Long Term Bupe Use - Painful Withdrawals ... Potential Solution?

[dyingtomorrow]

I've heard time and time again that people who have been on Bupe for a long time get horrible withdrawals even from small tapering, and especially at the end. SWIM also has heard, seen and experienced that switching to Bupe and dropping quickly, like in 2 weeks, has almost NO withdrawal symptoms.

SWIM is currently around 2 weeks using Bupe having switched from H, and went down from 8 mg to 2 mg with no ill effects at all. The miracle stories SWIM heard about people having no withdrawals with a fast taper all took less than 2 weeks. SWIM is now worried he's getting too acclaimated to it, didn't go down fast enough, and is going to have those problems.

SWIM had a thought - maybe doing as small of a dose of possible of H for a couple days, so as to clean your body out and get it un-used to suboxone again, and then switching back would allow you to do the fast taper method (although the first day would probably suck again). Has anyone heard of anyone doing this?

SWIM has done pretty much every experiment with suboxone / H abuse you can do, and will test this himself if tapering starts getting painful, but would prefer to find out if someone before him has done it.]

[Richard_smoker]

haha...guess you're starting your OWN thread on this topic now, huh?

I started to say this was a double-post, but i was quickly reminded of your "the faster the better" theory for getting off buprenorphine!

Tell us more about the situation.

if i understand your post correct, it sounds like swiy've only been on bupe for 2 weeks...right? if so, swiy could spend the next several weeks acclimatizing to less and less bupe.

I don't think anyone REALLY gets addicted to buprenorphine until at LEAST 6 to 12 weeks of HIGH DOSE Bupe (4mg to 32mg daily).

My reccomendation: keep tapering, keep chin up, don't doubt the plan, don't look back, don't worry about another 4 weeks or so taking buprenorphine. 6 weeks total does NOT equal addiction. especially not if the dose has been tapered over the 6 weeks.

best of luck. -DICK

[dyingtomorrow]

Thanks for the info RS. Sorry didn't know or see that there was already a thread about switching to H to reset suboxone stagnation.

I just hear so many long term bupe horror stories, I wasn't sure what the cutting off point is before you turn into one of those people that can't even go down 2mgs a day without horrible withdrawals. It seems like it would work to me, because I know that switching the chems up in your brain so you don't get too "acclimated" to one specific opiate can, depending on your purpose, really help (e.g. not going thru methadone withdrawal and switching to H a couple days before suboxone).

SWIM felt bad yesterday tho, SWIM was going to drop from 2 to 1 mg, but SWIM had really fun plans and SWIM wanted to feel good that night, so SWIM cheated and snorted 4 mgs. It didn't make SWIM feel any better than just the 2 mgs, and now SWIM feels bad for doing it, but SWIM took my 2 mgs today (snorted) and feels okay (well, physically, SWIM still has God awful blaring screaming in my head cravings). You seem very intelligent and experienced on this subject - do the cravings ever go away? How long!?

Thanks for the recommendation - gonna keep going I guess, will try an drop to 1 mg tomorrow.

P.S. I'm glad a place like this exists, where people can trade accurate information. It's really a horrible thing how the government, authorities, and even our own doctors intentionally lie to us. How many assholes there are answering wiki-questions on the web, like "no you can't snort suboxone, it will make you have withdrawals" knowing they are just lying thru their teeth and trying to deceive millions of people because of their own twisted, perverse "morals." The reason most people end up addicted to hard drugs is because they learn as teenagers that teachers/police/doctors are intentionally lying to them about drugs and other important things (and about stupid things, like pot being a "dangerous" "deadly" "narcotic", or not teaching them about condoms and just telling them not to have sex), and thus have no reason to believe the few truths they tell, like how addictive and destructive certain drugs actually are.

[Richard_smoker]

i totally agree with all positive statements that you made about this forum. This forum has given swim the courage, support, and information needed to deal with his TRUE monsters (like opiate addiction). Realize that swim was a member for years prior to 'tipping his hand' as to the REAL issue going on in his life...and this seems to be very common with opiate abuse. Very frequently, a user can seem quite 'normal' when adequately supplied with his/her opioid of choice. Depending on the opiate and the addict's supply, one could very literally fly under the radar for YEARS AND YEARS without being 'discovered.'

So, in reference to what I know about opiate addiction and buprenorphine--swim is currently undergoing a fairly aggressive buprenorphine taper. he was on the drug for about 18 months, on doses of around 8 to 16mg daily.

He learned from THIS FORUM that trying to quit cold-turkey from buprenorphine addiction can give withdrawal symptoms for upwards of an ENTIRE MONTH!!!

