'm particularily fond of the One day at a time tidbit. That has helped me through many things in life and is a useful paradigm for change.

[beena]

I think surrendering yourself to a higher power is just a cop-out. If SWIM gets clean from drugs she will be able to say that she did it herself and it was hard work but she stuck to it and made it. SWIM doesn't want some Christian to give the credit to God (who doesn't exist btw).

Reputation Comments on this post:

thanks for adding stuff

[Nature Boy]

Originally Posted by hippie_lain

i know alot of people that tried many times to get of drugs/alcohol and when they tried the 12 steps program they succeeded. by the way 12 steps is non profit so i really dont think the whole salesman bit makes sense and sponsors always make sure you know exactly what the 12 steps mean and how to go about each one. they dont leave you by yourself to be confused, aa and other programs are a community and support each other even to extremes. so ive personly seen many people find new hope and strength through aa and spirituality and ive sponsored a couple of people and the programs works for them. you just have to keep on doing what works for you, whatever that is. what do you just hate god so you bag on anything invovling him? now i agree getting of drugs is a matter of willpower, if you want it bad enough youll make it happen. i dont go to aa or na and ive been clean for about 4 years but it works very well for alot of people. i dont get why you would try do down something that its only purpose is to help people manage there life. and the whole thing about prayer, why is hoping in something good in your life or the people lifes that you love, why would that ever be a bad thing or ridiculous...

12-steps programmes have a varied success rate and the notion of surrendering oneself to a higher power causes them to be either entirely inapplicable or merely ridiculous beyond respectability for many people. There are confidentiality problems too, in that none of the confidentiality is protected by laws, therefore anyone who attends an AA meeting runs a great risk if they are known to others there. The entire organisation is geared like a Christian cult, its slogans and practices completely shunning anyone who does not belong to a Christian church. And do remember, many people are legally required to attend these meetings, regardless of religious beliefs.

I'll ignore the "what do you just hate god" comment for now, excusing your staggering level of naiveté. So obsessed are some people with their very own ungrounded belief systems that they cannot, for a second, comprehend that others may not consider those beliefs at all.

Good day, pilgrim.

[hippie_lain]

in my experience they dont shun people who dont beleive in god or attend a christian church. in fact most of the people ive met dont go to church and believe in more of a higher power than jesus christ. its just a way of seeking help from a different source, something they can believe can make them stronger. im fine if people dont consider my beliefs. ive never been one to force something on someone or judge people. aa or na isnt for everyone but it works for alot of people. all im trying to say is why down something that is a good thing for alot of people? and in my opinion being rooted in the gospel is a very grounded belief. i seen and experienced to many miricles to deny the presence of god in my life. and euthanatos i dont beleive all drugs are bad either. i think some people can drink responsibly and i dont really have a problem with pot.

[guldenat]

Originally Posted by hippie_lain

all im trying to say is why down something that is a good thing for alot of people?

My answer to that question (which wasn't even addressed to me, so my apologies for sticking my nose in) is two-fold. One, programs like AA and NA are not perfect, and like anything can benefit from critical eyes. Their greatest strength is also their greatest flaw - the acceptance of a higher power and that "I can't stop this addiction on my own". For those who can and do accept a higher power, the program often works wonders. Believing in a higher power while trying to break an addiction is a lot like having someone 'spot' you while lifting weights - usually the person really isn't bearing any of the weight, but the illusion of outside help provides a great psychological benefit to the aspiring Lou Ferrignos of the world. However this same strength alienates those who cannot, or will not accept a higher power. It'd be nice to have a support group for individuals with alcohol and drug problems who are atheist and/or agnostic.

The other reason is while many people have (and in my opinion) with good reason do not accept the existence of a higher power, their are those who have a strong emotional dislike of religion, and ironically proselytize their irrational distaste with the same vigor you might see in a mid-america protestant. If you are a religious person, my advice would be to ignore the latter athesit, and speak intelligently with the former.

Originally Posted by hippie_lain

and in my opinion being rooted in the gospel is a very grounded belief.

I think we'd have to define what we mean by "grounded".

