N.A. or not N.A?: that is the question. For or against 12-step recovery?

[Moonage Daydream]

Maybe SWIM is stereotypically British and reticent but she does find the whole sharing (and hugging, argh!) with total strangers very hard. Even though everyone is doing it. When swim tried to when giving up amphetamine habit number 2, she enjoyed the coffee after a lot more (maybe cause it involved consuming a stimulant even if a weak legal one ha ha) as there was less confessional atmos, less structure. The higher power thing she finds difficult as well, this is only personal opinion but I think it is a way of absolving yourself of responsibility. And the taint of religion (yes I know it doesn't have to mean that mean that) is difficult. I hope this doesn't come across wrongly, i only mean it from my pov.
it obviously works for many people out there, just too uptight maybe? And so respond better one to one as a bit shy with new people really

[Spare Chaynge]

Swim has met plently of people in aa and most of his friends are from aa. Even his girlfriend has 4 1/2 years clean and sober in the program.The one things he has noticed is that most not all, and even the ones with 5 plus years have one thing in common. Their sobriety is dependent on a couple of things. If you take the program away from them they become "restless irritable and discontent." God help them if they loose their so called feeling that they are spiritually connected. This is not what swim wants for his life. He can live with out a happyness maintence program thank you very much! Also it seems as a lot of people in the program never learn to deal with issues on their own. They have to talk things out with people or sponser. Its just not what swim views as a healthy way to live.

But hey if you fucked your life and mind up beyond repair why not.

Furthermore, swim is sure the big book says that none of the above will happen if you work the program correctly. The communist manifesto said nothing about oppression poverty and famine but it happened. Just an example of something that also looks good on paper but rarely works out like planned. Just like AA!

But please listen to the 35% of people who happened to work the program ,just at the point when they decided that they truly had enough of drugs and attributed their success to the program, or be smart ,ignore their claims of faulty causality. and realize that you need to just grow up make a choice and a commitment to stay clean and sober.

[chillinwill]

Originally Posted by Spare Chaynge

Also it seems as a lot of people in the program never learn to deal with issues on their own. They have to talk things out with people...

Red Rock agrees with most of what SWIY said except for this part. He has found that by talking to others about their problems, it helps him with his own. If he holds in stuff, it just leads to more feelings of depression, anxiety, etc. He believes that by talking things out is a more healthy way of dealing with issues than by using.

On another note, Red Rock is sincerely glad for anyone that has had success in the program. More power to you. He wasn't one of those people but has found his OWN way of being happy in life and living opiate free. He has obtained all the promises that the big book and whatnot have promised without the program so it can be done. AA/NA is not the only way just like the way Red Rock does it is not the only way and in fact, would probably fail for many other people. The only way now that Red Rock's life could be returned to his old prior ways was if he made a conscientious decision to return to opiates. He has a choice today and is not powerless anymore. This is a key difference in the way he works HIS program and the way AA/NA want him to work their program.

[ATWA]

First of all nobody is powerless over anything that they have a choice as to whether they do or do not put something into their body. This is a lie. Second of all Na and AA construct a convenient God that serves their purpose and are indifferent to whether or not God even really exists or if it exists then if it has the attributes they assign it. So it really is not a question if NA or AA works. It is a question of at what expense? Living a lie? Well if a person is willing to do that then I suppose it is OK for them. But all people should think rationally enough to understand what they are getting into.

[Spare Chaynge]

Originally Posted by Spare Chaynge

Swim has met plently of people in aa and most of his friends are from aa. Even his girlfriend has 4 1/2 years clean and sober in the program.The one things he has noticed is that most not all, and even the ones with 5 plus years have one thing in common. Their sobriety is dependent on a couple of things. If you take the program away from them they become "restless irritable and discontent." God help them if they loose their so called feeling that they are spiritually connected. This is not what swim wants for his life. He can live with out a happyness maintence program thank you very much!

