Effects - H dose to Suboxone dose equivalent? Time till SWIM can shoot up?

[dyingtomorrow]

So SWIM is down to 1 mg of Suboxone (hasn't done H in 3 weeks, good God!), and finally got enough for about 3/4 gram of dope (assume average street purity). SWIM is so fucking excited cuz as soon as he can he's gonna head to the city and cop. SWIM was hyped about this morning but the girls hes staying with took the car and didn't let him drive her to work today (broke his fucking heart, SWIM should be shooting up by now) so he just snorted 8 mgs of suboxone instead and is hoping to get high (SWIM'll let ya know if it works, doubt it).

So here was SWIM's plan. Take his suboxone early morning, wait 24 hours, get some dope for the next morning. 24 hours later shoot about 1/4 a gram. Shoot the cotton at night. Wait for his girl to go to work, and shoot the other 2/4 ths the next morning.

SWIM is assuming he will get a rush off the 2/4 ths shot, but do you think the first 1/4 gram SWIM does will give him a rush, being on only 1 mg of shite-boxone?

3 fucking weeks man without dope on this disgusting orange bullshit. This is hell. Any help would be appreciated.

dyingtomorrow added 26 Minutes and 21 Seconds later...

Holy shit... okay SWIM has been on suboxone on and off for a long time, and has never got anything close to a "high" from it, no matter how much he snorted, shot up, etc.

Like SWIM said he is down to 1 mg, and just snorted 8 mgs out of frustration for having his dope copping plan ruined. SWIM is actually kind of buzzing from the suboxone!!! Wow, didn't think it was possible.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Self incrimination in third paragraph. Please go back and edit this

[Junkhead23]

So SWIY are going to really try to cut the H out?

[dyingtomorrow]

Cut the H out?

No SWIM never wanted to stop doing H. Unlike most people here apparently, SWIM's life was 24 years of hell before he found H. It was like finding himself and discovering life, love, and the desire to actually do something and be a productive member of society the 2 years he was on it, so it's not something he curses as evil.

[Solinari]

What happened to...

"But you have to realize the whole rest of your life is going to be a horrible struggle with H demons (or angels I'd consider them) screaming in your ear to get some H, and it will never let up. It's like being permanently disabled. SWIM knows it will never be better..."

Certainly sounds like a real hoot.

Most people here with a drug problem know it's a destructive influence on their life and that it has probably caused way more problems than it solved. I can tell you one thing, NO one can be a productive member of society while under the influence of heroin. People under the influence just don't realise how they actually come across to other sober people, they think they are fine but in reality they are not. How can becoming homeless and running around on the streets for 2 years be productive?

People soon tire of running about everyday trying to score smack, it's really just a complete load of bollocks and my fiend for one will never ever go back to it by choice and it IS a choice.

[dyingtomorrow]

OMFG ... SWIM just shot up a second ago for the first time in 3 weeks ... it was HEAVEN. Thank you God! SWIM is on 1mg of suboxone, waited 24 hours since his last dose, and only shot $5 worth of H, still got a rush and is feeling great. Can't believe his tolerance is so low but SWIM LOVES IT!

Originally Posted by Solinari

What happened to...

"But you have to realize the whole rest of your life is going to be a horrible struggle with H demons (or angels I'd consider them) screaming in your ear to get some H, and it will never let up. It's like being permanently disabled. SWIM knows it will never be better..."

Certainly sounds like a real hoot.

Most people here with a drug problem know it's a destructive influence on their life and that it has probably caused way more problems than it solved. I can tell you one thing, NO one can be a productive member of society while under the influence of heroin. People under the influence just don't realise how they actually come across to other sober people, they think they are fine but in reality they are not. How can becoming homeless and running around on the streets for 2 years be productive?

People soon tire of running about everyday trying to score smack, it's really just a complete load of bollocks and my fiend for one will never ever go back to it by choice and it IS a choice.

I'm flattered you have my posts memorized. If you actually look to their meaning though you'll see they are consistent, so your little "What happened to ..." is the only thing that doesn't make sense in the context.

H can and does make many people more productive for a myriad of reasons and in a myriad of ways. The only reason it is destructive is because it was illegalized here in the 1920s by a racist ass law designed as a way to discriminate against the west coast Chinese immigrants (and containing other prohibitions like marijuana, intended to be a means to discriminate against Mexicans and African Americans) Heroin is no worse a drug than alcohol, and would be many times safer than alcohol if it was similarly regulated, but instead it was just made illegal (with malicious, illogical intent) to do and THAT'S what caused all the problems revolving around it and made it expensive.

[chillinwill]

Originally Posted by dyingtomorrow

OMFG ... SWIM just shot up a second ago for the first time in 3 weeks ... it was HEAVEN. Thank you God! SWIM is on 1mg of suboxone, waited 24 hours since his last dose, and only shot $5 worth of H, still got a rush and is feeling great. Can't believe his tolerance is so low but SWIM LOVES IT!