Reputation Comments on this post:

	excellent analogy to the spotter in lifting weights
	thanks for adding stuff

[chillinwill]

In Red Rock's opinion, NA/AA could be an excellent and valuable resource for many people especially if they don't have anywhere else to turn to try to stop their addiction. However; one thing NA says that Red Rock fully disagrees with is that NA states that THEY are the ONLY way to stop one's addiction and recovery. What about all the other types of recovery such as Rational Recovery, SMART recovery, LifeRing Secular Recovery, and REBT (Rational Emotive Behavior Recovery). They also state that no one that has followed our direct path (talking about working steps, sponsor, etc) will fail. Well Red Rock knows several people personally that put their heart and soul into that program after they lost everything and just had been released from a 10+ year stint in prison and they failed and did everything that the program asked them to.

In terms of a higher power in NA/AA, those 2 programs state over and over that they are a non-religious program and that one just has to have an understanding and believe in a higher power. They say it could be GOD, buddhism, the group itself, a doorknob, whatever you want it to be. One complaint Red Rock has with this is that in all reality, does someone really think a doorknob is going to help them with their addiction? I mean, I know its a stupid thing to say but come on now. Also, they state they are a not religious fellowship; yet, 5 of the 12 steps have the word GOD in them. If they weren't trying to force Christian GOD beliefs on their members, then why even put the word GOD in the whole principle of NA/AA which is the 12 steps. I know its just as easily to interpret the steps in one's own way and can change the word GOD with whatever they chose but IMO, one shouldn't have to do that. Also, in some meetings, they recite the Lord's prayer. It's a common prayer but still, IMO, they shouldn't do that. What if a newcomer in the program is atheist, agnostic, buddhist, whatever it may be, I think this would make them feel uncomfortable since a lot of addicts and newcomers in the program have trouble defining their own spiritualness and higher power and can cause them to decide not to stay.

[Nature Boy]

It's treated as if it's the most effective model for curing alcoholism when it really isn't. Overcoming alcoholism is a personal choice and the best that can be done for someone is to give them the honest medical truth, and maybe prescribe them something if they're having significant withdrawal symptoms. You don't need people dropping on their knees for Jehovah or to a rock or to whatever object/being/thingy is chosen. That's just a distraction and IMO, a stupid waste of time unless you guard it dear as the very essense of your belief system. Many people are perfectly happy in accepting addictions as their own fault. That sounds like the real first step, not submitting to being powerless. That's a negative attitude from the offset.

[guldenat]

Originally Posted by Nature Boy

It's treated as if it's the most effective model for curing alcoholism when it really isn't. Overcoming alcoholism is a personal choice and the best that can be done for someone is to give them the honest medical truth, and maybe prescribe them something if they're having significant withdrawal symptoms. You don't need people dropping on their knees for Jehovah or to a rock or to whatever object/being/thingy is chosen. That's just a distraction and IMO, a stupid waste of time unless you guard it dear as the very essense of your belief system. Many people are perfectly happy in accepting addictions as their own fault. That sounds like the real first step, not submitting to being powerless. That's a negative attitude from the offset.

I think that it goes back to my spotter and weight lifting analogy - their is a psychological benefit to believing that someone is helping you - even if they're not. Though personally, at least with the spotter he will prevent you from dropping the bar on your neck and killing yourself if it comes to that, hard to say the same about a higher power that doesn't exist.

But I think you touch on something important - admitting you are powerless to do something on your own seems counter intuitive to start overcoming adversity.

[hippie_lain]

now i dont personally think na or aa are the best or not in anyway the only way one can stay sober. i just think its a choice to take when you havent had much success. I think you just have to keep on doing what works best for you. for me it was religion. i went to jail and it seemed to light a fire on my ass to change my life so i would never have to go again. and some miraculous stuff started happening in my life so i believed and had faith. for some people its the 12 steps, others a girlfriend or family and for others they just a matter of what they really want and they make it happen. i think the spotting thing is right on. its nice to know someone will pick you up if you fail and wether god is real and will pick you up i think is up to ones self to find out. out of curiousity are you guys in recovery? and where the hell is spare change? its your thread id like to hear whats going on...

[Spare Chaynge]

lol. swims only got like 10 months now. His girlfriend has 4 1/2 years and constantly says he is wrong about this. swim in the past 2 months has seriously taken a look at his belief on god and has questioned it.