Maybe this is why so called addicts in the program find it so easy to believe in the disease model. Once a person relapses in the program all hell breaks loose because for their entire clean period they were dependent on a program that they can no longer participate in . Once out of the program and back on alcohol or drugs they fail to control their alcohol and drugs because they failed to learn how to be independently happy and content on their own and as a result they are now using drugs to cover up their discontent and irritability.

Where as the person who learned to be independently happy on his own has a much better chance of returning to a Normy state of affairs. He learned to be happy and content with life on his own and allowed for his neurotransmitters to return to normal.


Just a thought on why people in aa fuck up so miserably when they relapse. Or maybe it is because they have to put so so much effort into something as small as staying sober that they relapse hard...

Either way the relapse of any former addict is dangerous

[Horser]

SWIMs 2 times at NA were ones he would never repeat. (Oxy-moron or NO!) It's humiliating, elitist and worst of ALL BORING!!!! SWIM knows Members that have been clean for 10 years but keeep coming back. that would be OK, IF they mentored Newbies but most Don't. They use it as a Social Club. In SWIMS experience these type members think the Sun shines out of their Arses and anything they say is right and just! IF you slip they put you down, if you question some aspects of the 12 stop{sic} Your a Heretic and Ostracized! (In SWIMS HO). SWIM started taking Pot and Alcohol at age 13 and SWIM is Mighty offended to be constantly told He had the Emotional State Maturety of a 13 Year-oldSWIM was Ostriched for sleeping around the Group but that's another story and more often done by members SWIM dislikes the Most! (SWIM is more than happy to put his Head in a bucket off Sand when he sounds hypocritical!)
Nope, SWIM has found that "IF" SWIM needs to take a break, SWim will call in sick for week and get a few botles of Val and sleep it off. Nupppp! SWIM will not go back! And SWIM NEVER LIES!

Horser added 7 Minutes and 17 Seconds later...

And SWIM hated hearing that same old Joke, told at least once every 3 meetings......."B4 I came here I thought My ONLY problem wiff Drugs was I couldn't get enough of them!" ...ARRRRGGGHHHHH!!!!

Oh, and if any one says SWIM has the Emotional developement of a 13 year-old again, SWIM will get his big brother to Beat them UP!

[nate81]

I've come to notice that the AA program is drowning in myths and ideas and these have seeped into the views of Americans. Helplessness is a myth. God will help you is a myth.

Another annoying myth of AA is that all drug use equals drug abuse or drug misuse or drug overuse. This is an absolute fallacy that falls apart like a dry sand castle. AA will tell an addict that they have a disease, they are unable to stop on their own. They tell the addict that because of the disease they will be unable to ever take a drug again without plunging into excess. The addict can't take any drug without becoming a jerk and pissing off family friends and the law. If this is true, then why are most AA meetings ripe with the stink of cigarettes and coffee? They look at forums such as this one and think "all those people are deep in addiction" but this is an incredibly shallow view. Of course, hearing this an AA believer would say that this is excuse making to feed addiction.This is so deep in the american psyche that addiction qualifies one for a few disability benefits such as having college paid for in some states. With the requirement that one continues attending AA.

My point is that AA members and their leaders are in that program so deep they believe so strongly in their own methods that they can't imagine someone else having success in any other way. Whether it is fear of being replaced or jealousy or zealousness or a little of all of those I'm not sure.

[miffy]

I know it works for some people, and good luck to them. . .

It didn't work for swim, though - it was the whole group-hug thing that did it. . . like being buried alive in an 'orrible squirming mound of sweaty junkies. . . eeeurg! Gave swim the fear, he went right out and scored. . .

Swim also didn't like the way that they seemed to label all drug use a negative thing - some of swim's drug use has led to very positive experiences - and the way that they were so certain that anyone who uses drugs has something wrong with them, that drug-use is a personality problem that needs to be erased and replaced. Replaced with an addiction to NA, instead. Swim's mates who got into it were just as bad with it as swim with his smack. . . swim once went away for a week surfing with a girlfriend who was an NA member . . . when they got to their destination, first things they did - swim had to score some brown, swim's missus had to score an NA meeting. . .

