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  #1  
Old 04-11-2008, 20:20
dyingtomorrow dyingtomorrow is offline
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Why don't people grow opium in the U.S. and make H here?

SWIM is just curious why people don't grow the poppies here and make H or morphine? Does anyone know the reason?

Sorry if this is a stupid or obvious question, but SWIM sees huge patches of poppies growing in some places, and wonders why someone with a couple acres couldn't just make themselves all the H or morphine they could want.

Or England too, or anywhere in Europe.


Is the refinement process too hard here or something? Law enforcement? Economic reasons? SWIM doesn't get it.

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swim was wondering this as well
great question....always have wondered this myself
Good question, that would certainly be a plus for pure opium in the states
Good question makes one wonder.
  #2  
Old 04-11-2008, 20:35
fiveleggedrat fiveleggedrat is offline
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Re: Why don't people grow opium in the U.S. and make H here?

IMO it's because of logistics.

One single user would consume far too much to warrant growing. Only on an industrial scale would poppy growing make sense. Yields are really small, and that's why poppy fields are massive.

I believe a football field of poppies is only a few grams of opium.

Swim would love to grow poppies, and tons, but he can't afford to run some kind of stealth poppy grow. Maybe if Swim had a few acres, or a giant greenhouse...
  #3  
Old 04-11-2008, 20:35
Alfa Alfa is offline
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Re: Why don't people grow opium in the U.S. and make H here?

Good question. I would think that law enforcement would be the obvious factor, in contrast to whole countries producing opium under government and possibly Taliban protection.
  #4  
Old 04-11-2008, 20:47
dyingtomorrow dyingtomorrow is offline
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Re: Why don't people grow opium in the U.S. and make H here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiveleggedrat View Post
IMO it's because of logistics.

One single user would consume far too much to warrant growing. Only on an industrial scale would poppy growing make sense. Yields are really small, and that's why poppy fields are massive.

I believe a football field of poppies is only a few grams of opium.

Swim would love to grow poppies, and tons, but he can't afford to run some kind of stealth poppy grow. Maybe if Swim had a few acres, or a giant greenhouse...
There a famous quote out there about how stupid it is to try and stop opium abuse, because only a ____ square acres can feed the entire U.S. demand. I think it was some high government official.

That's what made me wonder.

A football field is only a few grams of raw opium, or raw heroin? That would very much surprise me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfa
Good question. I would think that law enforcement would be the obvious factor, in contrast to whole countries producing opium under government and possibly Taliban protection.
I could see how it would be near impossible because of law enforcement and just how many people per square mile there are in Europe, but there are a lot of places in the U.S., like Montana or North Dakota, etc. where people have ridiculously large pieces of property to themselves, probably are friends with the 1 sheriff in town (who wouldn't even know what an opium poppy was in the first place), and could easily grow a ton of it.

I feel like there is some obvious reason I'm missing. Maybe what 5leggedrat said is true, and they can just grow poppies all year round to make up for it, whereas in the U.S. the growing season would be a fraction of that.
  #5  
Old 04-11-2008, 22:09
MEKONE MEKONE is offline
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Re: Why don't people grow opium in the U.S. and make H here?

If SWIM had a decent piece of land they surely would fill most of it with poppies.As far as converting them to "H" I don't think they would go that far but to grow a acre or 2 of poppies why not.
  #6  
Old 05-11-2008, 06:36
JarvyJarvison JarvyJarvison is offline
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Re: Why don't people grow opium in the U.S. and make H here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dyingtomorrow View Post
I feel like there is some obvious reason I'm missing.
The simple and most obvious reason heroin is not produced in the United States is that its just too risky. One simply cannot produce a significant quantity on his own. One would need to hire people to grow and harvest the poppies, people to refine the product, and people to synthesize the heroin. The involvement of all these people alone makes it almost impossible to keep the operation under wraps. One could perhaps start a large-scale poppy growing operation under the premise of legitimate morphine production but that would require federal regulators, heavy taxes, etc. that would make heroin production even more difficult. That's why drugs like heroin and cocaine are produced in countries in which there is already a socially acceptable tradition of cultivation and use of the raw plant material (coca in South America, poppy/opium in SE Asia, ME, etc.) Sorting out the "legitimate" operations from the illicit ones would be quite a burden on the meager governments of the regions and in the case of poppy, unrefined opium can be bought in large quantities on the open market in some areas. Furthermore the production of heroin in the united states would require access to bulk precursors which are highly regulated in and of themselves which would entail smuggling with all its risks and costs.

