Effects - Grapefruit Juice and Codeine

[drguildo]

I'm sure you've all read the numerous conflicting posts as to whether or not grapefruit juice potentiates codeine. Nearly all of them are from a theoretical standpoint and so I thought it would be a good idea to get people to try it for themselves and post their experiences.

This is far from scientific but it'd be cool if when trying this people could try to keep this as controlled as possible. This means factors such as amount and type of food consumed, time of day, codeine (as well as other drug) dosage etc. should be kept as similar as possible. Ideally the only variable will be whether or not grapefruit juice was consumed. Trying it both ways more than once (alternating would be preferable, I suppose) would also be a good idea.

Please reply with your experiences as well as details of the circumstances under which you did your test (times/amounts/type of juice/etc.). Thanks!

SWIM will be posting their results in the next couple of days, all being well.

[fiveleggedrat]

Swim has had mixed experiences with, not enough to draw a good conclusion on one side or the other.

[drguildo]

Originally Posted by fiveleggedrat

Swim has had mixed experiences with, not enough to draw a good conclusion on one side or the other.

When did SWIY drink the grapefruit juice? I was reading in another thread about somebody who drank some the night before and was sure it had an effect the next morning. This leads me to believe it may need a few hours to kick in.

SWIM will make sure to consume the grapefruit juice a few hours beforehand when experimenting.

[fiveleggedrat]

Anywhere from 30 minutes before to 2 hours before, and Swim did sometimes take after taking the codeine, sometimes at the same time, sometimes 15, 30, 60 minutes in. Across all of those, same thing, inconsistent results.

[drguildo]

Originally Posted by fiveleggedrat

Anywhere from 30 minutes before to 2 hours before, and Swim did sometimes take after taking the codeine, sometimes at the same time, sometimes 15, 30, 60 minutes in. Across all of those, same thing, inconsistent results.

OK, thanks. I guess that's one vote for "no effect".

[fiveleggedrat]

Well, note that I did not specifically vote. There were a few times Swim felt it did work, and that it did potentiate. Swim can't draw a clear Y/N from it all, that it worked sometimes, did nothing others, and sometimes flat-out killed the high. Funny, huh?

[drguildo]

I hear SWIY. That's why I'd like people to post as much additional info as possible so as to possibly pinpoint any external factors that could be having an effect. However if it worked sometimes and didn't others (especially if it wasn't much of a difference) I'd be inclined to think it was something else that was having an effect.

I've just had a horrible thought: potentiator potentiators. Argh!

[Ilsa]

Originally Posted by drguildo

I hear SWIY. That's why I'd like people to post as much additional info as possible so as to possibly pinpoint any external factors that could be having an effect. However if it worked sometimes and didn't others (especially if it wasn't much of a difference) I'd be inclined to think it was something else that was having an effect.

I've just had a horrible thought: potentiator potentiators. Argh!

swim will try it out, but will also say that swim sees no obvious constituents in grapefruit juice that would act as potentiators (swim qualifies that statement as she has done only superficial literature searches and none experiential). the acidity if the juice itself would have no effect--the pH of the stomach is around 1, considering the high concentration of HCl. the vitamin C may have an agonist effect, but from what swim has read there is little research on inhibition/induction by vit c on the enzyme that metabolizes codeine to morphine(swim does know that this conversion is inefficient, about 15-25%, according to various sources)

her,e's a start if the interest arises or rusty memories need refreshing, on codeine metabolism--from id'ing the key enzymes one can search for effects of vit c on those enzymes. swim will look into this if time permits.

[Ontherooftops]

Never had luck with GFJ.

Grapefruit though, the fruit itself (a large one, sometimes two), eaten for breakfast or atleast 3 hours before, seems to work consistently.

[drguildo]

Originally Posted by ilsa

swim will try it out, but will also say that swim sees no obvious constituents in grapefruit juice that would act as potentiators (swim qualifies that statement as she has done only superficial literature searches and none experiential). the acidity if the juice itself would have no effect--the pH of the stomach is around 1, considering the high concentration of HCl. the vitamin C may have an agonist effect, but from what swim has read there is little research on inhibition/induction by vit c on the enzyme that metabolizes codeine to morphine(swim does know that this conversion is inefficient, about 15-25%, according to various sources)

her,e's a start if the interest arises or rusty memories need refreshing, on codeine metabolism--from id'ing the key enzymes one can search for effects of vit c on those enzymes. swim will look into this if time permits.

This is specific to grapefruit juice so I doubt those claiming it as a potentiator reason that it's the vitamin C that's having effect as they might just as well posit orange juice or vitamin C supplements.

The theory goes that grapefruit inhibits CYP3A which results in a decrease of codeine metabolism into norcodeine and, I assume, leaves more available to be converted into morphine. The Wikipedia article on grapefruit juice goes into more detail on this.

As I said in my original post though, I'm not really interested in peoples hypothesis' on why it may or may not work as there is already enough of that on this and other forums. What I'd like to see is people actually trying it and accurately recording their experiences.