I'm flattered you have my posts memorized. If you actually look to their meaning though you'll see they are consistent, so your little "What happened to ..." is the only thing that doesn't make sense in the context.

H can and does make many people more productive for a myriad of reasons and in a myriad of ways. The only reason it is destructive is because it was illegalized here in the 1920s by a racist ass law designed as a way to discriminate against the west coast Chinese immigrants (and containing other prohibitions like marijuana, intended to be a means to discriminate against Mexicans and African Americans).Heroin is no worse a drug than alcohol, and would be many times safer than alcohol if it was similarly regulated, but instead it was just made illegal (with malicious, illogical intent) to do and THAT'S what caused all the problems revolving around it and made it expensive

I'm not too sure I agree with your

Heroin is no worse a drug than alcohol, and would be many times safer than alcohol if it was similarly regulated, but instead it was just made illegal (with malicious, illogical intent) to do and THAT'S what caused all the problems revolving around it and made it expensive

This is a topic for another thread and don't want to strain too much from the original topic but alcohol is already legal and regulated, yet, we still have all these problems with alcohol. You honestly think that legal heroin would be safer than alcohol if it was regulated. Think about the people that get hooked on the legal H and then want to stop, then relapse, and OD because they don't realize about tolerance. Sure, that already happens today but just by having H regulated, does not mean it would be safer than alcohol. It would be safer than most drugs that are illegal now due to purity issues, dose, etc if it were legal. Just my two cents

[Solinari]

Memorised? No, but i did recall roughly what was said since it included something about suicide which definitely doesn't sound like life with heroin is any better than life before.

As for being productive whilst having a heroin habit and probably under the influence more often than not, that is just complete nonsense. Whilst under the influence of heroin, judgement is severely impaired and if you realise it or not people will know if someone is under the influence, they might not be able to say what it is but they will know something isn't quite right, take it from someone that knows from personal experience and other friends.

Now if someone is not under the influence then they will probably be lethargic, yawning and just dying to get away from work because they know they have half a bag waiting at home. Rattling (dope sick as some in the US call it) or under the influence, either way you will be far from productive.

I would be the first one to agree to decriminalisation of heroin and for it to be regulated and safe, how to go about this is not something i can answer. I don't agree that problems related to heroin use stem from it being illegal, it certainly doesn't help and may even play a large part in the problems. I would definitely agree that a lot of health problems related to heroin use are due to the illicit nature of heroin and clean, sterile and known strength would go a long long way to prevent problems. The bottom line is daily heroin use IS a problem and when my fiend did the daily hunt for over 4 years on and off (mostly on), he can honestly say it was mostly hell and he would never go back to it. Does he still use? Yes, now and again but all in all it's just not worth it and a waste of time and money. My fiend wasted 7 years, probably more if he's completely honest, 7 years he could have done a lot of things and if he could do it all over again he would probably give drugs a miss, even cannabis etc.

Anyway, i went a bit off topic but i can't understand anyone who would imply that heroin addiction can make someone's life better no matter how bad it was before it can only compound problems and even bring out underlying problems too.

[dyingtomorrow]

Originally Posted by Solinari

Memorised? No, but i did recall roughly what was said since it included something about suicide which definitely doesn't sound like life with heroin is any better than life before.

As for being productive whilst having a heroin habit and probably under the influence more often than not, that is just complete nonsense. Whilst under the influence of heroin, judgement is severely impaired and if you realise it or not people will know if someone is under the influence, they might not be able to say what it is but they will know something isn't quite right, take it from someone that knows from personal experience and other friends.

Now if someone is not under the influence then they will probably be lethargic, yawning and just dying to get away from work because they know they have half a bag waiting at home. Rattling (dope sick as some in the US call it) or under the influence, either way you will be far from productive.

I would be the first one to agree to decriminalisation of heroin and for it to be regulated and safe, how to go about this is not something i can answer. I don't agree that problems related to heroin use stem from it being illegal, it certainly doesn't help and may even play a large part in the problems. I would definitely agree that a lot of health problems related to heroin use are due to the illicit nature of heroin and clean, sterile and known strength would go a long long way to prevent problems. The bottom line is daily heroin use IS a problem and when my fiend did the daily hunt for over 4 years on and off (mostly on), he can honestly say it was mostly hell and he would never go back to it. Does he still use? Yes, now and again but all in all it's just not worth it and a waste of time and money. My fiend wasted 7 years, probably more if he's completely honest, 7 years he could have done a lot of things and if he could do it all over again he would probably give drugs a miss, even cannabis etc.

Anyway, i went a bit off topic but i can't understand anyone who would imply that heroin addiction can make someone's life better no matter how bad it was before it can only compound problems and even bring out underlying problems too.