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Thanks for the answer, sounds like you got it - OP
Pretty comprehensive information!
  #7  
Old 05-11-2008, 06:54
jon-q Gold member jon-q is offline
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Re: Why don't people grow opium in the U.S. and make H here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfa View Post
Good question. I would think that law enforcement would be the obvious factor, in contrast to whole countries producing opium under government and possibly Taliban protection.
Swim will guess the above statement is one of the main reasons why opium is not produced in any great amount "re-usa" but swim would like to add a little more as to why (Taliban and/or government) protection is a must in large scale poppy growing.
Swiself and many other forum members have already posted much of this information in various other sub forums and threads,so this is in no way "new" information that swim is bringing to the table~All of the following facts and figures are "Averages" simply to try and put things in to scale for other swimmers.....thanking you~
Poppys in particular the p.somniferum variety will grow in most climates and conditions,however in order to obtain the optimum opium/morphine content very wet,humid and hot conditions are best avoided,in afghanistan and china for example the seed to cropping cycle(approx 4 months)of poppys takes place between september and march.Given these optimum conditions 1 acre (4000sq meters) can produce around 3-5kg of raw opium and if this raw opium is 100% pure (no leaves,skin,debris e.t.c) this would yeild approx 300g-500g of morphine,again if this was 100% pure (80% seems to be the average) and dependant on the type of heroin produced(type 3-type 4) one would get a similar weight of heroin.
Given all of the above the said crop will need to be planted,tending esp first 2-4 weeks and cropping(10-14 days 5+ persons) and the obvious hidding,esp for two weeks when in full bloom,in other words large scale opium production is not something that can be done covertly and there must be some level of protection and/or turning a blind eye needed to grow large amounts of poppys!
Economics may also be a large reason as to answering the origonal question~Drug trafickers can buy 2kg of opium from farmers in afghanistan for less than three digit dollars!(see "A fatefull harvest"~you tube)
To sum up Swim will guess it is far less of a risk and cheaper to not produce opium (large scale) in the usa and simply import from third world/war riddled countrys???
Regards .....Q

Last edited by jon-q; 05-11-2008 at 13:07. Reason: Ran out of time this morning.....
  #8  
Old 11-08-2009, 22:06
waltz#2 waltz#2 is offline
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Re: Why don't people grow opium in the U.S. and make H here?

There were some very large guerrilla farms recently shut down in SWIM's area of the world. SWIM thinks it might be happening, but it's only in the news when it gets caught. SWIM doesn't think anyone here would volunteer the information that they are mass producing opium or herion in the states.

Harvesting would be a bitch. Getting the seeds from SWIM's tiny garden planter has taken all friggan day, SWIM could only imagine a whole field.
  #9  
Old 11-08-2009, 22:37
Joe_Pinko Joe_Pinko is offline
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Re: Why don't people grow opium in the U.S. and make H here?

All parts of the opium poppy, except for the seeds, are illegal in the USA.

Cops usually won't bother Grandma if she grows a few poppy plants in her backyard for ornamental purposes, but they certainly can arrest and charge her if they wanted to.

As previous posters have noted, it's also a lot of work, and a large field of poppies would eventually attract the interest of law enforcement.
  #10  
Old 11-08-2009, 23:51
Politicalchalk Politicalchalk is offline
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Re: Why don't people grow opium in the U.S. and make H here?

So, now Swim's curious. WIthout making any profit and produce solely for personal use among say, 4 people. How big a field would Swim need to get a decent yield?
  #11  
Old 12-08-2009, 00:59
dyingtomorrow dyingtomorrow is offline
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Re: Why don't people grow opium in the U.S. and make H here?

Heheh, SWIM's grandma showed him a picture the other day of him up on her property in Michigan with a knife, going among her little poppy field, with the poppies all expertly slashed up Afghanistan style. SWIM needs to get a copy of it as it would be perfect to post here.