Like ATWA, Swim also didn't like the way they wanted to admit that his life was out of control, and that the drug-use came from a part of him of which he was not in control. . . Maybe to some extent swim feels that his addictions are beyond his control, but swim took the decisions that got him here in the first place, and swim can, if he chooses, put the needle down, get sick, and get clean. . . claiming to be powerless is an excuse for weakness, something swim does to avoid taking responsibility for the choices that lead to addiction. Swim is not powerless at all, swim has a choice what swim puts in his scrawny lil body.

And, if there really is a higher power out there (Which I don't believe for a moment) - I find it harder still to believe that that higher power gives a hard, constipated opiate poo whether or not swim has another hit. . .

(The above is what's true for swim - and is not intended as a criticism of those who are into NA. . . I respect anyone who can stay clean after having had a habit, regardless of how they choose to do it).

Reputation Comments on this post:

thanks for adding

[yaba]

Swim doesn't have any experience with the AA or NA.
There are two people who he knows, one old football hooligan and alcoholic he was a active member of combat 18 (I don't agree with that !) He is old now got into heroine seek'ed help and is now a Bible basher... (no offense intended)

The other one is someone who helped hiding a murder victim.. And a drug/alcohol addict.. And he is in a monastery now..

I wouldn't do it !! But they seem happy.. And I wont criticize them for it.

Brought up non religious so wouldn't go for it. Each to there own.

[Fight Club]

If you accept nothing else about 12-step programs and their beliefs, doesn't it still make sense that a 12-step meeting is a great place to meet and make friends with other people who are trying to get clean and sober?

Regardless of whether you believe in God, the steps, or anything else that is a part of 12-step philosophy, you stand a better chance of staying away from drugs and alcohol is you occupy your time and surround yourself with other individuals practicing activities other than drinking and using.

FC

Reputation Comments on this post:

great point.

[chillinwill]

Fight Club,

While this may be true, Red Rock has found that a lot of people there aren't serious about their recovery and are just court ordered there. They could care less if they stopped using or not. For Red Rock, he tends to gravitate towards others that aren't serious about recovery (at least while he was in NA) and this in part contributed to some of his relapses while in the program. Also, if one were to occupy their time just to go to meetings to make friends and nothing else, a lot of members there might frown on that because they might think they are just trying to socialize and are not serious about recovery. This has been Red Rock's experience though. If one were to follow this suggestion, they best make sure they stick to people that have black key tags and what not especially if this newcomer is very vulnerable.

[Fight Club]

^^^^
All great points - well taken. NIK's first NA meeting was 75% court-slip attendees. He put as much distance between that meeting and himself as he could. If they all were like that, however, he doubts he would have stuck with it.

He currently attends a 7 AM AA meeting with lots of sobriety, and a relatively tolerant attitude towards his cocaine addiction, even though he never really had a problem with alcohol. He supplements that with an occaisional NA or CA meeting, but only select select meetings with sobriety and optional attendees.

Diffferent groups tend to have different degrees of acceptance regarding "working the steps". Some think its all about that ( a big book meeting I go to on Fridays, for example), and some could care less.

FC

[ai]

okay.

swim is about as hardline athiest as they come and has over a year now (yippie!) in NA. Crack cocaine was swim's addiction.

Needless to say I have my issues with NA/AA but you would be suprised with what they are.

I have no problem with the "religious" aspects of NA/AA because I know for a fact you dont' have to believe in god to stay clean. Hell swim is clean and doesn't believe in god. No one can come up to me and tell me anymore convert or die! I would hve been stuck dead a long time ago. I do believe swim was powerless over crack, but the longer swim stays away from the drug the more power they regain. swim has some power over their life today. Now, if swim started getting back into addictive behaviors, bad habits, and went back out and used, swim would become powerless again.

I know peole that got clean, that were much worst than swim, my uncle being one of them, clean 19 years now, without using aything but will power. I have found that more thana nything swim likes the socializing with people they can relate to. swim can talk tos omeone and tell them about the raining 8ball dream they had a month ago and not be looked at like a silly crackhead fuck.

