Health - Immediate Health Question I need Help With Involving CWE

[guy16]

SWIM waked and baked and forgot to actually stick the cup in the freezer before pouring it into the filter cup. SWIM then drank it. Anything SWIM should be worried about using 300mg acetaminophen, 15mg caffeine, 8mg codeine phosphate pills?

[drguildo]

Nope.

[guy16]

Ah thanks, crisis averted

[RoboCodeine7610]

What do you mean "nope" you don't even know how many pills he used...If you used too many pills then YEAH YOU DO HAVE SOMETHING TO WORRY ABOUT cause if the filter wasn't good enough then a lot of Acetaminophen could have gone through.
Was the solution cloudy? Just remember that acetaminophen poisoning can take up to 24 to show any symptoms at all...

[drguildo]

Originally Posted by RoboCodeine7610

What do you mean "nope" you don't even know how many pills he used...If you used too many pills then YEAH YOU DO HAVE SOMETHING TO WORRY ABOUT cause if the filter wasn't good enough then a lot of Acetaminophen could have gone through.

Please share your knowledge on the solubility of paracetamol as a function of solution temperature and the corresponding increase in the need for a filter that's "good enough", because as it stands your post offers no more pertinent information than mine did.

I made a number of (IMO reasonable) assumptions in my post: that the filters were effective enough to filter the vast majority of the paracetamol from the solution and that the temperature wasn't high enough to result in a significant increase in the solubility of the paracetamol.

[Routemaster Flash]

All the CWE teks I've seen have said "You don't need to make sure the water's cold, just not actually hot" before commencing filtering. The water solubility of paracetamol is pretty poor at any temperature (worse, the colder it gets, of course) so I think the worst thing that's likely to happen if you don't wait until the solution is chilled is that the paper will quickly clog up and the filtration will take longer than usual, and maybe that you'll end up with *slightly* more paracetamol in the final product than you would otherwise. I can't really see it being a major health risk if you're not doing it every day, especially as the pills only contain 300mg of the stuff per 8mg of codeine (500mg is more usual).

[Euthanatos93420]

assumption abound since the beginning of this thread notably in particular the poster's assumption hat we here on drugs forum are psychic enough to respond with surity without him relating, as robocodeine pointed out, the quantity of pills filtered.

If he used a not so effective filter (but well assume he wasnt a COMPLETE fucktard and could see that there was a good white cake filtered out so he knew he got SOME). and lets say it was fairly warm in his neck of the woods whatever that may be(This time of year Texas is still 90+ degrees). Lets roughly guess that he filtered out HALF the tylenol.

Thats 150mg/pill x# of pills

if he did 10 pills that will be harsh on his liver but won't kill him. If he did 20 he could be looking at possibly death or at least a high probability of cirrhosis (3000mg)
But you know that's just worst case Scenario based on the lack of information.

We will note that he hasn't posted 4 days later. (but also that these are his ONLY two posts)

Case in point assumptions alway make an ass out of you and me.

Ask questions when there are two many variables. Too many stupid people out there. If he can't do the math on his own that he's asking a question like THIS here then it's safe to assume his CWE could have even been more poorly preformed than even I made WCS assumptions just in proving that it's easily possible he could be dead right now.

Case in Point always make sure one has all the fact before confirm another's drug use safety.

[drguildo]

Originally Posted by euthanatos93420

Thats 150mg/pill x# of pills

Where did you get that figure from?

Originally Posted by euthanatos93420

if he did 10 pills that will be harsh on his liver but won't kill him. If he did 20 he could be looking at possibly death or at least a high probability of cirrhosis (3000mg)

3g of paracetamol is nowhere even approaching a dangerous dose! 4g is the maximum (healthy) recommended daily dose. Did you even bother to do a 10 minute search on this topic before chiming in?

drguildo added 6 Minutes and 46 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by Routemaster Flash

All the CWE teks I've seen have said "You don't need to make sure the water's cold, just not actually hot" before commencing filtering.

Exactly.

[RoboCodeine7610]

Originally Posted by drguildo

Please share your knowledge on the solubility of paracetamol as a function of solution temperature and the corresponding increase in the need for a filter that's "good enough", because as it stands your post offers no more pertinent information than mine did.