(Nothing great came of it btw, besides a cool picture. Poppy excrement isn't really gonna do shit to someone with a 2-3 gram a day heroin habit as SWIM had at that time)
  #12  
Old 12-08-2009, 01:56
bcubed Gold member bcubed is offline
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Re: Why don't people grow opium in the U.S. and make H here?

Lizard had aquired some pods from a vendor for his decorating needs, and noticed that they came wrapped in Tucson AZ newspapers. Now, does that mean they are grown there, or (due to proximity to border) are smuggled in from Mexico there? He does not know (the site says "Arizona grown," but who knows?)

It'd be legally dangerous for one entity go all the way from seeds to H...and at any event, specialization of labor is the way the economy works. Far better for the grower to have "plausible deniability" about the end use of his flowers...which, BTW, would be lost if pods scored.

So, is anybody turning a profit from buying pods wholesale (probably meaning 10,000+) and refining? Dunno. Would it be possible? I do not know, don't want to know, and I don't ever even want to be perceived as asking!

(Although, I suppose one could hazard a guess as cost per pod at such large buys, cost and labor of chemical refinement, and (wholesale) value of the Heroin. At the very least, it would have to undercut "homebake" costs...)

Frankly, I think the answer to that is simple economic outsourcing. Labor is cheaper elsewhere, so "Made in the USA" heroin is as scarce as "Made in the USA" clothing! (For a comparison, apparently a afghan farmer gets about $4K/year for opium. Nobody I know would accept that kind of risk for even 10X the money!)

Last edited by bcubed; 12-08-2009 at 02:12.
  #13  
Old 12-08-2009, 03:23
Electrolingus Electrolingus is offline
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Re: Why don't people grow opium in the U.S. and make H here?

Quote:
"So, now Swim's curious. WIthout making any profit and produce solely for personal use among say, 4 people. How big a field would Swim need to get a decent yield?"
The opium yield from a single pod varies greatly, ranging from 10 to 100 milligrams of opium gum per pod. (Opium gum yield per capsule correlates very closely with capsule volume.) The average yield of raw opium gum per pod is about 80 milligrams. The dried opium yield ranges between 8 and 20 kilograms per hectare. The optimum spacing between plants is between 20 and 40 centimeters, or about 8 to 12 plants per square meter. Some researchers have reported as many as 18 plants per square meter, but such crowding is believed to hinder plant growth.
1 hectare = 2.471 acres

Quote:
Originally Posted by JarvyJarvison View Post
The simple and most obvious reason heroin is not produced in the United States is that its just too risky. One simply cannot produce a significant quantity on his own. One would need to hire people to grow and harvest the poppies, people to refine the product, and people to synthesize the heroin. The involvement of all these people alone makes it almost impossible to keep the operation under wraps.
This is true for large quantities. But for smaller quantities, it's actually less conspicuous than growing marijuana (ISHO), but with far less of a substantial end result. Everyone knows what marijuana is and looks like. But not so with poppies.

First off, not all poppies produce opium (so most people have no clue). So one can easily mix several PS in with some coleus, perennials, annuals, etc... in a backyard ornamental garden or in a field of wildflowers (and PS actually thrives in the sandy/peaty soil of the central and south central U.S.) As long as one keeps their mouth shut, there should be little trouble.

As far as yield. It's not great, but a single pod can be milked several times until it slows or stops secreting. With a big enough back yard or field and the right care and time, it can be a 'fun hobby'. One will however need at least 25-30 plants to make it worth while.

If the average law abiding citizen were to accidentally stumble upon a field of wildflowers mixed with P.S., they might stop and reflect on how lovely it looks and they would move on. A field of marijuana would stand out like a sore thumb.

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Good info in this post
Awesome information.
great post, full of useful stuff :)

Last edited by Electrolingus; 26-02-2010 at 01:08. Reason: to quote edit format.
  #14  
Old 12-08-2009, 04:19
chemanthony chemanthony is offline
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Re: Why don't people grow opium in the U.S. and make H here?

The amount Swiy would have to grow to support a serious Raw opium habit would become a issue. With time comes tolerance(LAME). Maybe for the recreational gardner who likes to catch a buzz every know and then it would be do-able. SWIM tried this and was very disappointed. Easier to just make tea if u want to get down every once and a while. Hell Swiy can order pods by the hundreds but its pricey.
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Old 13-08-2009, 18:59
SmokeNmirrors SmokeNmirrors is offline
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Re: Why don't people grow opium in the U.S. and make H here?