My issues with NA/AA are that they take a 30's approach to something when we have the knowledge now to do much, much more. they are so stuck in their traditions that they are hindering recovery!

I'm a big health nutt. I bodybuild so I always watch what i eat and I know alot about nutrition. I know that sweets sugars and caffine are not good for a recovering addict, for various reasons, mainly becuase they are flat out unhealthy and being drunks and addicts we are already malnutioned, yet they serve cake, cookies, coffee and sugar at every meeting. I always bring in a pepsi max. I am the guy witht he pepsi in the meeting. no one talks about exercise. I love myself. I like looking at myself. I treat myself with respect, and becuase of that, swim is less likely to smoke crack now. I have a good friend that's 450 pounds in the program and he can never get past 4 o rso months, becuase he will get some time, something will happen, he starts to eat more and more again, and then he wonders why he feels bad and goes to smoke crack. he doesn't like himself at a very basic level. eating healthy and exercising is overall good and htere is no negative effects to it when it comes to recovery, yet doesn't get talked about.

you get overly religious people that try to shove their religion down your throat but that will happen anywhere you go, and it doesn't bother me. I dont' aruge with people, I dont' have a need to. I'm comfortable withw hat works for me, i don't have to prove myself to anyone.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Very interesting input about Atheism and NA attendance, and NAs inflexibility.

[Spare Chaynge]

One of the most harmful philosophies taught by the 12 step programs is the idea that everything in swiys life is conditional. They would have you believe that you have friends,family,support,happiness ect only because you are sober and participate in the program.

They would have you believe that everything you have in life, is conditional. This is obviously an extremely negative idea. If swim believes that his family, friends, house, and everything else in his life is conditional this could lead to some serious psychological issues. Coupled with the idea that a drug is a drug ,and the slippery slope fallacy, major issues could result. For example, swim truly believes that everything in his life is there with the condition that he stays 100% clean and sober. He also believes that a drug is a drug for example heroin is the same as marijuana. He then also believes that once he drinks one beer then necessarily he has to drink a lot more. You now have an individual who just drank one drink. He believes he has lost everything in his life. He also believes that he can not control his so called "disease" any more. In addition he might as well do heroin, because a drug is a drug. The result is many people doing what they truly believe. Screwing their life up beyond repair.

In a perfect world only those people who should never use anything again end up in 12 step programs. In reality many unfortunate individuals end up being forced by some sort of authority or by the fact that recovery programs other than 12 step ones are almost non existent.


This might seem silly but the thought reform used by rehabs and 12 step programs to "help people" are extremely psychologically harmful.

In Swims person opinion it is in your own person interest to avoid any 12 step program.


Abusing drugs is a choice.

Reputation Comments on this post:

12. Steps a questionable and need a reformation! Discussion is the 1. Step!

[Dickon]

This is a valid point of view in some sense. For many, well-being is contingent on being abstinent, as not everyone has the full ability to use or drink in moderation. The thing you say about an attitude of the good in one's life being contingent on continued participation in the programme is prevalent, at least it was when cat was an NA member. Frankly, my cat found this dogmatic aspect of the NA programme, or how NA members interpreted it, erroneous. The wiser and more enlightened ones new that NA was not "the only way", but many people seemed to think it was. This attitude was pushed on new-comers and could be off-putting.

The idea that there is no difference between a lapse and a relapse, and taking a drink is somehow equivalent to taking a shot of heroin is again not without problems. I read somewhere (probably in Empathy for The Devil - I've reviewed this in the book reviews) that NA participation results in deeper relapses but fewer of them. So the positive side of this world-view is that people relapse less, but once they do they find it harder to stop.

I think for many, especially those seriously addicted with little or no experience of recovery, the benefits of the 12-steps outweigh the risks. Like anything it life, it is what you make of it. If as you say, Spayre Change, "abusing drugs is a choice" (a whole thorny issue unto itself!) then surely what you choose to take from an N.A. (or A.A. or similar) meeting is also a matter of choice. One is not bound to believe everything one hears!