Because of this issue, he decided on a tapering schedule that he thought he could live with... immediately, he stopped taking the bupe in his previous, haphazard, happy-go-lucky manner. immediately, he began crushing his pills and dissolving into a known quantity of water, then using a syringe to dose out a known # of mg's per cc.

He started charting his progress, and turned to THIS BOARD for support. What he found was nothing short of life-changing. People came out of the woodwork to support him. He was given information about several other effective tools (besides buprenorphine) to assist him in completing his task, and accomplishing his goal.

currently, he is coming up on week #7. His daily dose is 0.35mg twice daily.

Tomorrow, he will decrease to 0.2mg.

Have the last 6 weeks been difficult? YES!
But, I must say that it has been amongst the most interesting, self-rewarding, enlightening, spiritual, fulfilling 6 weeks of my adult life.

all that and no meetings. -DICK

[dyingtomorrow]

Deleted

[Richard_smoker]

just read the rules carefully and submit...surrender your soul to us.

[dyingtomorrow]

Deleted

[Richard_smoker]

it's cool. deep breathing. you still have a green square, so you should be ok. let's just keep this to detox and withdrawal for now. i think it's #1 priority...for now, anyways.

So, where is swiy now on the tapering protocol? 2mg? once or twice a day?

-DICK

[dyingtomorrow]

Well, SWIM has been on 2mgs, but has been on that for about 4 days (kinda stagnated). Then yesterday SWIM cheated and snorted 4 mgs thinking maybe he'd feel better than normal cuz SWIM was expected to party last night. It didn't feel any better than just the 2 mgs - SWIM wishes he didn't do it. So today SWIM snorted 2 mgs again and feels perfectly fine, and was glad it didn't jack his tolerance up or anything. SWIM is torn, because SWIM likes snorting much better than sublingual, and it basically does the same thing anyways and has no more negative effects than sublingual (disregarding the taboo against snorting). Tomorrow SWIM is going to drop down to 1 mg, but doesn't know if he wants to keep snorting or just do sublingual again. SWIM still feels perfectly normal, and is optimistic about dropping to 1 mg.

On the other hand, wanted to run this by you. Okay, so far SWIM has had no problem at all going from 8 mg (plus SWIM shot 4 mgs on the first day), to 2 mg. None at all. BUT - Bupe apparently has a kind of inverse exponential curve of effectiveness. SWIM is worried that there is a much bigger difference between 0-2mg than between 2-8mg, and that it is going to be MUCH harder. Do you think there's anything to SWIM's paranoia?

Reputation Comments on this post:

great information!

[Richard_smoker]

um, sure. there's something to your paranoia.

but you haven't even been on the stuff long enough to become "addicted" to the bupe, have ya?

only way i'd worry about diving below 2mg after a 2 week taper from 8mg is if you've allowed yourself to become addicted to bupe (takes several months)...in that case, you would need 3 weeks of 2mg, because you'd be going thru w/d from 8mg (hidden from you by the 2mg daily)...but, if you drop down to 1mg too quickly, you will suddenly begin to feel the w/d from stopping the 8mg habit. see? the shit really does stick around with you, in your system for SO LONG; and 2mg is plenty enough to totally mask the w/d symptoms from 8mg, that it's really no wonder that:
1. bupe has been called the "magic miracle cure" and
2. people have had trouble trying to figure out how to stop taking it, when and if they finally decide to stop.

If you've really only been on bupe for 2 weeks, then you won't have this problem...you should be good with continuing your taper. only problem is that you're going to have to slow down the taper at the sign of withdrawal (NOT just b/c you want to get fucked up! this is VERY important). But, if the urge strikes you again, understand that it's WAY WAY BETTER for swiy to go ahead and snort 2mg than start thinking about your original opiate of choice.

Remember, forward progress is forward progress. We didn't send a guy up to the moon in one day...it took nearly an entire decade to get the lighting, fake lunar gravity, and trick photography just right. keep that in mind. -DICK

Reputation Comments on this post:

Thanks for all the great info!

[dyingtomorrow]

I'm a bit unclear why it takes several months. Is it because the shit builds up in your body or something?

SWIM has been into bad withdrawal at least 100 times. The ONE time SWIM actually made it and cleaned up cold turkey (he was only snorting H at this point), ironically, was when SWIM took his last H dose, then did 80, 40, 20 mg methadone taper over 4 days. SWIM knows the difference between H withdrawal and Methadone withdrawal. The withdrawals were even worse than just horrible H withdrawals, with unbelievable night terrors (something he never had before, never had again, but the depths of terror and insanity he experienced will always stay with him) - the only reason SWIM made it thru was because he was trapped in Indiana and couldn't get back to Chicago.