Swim thinks because it takes so much poppy plants to make heroin that it would get destroyed by law enforcement kinda like why no one grow cocaine here least swim has never heard it ever coming from US.
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Old 13-08-2009, 20:06
cra$h cra$h is offline
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Re: Why don't people grow opium in the U.S. and make H here?

Swim thought it was legal to have poppy plants, but once they have an incision on them, swiy's fucked. As far as yeild goes, can't you get a gram of opium out of only a handful of plants? Figguring that you only need a couple pods for tea, you're not going to need a houndred plants for a reasonable amount of opium. As for extracting the morphine, then acetating it to make H, there's a lot of loss in weight. I'm not sure if the morphine less opium is worth anything, but I'm sure it has some kind of recreational value.

As for why American's don't grow their own dope, it's for a couple reasons. Living in the city would make it impossible to grow a decent amount of poppies, and out in the burbs people think poppy pods and assume it's all illegal, and the lack of market. As for rural areas, they probably assume it's illegal to grow poppies too. But possibly the biggest factor is the lazyness. No one really wants to grow a decent size garden of poppies when they can just buy it. No (direct) work involved. Interesting question though.
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Old 13-08-2009, 20:45
dyingtomorrow dyingtomorrow is offline
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Re: Why don't people grow opium in the U.S. and make H here?

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Originally Posted by cra$h View Post
Swim thought it was legal to have poppy plants, but once they have an incision on them, swiy's fucked. As far as yeild goes, can't you get a gram of opium out of only a handful of plants? Figguring that you only need a couple pods for tea, you're not going to need a houndred plants for a reasonable amount of opium. As for extracting the morphine, then acetating it to make H, there's a lot of loss in weight. I'm not sure if the morphine less opium is worth anything, but I'm sure it has some kind of recreational value.

As for why American's don't grow their own dope, it's for a couple reasons. Living in the city would make it impossible to grow a decent amount of poppies, and out in the burbs people think poppy pods and assume it's all illegal, and the lack of market. As for rural areas, they probably assume it's illegal to grow poppies too. But possibly the biggest factor is the lazyness. No one really wants to grow a decent size garden of poppies when they can just buy it. No (direct) work involved. Interesting question though.
After mulling over this question some more, SWIM still is not satisfied.

There are properties with a hundreds acres in the north of the country that have no roads or access, minimal law enforcement, and cost less than your average suburban house to buy.

As they do with coca, just planting a shitload of poppies along tree lines in clearings would be almost certainly undetectable by plane, which is they only way they'd find out. Then, hiring a couple illegal immigrant families who you know won't rat you out to slit/scrape them - this should not be that difficult or dangerous. Heroin is harder to make, but morphine at least is a piece of cake.

SWIM can only think of one reason why poppies aren't cultivated massively here and showing up as heroin or morphine in our country - just cutting down the pods and selling them (which you can probably do without laborers or bothering to hide the fields) online or for "decorative purposes" to all the poppy tea drinkers is legal, and seems like it would be more profitable, faster, and safer then bothering to cut them, scrape gum and do all the chemistry shit to make morphine/heroin and then start an underground distribution network that competes with murderous drug syndicates while simultaneously avoiding law enforcement.

It has to be a purely economic reason, and the above explanation is all SWIM can think of.
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Old 13-08-2009, 20:52
cra$h cra$h is offline
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Re: Why don't people grow opium in the U.S. and make H here?

It might be economical, but I think it just doesn't cross america's mind to grow their own dope. Heroin outside cities isn't really the drug of choice. marijuana and meth tend to be, and pot has a much higher yeild than poppy plants, so that's the true cash crop out there.