I'd agree with you that it doesn't make most people's lives better, but I'd also say that that is mostly because of it's cost and the fact that it's illegal. The "crappiness" associated with people on heroin I'd attribute to the fact that it is constantly agitating and stressful to be in perpetual fear of jail, and/or to have financial problems buying it. Especially years and years of that intense stress wears on people.

I already told SWIM's story in another thread, but I'll resummarize since I guess you didn't catch that thread about why H does help some people.

SWIM's been horribly depressed since adolescence, with terrible insomnia. Over a decade of only being able to sleep every couple days when SWIM would finally totally crash from exhaustion. Sometimes spending a week in bed. Went to doctor after doctor. Tried one crazy synthetic weird ass drug after the other. SSRIs, MAO inhibitors, wellbutrin, all kinds of ritalin. Every kind of herbal/alternate/over the counter drug. SWIM got heavily into weightlifting for 5 years because people said that would work.

Nothing. SWIM is not exactly your average person either, as he tested off the chart on the "officially administered" IQ test he took when he was younger, and tested in the top 99% of every government/school IQ/type test he had to take. There's definitely something different about his brain. SWIM just thought about killing himself every day, but moped along because he could party, have sex and do drugs a couple times a week which at least balanced some of the pain out.

SWIM went to law school after college, because unlike most things, SWIM could get away with being crazy and having tons of downtime in law school. Whereas other students would study a 100 hours a week all semester, SWIM just almost never went to class, emailed the professors all kinds of excuses, and read the entire book for each class in a day or so, roughly 3 days before each final. SWIM got A's or some B's, and despite his perpetual absence was in top % of his class where all law students want to be. SWIM even got an award for being the top student in Constitutional law. Everyone in the school knew who SWIM was despite his anti-socialness. SWIM is not trying to brag or anything, because obviously the other BS in SWIM's life really cancelled out this "gift" and made it worthless. SWIM abused crack, coke and ecstasy towards the end of college and beginning of law school as the depression and insomnia was getting worse, hoping he would damage his brain and become dumber and maybe happy. SWIM finally tried heroin as it was offered by a friend to help with SWIM's insomnia. It was like going from 15 years of gray, stormy, lifelessness, to all the sudden seeing in color, being filled with love, and standing out in the bright sun.

SWIM actually wanted to be alive for the first time in his life, became much more social, got one of the best jobs of all his classmates, was beloved by the lawyers at his work (and became actual after-work friends with the bosses despite being 10-15 years younger), was no longer depressed, was passionate and cared about things - SWIM felt like what he was supposed to be. SWIM could go on and on about how his life got better. How he worked and went to law school 15-18 hours a day, no sweat, was going good as hell and loved it. SWIM's stable money ran out with a year left in law school, and he realized he wasn't going to make it. SWIM tried other things like methadone and suboxone, but they didn't have the same positive effects for SWIM. After 15 years of hating life, then having his eyes opened to what it was like to want to live and to actually want to be a productive member of society, then realizing the gray hell he was descending back into, SWIM said fuck it and planned to just binge out on H and kill himself at the end. SWIM admittedly has put off paying the piper and is ashamed of it, but who knows, maybe for the while SWIM is around something will happen like winning the lottery or whatever. Yeah yeah, stupid.

Well, that's SWIM's story. If they sold H like beer, SWIM knows he would have been able to do something great for a lot of people, or maybe even the country or world.

Please understand I'm not trying to sound whiny or resentful or anything. SWIM is just telling his story and doesn't have any emotions about it - it's just the facts of his life, and he recognizes the facts of life and how stupid it is to try and "rebel" against them or hate them.

You already seem to have a problem with me so I'm sure you can come up with all kinds of criticisms or whatever since I laid it all - but that's just the simple truth of SWIM's life, history, and world view, and I don't really care if anyone has any indirect insults or sarcastic comments to make.

dyingtomorrow added 8 Minutes and 58 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by chillinwill

I'm not too sure I agree with your

This is a topic for another thread and don't want to strain too much from the original topic but alcohol is already legal and regulated, yet, we still have all these problems with alcohol. You honestly think that legal heroin would be safer than alcohol if it was regulated. Think about the people that get hooked on the legal H and then want to stop, then relapse, and OD because they don't realize about tolerance. Sure, that already happens today but just by having H regulated, does not mean it would be safer than alcohol. It would be safer than most drugs that are illegal now due to purity issues, dose, etc if it were legal. Just my two cents

Heroin is so easy to grow that if corporations were allowed to sell it, it would be dirt cheap. It would be regulated like other drugs, and thus much safer (even tho in its street form it is still a fraction as deadly as alcohol). There would be all kind of accurate and plentiful harm-prevention info. Tolerance management, and site injection management would be no problem at all since the medical info would come from doctors and not just street junkies, and such info and treatment would no longer be underground.