Reputation Comments on this post:

good info

[drguildo]

SWIM had the following results yesterday. SWIM used pink grapefruit juice which was from concentrate and did not seem to contain any other ingredients. SWIM has been taking Citalopram 40mg for the past few months and before that a lower dose. They've recently cut down to 20mg.

T-7:30: An glass of grapefruit juice along with some cereal.
T-4:30: Meal.
T-3:30: Another glass of grapefruit juice.
T-0:00: Consumed 4 * 30/500 co-codamol tablets.

SWIM experienced no appreciable difference to codeine taken without grapefruit juice.

SWIM will try consuming the grapefruit juice along with the codeine next time.

drguildo added the next day...

Originally Posted by drguildo

SWIM will try consuming the grapefruit juice along with the codeine next time.

SWIM had a much better experience the following evening.

SWIM did not have much grapefruit juice left so only drank half a glass. This was approximately 15 minutes before again consuming 4 * 30/500 co-codamol tablets.

The usual feelings SWIM gets having taken codeine were definitely more pronounced, however it didn't seem to last any longer.

To try to rule out it being "one of those things" or it being down to the grapefruit juice consumed the previous day, SWIM will take a break for a day or two and try doing the same thing again.

[Ilsa]

Originally Posted by drguildo

This is specific to grapefruit juice so I doubt those claiming it as a potentiator reason that it's the vitamin C that's having effect as they might just as well posit orange juice or vitamin C supplements.

The theory goes that grapefruit inhibits CYP3A which results in a decrease of codeine metabolism into norcodeine and, I assume, leaves more available to be converted into morphine. The Wikipedia article on grapefruit juice goes into more detail on this.

As I said in my original post though, I'm not really interested in peoples hypothesis' on why it may or may not work as there is already enough of that on this and other forums. What I'd like to see is people actually trying it and accurately recording their experiences.

swim will certainly try it. finding a control subject with same height/bbody weight/blah blah blah is a challenge, hypothetically speaking of course.

[drug-bot]

while swims experience is with methadone (its still an opiate) and grape fruit juice he achieved some positive results. he drank a full glass of grape fruit juice(the white kind,dont know if that matters) 2hrs before he took his dose of methadone and again a half hour before his daily 90mg dose and another glass 15 minutes after his dose. and he definetly noticed increase in sedation and the opiate 'i dont give a fuck feeing', but didnt noticed an increase in euporia.

[nutellajunkie]

MY GOD! Jock is as it again! Hes on the Pink grapefruit juices and vodka. He promises me a call to tell me how it is going. However, I doubt he wont remember until the morning! :I

[nutellajunkie]

Jock just said "wow"..

Thats a good thing coming from that miserable old twat

Seriously though, He mentioned that this method has only been done a few times and the dosage and timing of juice actually happens to be important. Im sure there will be more details of this on the site if you look. Or indeed trial and error could be suffice.

Jock hasnt had any problems drinking too much juice, so perhaps concentrate isnt good enough.

[Routemaster Flash]

Originally Posted by drguildo

SWIM had a much better experience the following evening.

SWIM did not have much grapefruit juice left so only drank half a glass. This was approximately 15 minutes before again consuming 4 * 30/500 co-codamol tablets.

The usual feelings SWIM gets having taken codeine were definitely more pronounced, however it didn't seem to last any longer.

To try to rule out it being "one of those things" or it being down to the grapefruit juice consumed the previous day, SWIM will take a break for a day or two and try doing the same thing again.

I'd have thought 15 minutes would be much too little time for the GFJ to be fully absorbed, let alone start affecting liver enzymes, so maybe it worked just by decreasing the pH of your stomach contents? If the codeine is in the form of a salt (which it would definitely be, in co-codamol) then it makes sense that a more acid environment would lead to faster absorption, doesn't it? In other words, it'd probably work just as well with orange juice, coke/lemonade or any other acidic drink. Could be worth testing with one of these, perhaps?

[silentsonnet]

Originally Posted by Routemaster Flash

it makes sense that a more acid environment would lead to faster absorption, doesn't it? In other words, it'd probably work just as well with orange juice, coke/lemonade or any other acidic drink. Could be worth testing with one of these, perhaps?

swim's pet piranha recently discovered this method purely by accident. the piranha had a terrible headache and so took an airborne and 60mg codeine (not cwe: 600mg apap). the piranha wasn't expecting any fantastic results, but lo and behold, she certainly found them!

(do keep in mind though, swim's piranha is only a piranha, and so she is very small.)

[magicmik]

Originally Posted by Ontherooftops

Never had luck with GFJ.

Grapefruit though, the fruit itself (a large one, sometimes two), eaten for breakfast or atleast 3 hours before, seems to work consistently.

Swim is not sure what the difference would be between fruit and juice but swim's colleague may be right.

Look to the great and the good!!!

Hunter. S. Thompson "fear and loathing in Las Vegas" is full of tips if you look hard enough. He is always eating grapefruit. Swim initially thought this might be for vit C to ease of the speed. But maybe it was to potentiate the opiates.

Swims own experiences are non-conclusive.

[RoboCodeine7610]

It definitely does potentiate it.Swim has lots of experience with it nad it's always worked for him.He wrote all the details in the "Codeine potentiators and caffeine inhibitors" thread.