converting morphine to heroin is done in a single simple step. It's just getting acetic anihydride (sp?) is the problem, and that's probably much easier to get in countries like afghanistan.
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Old 13-08-2009, 20:54
Electrolingus Electrolingus is offline
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Re: Why don't people grow opium in the U.S. and make H here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cra$h View Post
Swim thought it was legal to have poppy plants, but once they have an incision on them, swiy's fucked. As far as yeild goes, can't you get a gram of opium out of only a handful of plants? Figguring that you only need a couple pods for tea, you're not going to need a houndred plants for a reasonable amount of opium.
For pod tea, one uses the entire pod. 'Bleeding' and scraping a pod for gum from a live plant actually provides very little as far as overall yield per pod. As previously stated...
Quote:
The opium yield from a single pod varies greatly, ranging from 10 to 100 milligrams of opium gum per pod. (Opium gum yield per capsule correlates very closely with capsule volume.) The average yield of raw opium gum per pod is about 80 milligrams.
For the legality of poppies and poppy growing in the U.S. See this post...
http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sho...35&postcount=5

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great referance and a great read!
  #20  
Old 13-08-2009, 20:56
dyingtomorrow dyingtomorrow is offline
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Re: Why don't people grow opium in the U.S. and make H here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cra$h View Post
converting morphine to heroin is done in a single simple step. It's just getting acetic anihydride (sp?) is the problem, and that's probably much easier to get in countries like afghanistan.
Yah that's what I meant - pretty much anyone can easily come up with the shit to make morphine out of opium at their house, but getting the shit to cook the heroin up makes it a lot more difficult and would probably be the biggest risk to the whole thing.
  #21  
Old 13-08-2009, 21:40
cra$h cra$h is offline
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Re: Why don't people grow opium in the U.S. and make H here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by electrolingus View Post
For pod tea, one uses the entire pod. 'Bleeding' and scraping a pod for gum from a live plant actually provides very little as far as overall yield per pod. As previously stated...[/URL]
If yeilds are, for example, 70mg of opium per pod, that's roughly 7mg of morphine, and to get around 100mg of morphine, it would take roughly 15 plants. That can fit in a square yard, which really isn't much space, but this is can be a single dose of morphine for someone, so to have this on a daily occurance just doesn't seem like it's worth the effort. But I'm not sure of the ratio between mg's of morphine to mg's of heroin, but I'd asume less heroin would be used compared to morphine. Plus method of consumption comes into play. But as far as pod tea would go, this could be something feizable, with a nice little strip of poppies growing along side the house, inconspicuoulsly
  #22  
Old 17-08-2009, 05:31
RhinestoneCowboy RhinestoneCowboy is offline
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Re: Why don't people grow opium in the U.S. and make H here?

since acetic anhydride is hard to come by, it would be in a domestic lab's best interest to perhaps make a different reaction, like that for hydromorphone or oxymorphone.. some other potentially better opiod, and not leave a trail of sketchyness for the govt. to follow.

gathering the opium would be the most difficult part. on top of that.

one could go to mexico, become friends with the cartels, and buy their raw opium, and smuggle that back into the states. that's just another can of worms!
  #23  
Old 17-08-2009, 05:35
cra$h cra$h is offline
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Re: Why don't people grow opium in the U.S. and make H here?

Swim would rather fuck with the DEA than a mexican cartel.... But as for making heroin, one could even use vinegar to make 6MAM, which I'm pretty sure is black tar heroin, which some say is just as if not more potent
  #24  
Old 17-08-2009, 06:11
RhinestoneCowboy RhinestoneCowboy is offline
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Re: Why don't people grow opium in the U.S. and make H here?

swim feels like it hasn't been confirmed that vinegar is a catalyst for 6mam. all of the results and findings on this forum are truly inconclusive. some say it works, others say it doesnt. those that say it works don't have a strong, consistent report of their findings or the methods they've used. anyway, that's beside the point.

swim agrees with the statement that the DEA is probably a safer bet than the mexican cartels, lol. the bottom line: the west coast needs something other than tar. some pure white dope would be a good thing for all the users on the west coast, who have no veins left in their bodies to speak of, besides their neck or their femoral.
  #25  
Old 18-08-2009, 01:57
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Re: Why don't people grow opium in the U.S. and make H here?

Unrelated, but here in Burlington, VT we have poppys growing right outside of the methadone clinic. Someone has a sick sense of humor... and I like it!!

....and I think, how many of the dumb people in my clinic walk by them everyday and don't know what they are!?!?!?

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drugs, growing poppies, heroin manufacturing, making heroin, opium manufacturing, papaver, papaver somniferum, poppy production, somniferum

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