I made a number of (IMO reasonable) assumptions in my post: that the filters were effective enough to filter the vast majority of the paracetamol from the solution and that the temperature wasn't high enough to result in a significant increase in the solubility of the paracetamol.

Listen and learn from others instead of thinking you know better:
It's not just about the solubility of paracetamol, that's not what matters,
The reazon you coopl down the solution is so that the paracetamol forms larger crystals therefore, gratly decreasing the number of crystals that go through the little holes on the filter.
What I meant by a good enough filter, is that the filter has holes small enough to not let the paracetamol through, even if the crystals are small because the solution was warm.

[drguildo]

Originally Posted by RoboCodeine7610

Listen and learn from others instead of thinking you know better

What? My entire post was an attempt to solicit more information. So what's with the "listen and learn" statement? Did I upset you? You seem to be on the defensive. Why is it me who should be "listening and learning" and not you? Your insistence that I stop thinking I know better is also curious. Does that mean if somebody claims that 2 + 2 = 5 I should accept it as I should not be under the impression that I know better?

It's not just about the solubility of paracetamol, that's not what matters,
The reazon you coopl down the solution is so that the paracetamol forms larger crystals therefore, gratly decreasing the number of crystals that go through the little holes on the filter.

It looks like you don't even know what soluble means. Never mind.

[Euthanatos93420]

Originally Posted by drguildo

Where did you get that figure from?

If you read Swim's post you would know. He made it up based on a WORST CASE SCENARIO ASSUMPTION

3g of paracetamol is nowhere even approaching a dangerous dose! 4g is the maximum (healthy) recommended daily dose. Did you even bother to do a 10 minute search on this topic before chiming in?

Swim knows about tylenol. 4g daily dose? are you fucking shitting me? HELLO CIRRHOSIS!!!

[Destiny_JL]

Originally Posted by euthanatos93420

If you read Swim's post you would know. He made it up based on a WORST CASE SCENARIO ASSUMPTION




Swim knows about tylenol. 4g daily dose? are you fucking shitting me? HELLO CIRRHOSIS!!!

He is right, any chemist will instruct you not to exceed 8 tablets a day - 8x500mg = 4g. So, 4g is the maximum healthy recommended dose.

Many codeine users have taken MUCH more than that in one sitting and although their livers might have taken a beating they certainly aren't dead.

[fiveleggedrat]

Swim gets ill from 2-3gr of APAP. Overdoses, the kind that need medical attention have occured from 2-3grams as well in sensitive individuals. Swim would not attempt anything over 3grams.

The precipitation step of CWE is nonessential, and Swim has never actually done this step ever.

[Euthanatos93420]

Originally Posted by Destiny_JL

He is right, any chemist will instruct you not to exceed 8 tablets a day - 8x500mg = 4g. So, 4g is the maximum healthy recommended dose.

Many codeine users have taken MUCH more than that in one sitting and although their livers might have taken a beating they certainly aren't dead.

Yeah, well, we all know Big Pharma love their dope and hates ours. 4g is a LOT. Certainly hey will PROBABLY live with a 3g dose. But it's ALSO based on a lot of assumptions. Futhermore people HAVE died of APAP.

Poor Assumptions:

1) APAP is taken only if you have a headache.
2)User doesn't use this every day....
3)User has a healthy liver
4)User doesn't consume alchohol

Facts:

In the United States, acetaminophen toxicity has replaced viral hepatitis as the most common cause of acute hepatic failure, and it is the second most common cause of liver failure requiring transplantation in the United States.

http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic819.htm

Sometimes Death is not the worst case scenario. Furthermore...OP has still not posted since.

[drguildo]

Please don't go criticising people for making assumptions when you are pulling them out of your arse left, right and center. The fact is that there is no way in hell that enough paracetamol got through to do any real damage if he filtered it. You seem to think that because the solution wasn't "cold" that it suddenly becomes highly soluble. This is complete nonsense.

Also, constantly implying that it's enough to kill him is fucking stupid seeing as the lethal dose is over 10 grams.

Originally Posted by euthanatos93420

If you read Swim's post you would know. He made it up based on a WORST CASE SCENARIO ASSUMPTION

Indeed.