My point is, 3 days of H and your body will be H acclimated. 3 days of Methadone and your body will be Methadone acclimated. Why would/does suboxone take months? Something to do with the partial agonist or something? How do you know it takes months?


P.S. thought I'd finish the cold turkey story. SWIM was soooo happy he made it thru, the day after he felt normal he went out. Music sounded sooo good to him, he went out to a tight house venue and fucking partied his ass off. Was so hung over the next day, went right back to H. LOL

[Richard_smoker]

well, if you allow yourself to become dependent on the suboxone (this takes months), then you will be facing a whole NEW withdrawal scenario that will take 3 weeks or more to kick cold turkey.

However, if you only take the suboxone long enough for your body to get adjusted to no heroin, then you can get off the suboxone rather quickly by tapering your dose as fast as comfortably possible. -DICK

[bupaddict]

Yes I agree with Richard, I have been on Subutex 0.4mg x2 tablets a day for about 3 years now, I remember attempting to quit back then when I first got on the 0.4mg (x2) a day, the withdrawals wernt even that bad compared to what it feels like today ,
but I held it off due to work commitments etc thinking I'd wait till my holidays. Being on it for so long has only made my withdrawals more intense as years go by.

[dyingtomorrow]

Originally Posted by Richard_smoker

well, if you allow yourself to become dependent on the suboxone (this takes months), then you will be facing a whole NEW withdrawal scenario that will take 3 weeks or more to kick cold turkey.

However, if you only take the suboxone long enough for your body to get adjusted to no heroin, then you can get off the suboxone rather quickly by tapering your dose as fast as comfortably possible. -DICK

Down to 1 mg and no problems. I'm not really sure where to jump off now tho. Uh, SWIM really wants to get some K, ecstasy, coke, or, worst possible scenario, just xanax, or some other shit to make it thru the couple days after. Really worried about it.

[Richard_smoker]

coke? i wouldn't advise it.

bring yourself down to 0.5mg, then half of that, and so on... always halving the tiny pieces until you're dealing with tiny specks of dust. believe me, even the tiniest specks are still alive.

-DICK

[dyingtomorrow]

Originally Posted by Richard_smoker

coke? i wouldn't advise it.

bring yourself down to 0.5mg, then half of that, and so on... always halving the tiny pieces until you're dealing with tiny specks of dust. believe me, even the tiniest specks are still alive.

-DICK

Why not coke?

SWIM's uncle got AIDS from H use in the 80s and died (why the fuck am I an H addict, right?), but at the end he said coke was the only thing that could stop the pain.

From SWIMs experience coke is a decent pain killer and even helps relieve the pain from full blown withdrawals.

Wanted to ask you something else too:

SWIM cheated the other day and snorted 4 mgs when he was on 2 mgs and didn't get high and regretted it. Was worried about it ruining SWIMs detox but he went back to 2mgs with no added pain or anything. SWIM is on 1mg now and really wants to just feel good for a change. Think snorting 4mg would do that? will it mess up SWIM going back to 1 mg or is it safe to cheat every once in a while?

( I give no credit to crap like "you shouldn't do it because it will increase the chances of a relapse" or shit like that. I'm talking purely physical effects here. )

[Dickon]

It may or be not true....

Appologies for somewhat off-topicness, but people are talking about coke in w/ds to which I have a one word answer: DON'T. I have to say I've never tried it (so take this with a serious pinch of salt), but what I have done is take amphetamines to try to quit. It seems to work well for a while (but bear in mind amphetamines - I'm talking the UK kind - so not meth-amphetamine) but once you get the inevitable comedown (and trust me it will come sooner not later with coke) mixed with the withdrawals you tell me you're not going to use again? W.d.s are hard enough especially without a coke comedown. I'm so smiling to myself that despite being 58 hours clean after tapering from 225mg methadone I have not just smoked a rock of crack!!! Last time I took crack I followed it with 6 10 pound bags of heroin and even that didn't chase the blues away. The thought of a crack comedonwn in withdrawls fills me with unimaginable horror. Please, please, I'm beging you, if you're remotely serious leave the stimulants alone!! [stops ranting and foaming at the mouth]

{Turns to Dick} Ah.....Why didn't you tell me! It seems like we're in similar boats. I've only used bupe once, so I'm afraid it's one thing I can't speak about in terms of specifics, but if you're on 0.4 or 0.7mg a day that's pretty good. The pills for civilians are 0.2mg, so presumably that is still something, but it's a tiny fraction of a 2mg addict pill. I'm now going to beam you lots of positive energy, and wish you all the best.[Turns to rest of room: Dick has been a godsend helping me through my current detox with advice and encouragement.]