But. Swims god got things rolling and then wiped his hands of things. swim understands that it is psychologically beneficial to believe that god is working in ones life and is protecting them. When some one has cancer having faith that god is going to help beat the cancer is very powerful. but in the end radiation cures.

sooo swim thinks believing that god is in ones life is very beneficial and supportive. but in swims life, swim believes in god and the free will that he has given swim to do what ever is correct.

Therefore swim does not attribute his sobriety to god. in a sense god is responsible because he has given us free will but this belife has resulted in swims gradual decline from 12 step groups because swim is constantly picked out as a radical and spiritually unfit(swim lives in Texas.)

Swim enjoys sober life way more than drugged life(swims life on drugs consisted of having no friends getting arrested having seizures over dosing on drugs hospital visits and one hospital visit where they told him he had aids and let him think that for 3 days finally got him sober.

so swim thinks this fact along with the fact that swim thinks that god gave him free will to do right and that his free will is very powerful and god given is enough to keep him sober along with support from friends.

He regrets that he had to leave aa but after his sponser told him that he would have a needle in his arm in 6 weeks he had to leave for his own psychological health. By the way that was 10 weeks ago, Telling swim that he would have a needle in his arm is equivalent to telling someone that the field they have walked in is a mine field.

swim is missing out on swims pizza got to go.

[chillinwill]

one hospital visit where they told him he had aids and let him think that for 3 days finally got him sober.

was this the hospital staff that told SWIY this? IMO, thats fucked up

[Spare Chaynge]

shortly after swim was revived and moved to icu a Dr came in and told him he had pneumonia which was a symptoms of AIDS and that aids was likely the cause of it.. He then walked out..Swim being in the hospital for a fentanyl over dose had lived the life style and being brain dead from the fentanyl just assumed the dr of the icu ward knew his shit .. He thought his life was over for 3 days untill he was told he did not have aids....He later learned that aspirational pneumonia is common in opiate ods and the dr, probably knew this, but being an ass and knowing that everyone knows that pneumonia is a common occurance for people living with aids used this information to make swim think he had aids.

swim has not used since then that was about 10 months ago almost 11

[dyingtomorrow]

If I believed in God, I would pray that he would help society out by stopping them from destroying people's lives for consuming the plants he put on earth for us.

[Fight Club]

Originally Posted by beena

I think surrendering yourself to a higher power is just a cop-out. If SWIM gets clean from drugs she will be able to say that she did it herself and it was hard work but she stuck to it and made it. SWIM doesn't want some Christian to give the credit to God (who doesn't exist btw).

Maybe this is why you are having such a hard time quitting, and your willpower just isn't getting it done . . .

FC

[Annasolveig]

Originally Posted by hippie_lain

i know alot of people that tried many times to get of drugs/alcohol and when they tried the 12 steps program they succeeded. by the way 12 steps is non profit so i really dont think the whole salesman bit makes sense and sponsors always make sure you know exactly what the 12 steps mean and how to go about each one. they dont leave you by yourself to be confused, aa and other programs are a community and support each other even to extremes. ...

True, It says in the big book that their only purpose is to be able to help. But there are all kinds of people in AA and NA, like everywhere else, some people are still very sick. AA kept my clean for 4 years, and it also helped me enjoy life without the drugs. But I quit AA, don't know why, and after that i became depressed and got isolated. So, if people want to quit for good, i recommend AA, but you have to be ready to make a lot of changes. And obviously it takes a lot of "staying power" (I have none) to stay in AA and stay clean.

[Spare Chaynge]

Well... sobriety and aa are not synonymous.

Reputation Comments on this post:

That has to be the best Summary of all AA/NA threads yet. Glad to see you're sticking around.

[Cryptic Concoction]

The main issue I have with many drug treatment programs is the rhetoric they spout that there is only one path to sobriety. They continually assert that there is simply one way to achieve control of one's drug use and that those who do not adhere strictly to the prescribed doctrine will fail miserably and die, be incarcerated, or institutionalized.

While AA and NA may be efficacious for some, they are simply not the only potentially effective recourse for drug treatment.

On a side note, I have always found the dichotomy of "drug addicts" and "alcoholics" to be peculiar...