[fiveleggedrat]

There have been APAP deaths from far less than 10g.

[RoboCodeine7610]

What? My entire post was an attempt to solicit more information. So what's with the "listen and learn" statement? Did I upset you? You seem to be on the defensive. Why is it me who should be "listening and learning" and not you? Your insistence that I stop thinking I know better is also curious. Does that mean if somebody claims that 2 + 2 = 5 I should accept it as I should not be under the impression that I know better?

Sorry man, I didn't mean to criticize you like that but i was pretty drunk at the time and missunderstood your post.

It looks like you don't even know what soluble means. Never mind.

What I meant by that is that since coffee filters don't filter out all the undissolved Acetaminophen because the acetaminophen crystals are smaller than the holes on the filter when the solution is warm, but when the solution is cooled down, larger crystals form, thereby dramatically decreasing the ammount of crystals that go through the holes on the filter.
Sorry again
Robo.

[jon-q]

Swim as gotten his flack-jacket and tin hat on for this post,He figures there's been quite a few REP bullets fired in this thread already,? so in an attempt at restoring forum tranquility and answering the origonal question here goes.
What we do know~A newbie has made a post stating tablets containing 300mg acetaminophen,15mg caffine and 8mg codeine were used in a CWE.
What we don't know~How many tablets were used~The amount of water used~The newbies experience regards extraction(on this swim thinks we can make some assumptions) The method and Type of filter used and most importantly the temperature of the water at the point of extraction.
Given all of the above information and noting that the newbie in question has not posted anything since october the 29th(This may be because Guy16 was simply on a fishing trip?-Guy16 may be in hospital with liver toxicity or worse?-Guy16 is fine and dandy but can't be arsed to send a reply to "ALL" the swimmers that came to try and "HELP" the said person?
Swim will offer this information that might help restore peace and harmony to all conserned!
Solubility of acetaminophen}
100mg~100mls water at 20c
600mg~ " " " " " " " 22c
1.4g-1.45g~ 25c-31c This was the only contradiction swim found when each figure was double checked using at least two seperate source sites..But which ever is correct it shows clearly that the higher the temperature of the water the solubility increase is huge.
Toxicity
Acetaminophen is mainly metabolised in the liver,a small amount is converted by the cytochrome P450-"CYP2A1-CYP2E1" into a toxic substance NAPQi(for short) at low doses this is detoxified and excreated through the kidneys,only so much of this toxin can be "Dealt with" and in large doses it can cause liver and kidney damage and death usually from liver failure.
Doses as low as 6g can be toxic in a "NORMAL" person and Doses of "10g-15g" can be lethal=Liver failure can take place 12-30+hrs after the initial dose.
Normal=Asumes average CYP2D6 metabolism,No alcohol or potentiators e.t.c
SwiQ hopes this helps out in answering Guy16's question???????
No bullets please~regards swi.....Q
Info~ http://www.drugbank.ca/drugs/DB00316
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracetamol
http://www.leonline.com/introduction.html
http://www.erowid.org/pharms/acetami...minophen.shtml

[RaverHippie]

Yeah let's try and keep discussion more harm-reduction based instead of focusing on nit-picking each other's posts. Solubility of all things in a non gaseous state increases with temperature. Therefore more apap was consumed then was necessary. Since the OP never even posted on this thread after the first one it's safe to assume everything went fine.

EDIT: I see jon's post was similar to mine. Glad other's noticed the same thing.

[Routemaster Flash]

I think it's probably worth pointing out that this guideline figure of 4g per day should be take to imply normal therapeutic use, i.e. four 1g doses nicely spaced out through the day (morning, midday, afternoon and before bed, let's say) - NOT all four grams taken in one go, as in the case of someone necking a load of co-codamol pills to get high. Or, worse still, a (severely) botched CWE, since the stuff will already be in solution and will therefore be absorbed that much more quickly.

So just because someone can take 4 x 1g every day without compromising their liver, that does not mean someone taking 4g in one go every day is also going to be fine. Doing it now and then is probably OK, but I wouldn't want to risk it without giving my liver a chance to recuperate in between, especially as I drink too.