Unlike beer, medical grade Heroin does not cause permanent internal or brain damage. Someone who drinks for 10 years will have more physical damage than someone who does H for 50 years (assuming they are hygienic). If you decided to quit heroin because you didnt like the thought of being addicted (which is not a problem in itself, tens to hundreds of millions of people are addicted to one thing or the other in the U.S.), opiates would be so cheap and taboo-free that tapering and quitting would not be a problem. They'd probably allow things like Iboga or Ketamine into the mainstream along with legal heroin, which would make quitting nothing at all. Not to mention that heroin withdrawals are not really deadly. The people who die from H withdrawals compared to alcohol withdrawals are a small, tiny fraction.

[the_perfect_drug]

Originally Posted by dyingtomorrow

Not to mention that heroin withdrawals are not really deadly. The people who die from H withdrawals compared to alcohol withdrawals are a small, tiny fraction.

In all the literature I've read on the topic, as well as the psychopharmacology classes I've taken, there is no factual instance of anyone dying from heroin withdrawal.

[dyingtomorrow]

Originally Posted by the_perfect_drug

In all the literature I've read on the topic, as well as the psychopharmacology classes I've taken, there is no factual instance of anyone dying from heroin withdrawal.

Not directly from the withdrawal, but it puts a lot of stress on your body and can cause other preexisting conditions to become deadly. It is a rare thing however that someone dies from that even.

Heh, thanks for bumping this. This was one of the first posts SWIM made here and it's funny to see how he thought ~1 year ago.

[thebige]

Originally Posted by the_perfect_drug

In all the literature I've read on the topic, as well as the psychopharmacology classes I've taken, there is no factual instance of anyone dying from heroin withdrawal.

Swim doesn't believe death is from any one symptom of withdrawal,but maybe death caused by extreme dehydration,cardiac disturbances,loss of sleep leading to psychosis to possible suicide.......who knows......... different thread,just a thought......
Anyway DT,swim believes the subbies are a good way to get away from the ritual of it all.....not for maintenance,but for some people it is a good way to clear out some cobwebs and reassess some priorities.......if thats the plan.......swim also feels that swiy could break through the subs with the H,and with a little experimentation swiy can find the best time and dosage for ones own body (people on maintenance take "vacations" all the time).
With that, using subs in this way almost destroys its intended purpose and causes a whole set of problems of its own.....swim doesn't recommend it,but he knows of some that use this method and just wanted to put it on the table.
Kinda sounds like the "sick and tired of being sick and tired" rational may be setting in....as always stay safe DT. bige

Reputation Comments on this post:

Supportive, good to mention the that priorities do change.

[$limJim]

I completely agree with you on that DT. The only fucking problems Slim has EVER had in four years of heroin addiction came from it's illegitimacy. Slim's parents consider his use to be horrible and are so "dissapointed in Slim". Um... Ok, but you guys are proud of Slim's sister, who is (supposedly) on Suboxone maintenance. Slim's sister has to take her nasty as shit little orange pills every day to get through life, while Slim himself finds the white powder and needle route to be the only way for him.

So what is the difference between Slim and his sister. Slim has to go into East St. Louis/St. Louis, go into the ghetto/hood and interact with all sorts of undesirable characters, spend a MUCH larger amount of money and every day risk his life either by gunshot or from some questionable dope that some shit head dealer decided to cut with some fentanyl or rat poison or god fucking knows what.

Of course Slim has never come across rat poison in his dope, but he is just pointing out that his product is at the disposal of a whole ladder of dealers, each one doing with it what they will, while Slim's sister simply goes into the pharmacy and gets her lifeline in a bottle.

So if Slim wasn't spending all his goddamn money on the shit and risking his life everyday just to get his medicine what would they think? What would society as a whole think? What if Slim could go to the pharmacy every day and get a bottle of diamorphine and a bag of syringes to take home and safely use there. Well, due to the general consensus of the masses, they would probably think "I cannot believe the government has come to this. This is horrible, feeding these junkies their poison like that." But they would never realize that we would no longer be junkies.

The term junkie came from back in the day, the 50s or 60s I think, from all of the heroin addicts that would scavenge the junkyards or wherever for scrap metal, which they would sell to feed their habits. So take that part out of the junkie's life, the thieving and lying and all of that illegal shit that one is forced to do to supply himself with his much needed medicine, and what are they? They are simply a patient, just like the old man who needs his heart medicine to live. Addiction is a disease, and a junkie needs his medicine to live.

Sorry, DT, but we are foolishly dreaming of something that will never happen. Not in America. What say you we hop on a plane and fly to the Netherlands or wherever the fuck it is they will give us some diamorphine for free, just because they recognize our disease for what it really is.