For those that don't know, my cat has spent 3 1/2 years or so in N.A. in 2 chunks of time, and is currently clean for 7 months without using N.A. (but nonetheless choosing a total-abstinence based approach). Cat would go to N.A. in a heart-beat if things got to the point where he felt he needed to, and might one day go simply for the fellowship.

It works for many, but is not the only way.

Dickon

[Spare Chaynge]

"I think for many, especially those seriously addicted with little or no experience of recovery, the benefits of the 12-steps outweigh the risks."


swim agrees. Those who have spent most their life's struggling with addiction probably will benefit from 12 step programs. for swim and many many others though who have been forced into 12 step programs he has suffered as a result.

swim is constantly revising his ideas. thanks dickon for remaining to level headed with swim.

now about the issue of taking or leaving aa philosophies swim does not think it is so easy. Swim believes that the method they use to re educate people does not allow people to simply take it or leave it. If they do try to leave it, it is always their some how still.


in response to spucky.. swim did this revision http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sho...771#post487771

[Spucky]

Swim think the main-problem of the NA`s is the Dynamic of the Group!
If there is only one Person in a Key-Position (the typical Alpha-Male) with a wrong behavior the whole Session is ad absurdum!
They need a Reformation, like swim wrote already.
Maybe a Supervision once every 8 Weeks.

My loved Statistic`s showed that the NA`s still have a legitimation.

Reputation Comments on this post:

good point, revision is a good argument.

[thebige]

Swim has never been to a meeting.......
But from Spuckys post it sounds like they give control over the meeting to someone that entered the program...but now magically has the knowledge to dictate the course of the discussion? Or do they offer separate training for people that do this? Swim feels that,that alone could be a problem,if true.

[Spucky]

Afair. there are no real discussions at the 12.Step Programs!
People just tell what they are doing.
People in the Key-Position just take care that everyone can speak until he/she is finished!

[Nature Boy]

The 12 steps are a useful crutch for those naive enough to buy into it. Personally, it would never work for SWIM in the unfortunate event of a drug addiction because of all the religious connotations and the fact that there's absolutely ZERO evidence to suggest that it's anymore effective than any of the hundreds of ways someone might kick addiction. I think he'd prefer to attempt psychedelic therapy i.e. using LSD or ibogaine to kill off the proverbial demons.

[Spare Chaynge]

swim thinks that people view it as a cult because of accidental beliefs/practices.
For example the literature says nothing about a lot of things people have issues with. Yet almost every aa group says you must get a sponsor.

sponsors are former drug addicts. they might have 1 year clean and sober. why take advice from some one who fucked up his own life. If you end up getting a sponsor some of the time they really fuck with you emotionally.

one sponsor of swims told him that if he did not do something exactly this way that he was going do die or go to jail. This can be psychologically harmful to some one who just quit heroin.


Other issues are the "dry drunk". This is a person who used another method of recovery to kick his addiction. They have not truly recovered according to the average aa member. Most aa members believe in the dry drunk thing, some do not.

This is similar to what actual cults do. If a member drops out they say he was unable to accept the truth and as a result he is doomed to a miserable fate.

[ex-junkie]

well considering most of these meetings are held in churches, associated with churches, they have a way of discouraging people from attending when they have a slip up. these people should not be pushed away imo. its not even like theyre pushed away, more forced away, religious people have a way with coercing people to behave, front in a particular manner, and lump them with guilt when they muck up. instill the fear of god into them until their conscience gets the better of them.

but hey, everyone mucks up. when it comes to the crunch, jesus never looked down on anyone with leprosy, he never would have turned an addict away in need, and he wouldnt have made them feel guilty, let alone instill any fear into them. everything jesus taught was based on love and acceptance- after all he was a perfect human.

how these people can twist a religion into something that suits them (not the masses), just astonishes me.

edit: the 12 step programs are not essential to quit drugs. swim quit methadone at home by herself, looking after a 2 year old, with $800+ cash on her at the time. anybody can look within themselves and seek help from a greater power, the power is within yourself, and all you need to do is ask... call it meditation, call it positive affirmations, call it religion, whatever... you dont need to go to a church or be involved with a church body in order to achieve the same results.

[Richard_smoker]

all valid points brought up here lately...

i have to insert my own thoughts here--mostly reverberating previous posts, but hopefully clarifying some issues for those who are unsure what to think of the 12-Steps in regard to their own drug abuse/addictions.

Although i have stated several times that active participation in this forum was the most effective, reinforcing, daily exercise that allowed my pig to understand the changes in his body, mind, personality, sleep-habits, etc, the very existence of AA/NA/12-Step programs and their literature (available online) was VITALLY IMPORTANT to my pig's initial realization and understanding that sobriety WAS a possibility...

...in other words, while living in the depths of addiction, it is almost universal that the addict becomes very jaded with the external world, and living OUTSIDE of denial is almost impossible during the seductive phases of addiction and it continues on into the active addiction.

Without having "The Big Book" online to read of others' experiences and without having the 12-Steps as a general background to the idea of quitting, my pig would have never even realized that quitting was an option for him. -DICK

[chillinwill]

Originally Posted by Richard_smoker

Although i have stated several times that active participation in this forum was the most effective, reinforcing, daily exercise that allowed my pig to understand the changes in his body, mind, personality, sleep-habits, etc, the very existence of AA/NA/12-Step programs and their literature (available online) was VITALLY IMPORTANT to my pig's initial realization and understanding that sobriety WAS a possibility...

Red Rock agrees with Dick's pig on this one. The 12 steps and the NA/AA program is what initially allowed Red Rock to see that he had a very, very serious problem and that he needed to do something to change. Although he didn't use the 12 steps or NA/AA meetings to get clean and sober, he did take some parts of the program that he liked such as one day/one hour/one minute at a time when he had to. By following the parts of NA/AA he believed in and by creating his own program of recovery as well as using this forum, Red Rock has been able to achieve over a year of sobriety now. This forum was probably the biggest contribution to his recovery as he met many people on here that were willing to help him when he was struggling. In fact, he had a recent bout with alcohol several months ago where he had to enlist the help of another fellow member to talk to him about all of this.

Anyways, NA/AA can build a good foundation for someone new to recovery and it can indeed help many individuals achieve sobriety and recover. There are also other methods that might benefit the individual more so than any other method. A person wanting to achieve sobriety must find what works for them and stick with it as what might work for Red Rock might not work for that person.

[Spare Chaynge]

This post is an opinion and not to be taken to seriously or as fact.. it is also biased, exaggerated. but is also what swim truly believes from his personal experience with AA and NA.

Swim feels that if aa was not there some other organization would be in its place. The fact that no other organization exist to the extent that 12 step programs do ,show what kind of monopoly 12 step programs have. Swim assures yall that 12 step programs did not get this monopoly through ethical means. Basically, a few got sober and then started up rehabs. Instead of allowing patients the ability to choose what ever method they wanted, aa presents them with false dilemmas and scare tactics.

Further, many who got sober in aa went to hospitals to find people who were literally on their death beds. They then presented them with the same scare tactics and false dilemmas. You tell somebody who literally just allmost died that this is the only way then of course they are going to take it(considering that their reasoning skills are shit). Swim could of convinced himself that the song bike by pink floyd was the key to sobriety if he could go back in time.

This would not be a problem if other groups came and presented their methods. The virtual monopoly has not allowed this though. Who wants to come up with a different way when all you will be is a "dry drunk"

Don't let the wolf in sheeps clothing fool you. In addition, the correlation between getting sober and aa is false. AA , plain and simple is harmful to most individuals.


In the end only a couple of people perpetuate the cycle of bullshit called AA. These are referred to as the old timers. They get sponses and make them perpetuate the program. They call this service work. The "old timers" tell them that they have to do it or they will relapse end up in jail or dead.

To put it simply you are a pawn in aa. You basically help "old timers" mentally rape individuals.