I tend to think that short of a spiritual experience, the piper must be paid in full. I know of (if the man himself is to be believed) an addict with years good standing stopping on a dime and feeling absolutely no pain, after a (naturally occuring - not ibogain induced) spiritual experience and I've read of such events occuring in a book about the now-departed infamous walled city in Hong Kong, and a Christian who came to treat addicts. So keep hoping everyone, you may find Jesus (laughs heartily - thinking to self "don't hold your breath". Quotes Crass humourously not wishing to offend anyone "Jesus died for his own sins not mine").

My one piece of advice for anyone quitting is to follow the advice of a post "how to come off 150mg methadone cold turkey, the easy way". I've been roughlyfollowing this advice since tapering my methadone to 20mg (roughly 5mg a day reductions- so reasonably quick taper), and I have to say that "easy way" is all-but-certainly a misnomar, but I think "easier way" is true. I'd highlight the clonidine: this is a miracle drug. It does not make withdrawals easy, but it makes them a damn site easier. I can only imagine Bupe has been falsely hyped, or it is no worse than methadone to get off, and I guess all the advice in that thread still hold.

My heart goes out to anyone trying to quit. I'm feeling so much better just 58 hours in, despite not having shaken all the w/d.s yet. If anyone wants any advice or encouragement from someone nearly through this hell please drop me a note or come visit my own thread "Screaming in the Night. Help emotional and technical with methadone withdrawals pls". Screaming in the night does unfortunately sum up the worst times! Hang on in there everyone!! Chin up and don't let the f&&k-whore keep you as his bitch!!! Slap that monster spitting and snarling into the gutter and break every bone in his demonic monkey body, and laugh as you're doing it.

[Giving a punch to everyone's monkeys, departs sending positive vibes to all and warm fluffies and duvets and kindness and understanding. I just wish I could take the pain away for everyone]

Dr D

[bupaddict]

Originally Posted by Dickon

My one piece of advice for anyone quitting is to follow the advice of a post "how to come off 150mg methadone cold turkey, the easy way".

Hi Dickon, I've tried doing a search but having problems with the search function, can you link the post on here plz.

[Dickon]

I am somewhat new to this so let's hope this works. http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56011
Failing that I'll try again. Alternatively click on the blue underlined "opiates" at the top of the page, and search through the pages. As of now it's on page 3. But these numbers change as posts are posted.

Good luck

D

Dickon added 0 Minutes and 24 Seconds later...

P.S. The link worked for me )

[Richard_smoker]

there's a very simply reason why coke or amphetamines are bad during opiate withdrawals. Your body already goes into sympathetic overdrive (nervous, shaky, sweaty). add amphetamines or coke to the mix and you just get MORE withdrawal hell.

-DICK

[dyingtomorrow]

Thanks for the warning. SWIM had shot up some coke when he was phasing into withdrawals before, and it held him for many hours (not to mention made him horny as shit). SWIM could see how the comedown from that could be horrible though if you didn't have H to phase to.


What about ecstasy? not that I have any clue how to get them, but what about PCP or Ketamine, think those would help?

[bupaddict]

SWIMS has tried Ecstacy before for heroin withdrawals, they made his withdrawal even worse on the ecstacy come down.

[just jen 2010]

Originally Posted by dyingtomorrow

I've heard time and time again that people who have been on Bupe for a long time get horrible withdrawals even from small tapering, and especially at the end. SWIM also has heard, seen and experienced that switching to Bupe and dropping quickly, like in 2 weeks, has almost NO withdrawal symptoms.

SWIM is currently around 2 weeks using Bupe having switched from H, and went down from 8 mg to 2 mg with no ill effects at all. The miracle stories SWIM heard about people having no withdrawals with a fast taper all took less than 2 weeks. SWIM is now worried he's getting too acclaimated to it, didn't go down fast enough, and is going to have those problems.

SWIM had a thought - maybe doing as small of a dose of possible of H for a couple days, so as to clean your body out and get it un-used to suboxone again, and then switching back would allow you to do the fast taper method (although the first day would probably suck again). Has anyone heard of anyone doing this?

SWIM has done pretty much every experiment with suboxone / H abuse you can do, and will test this himself if tapering starts getting painful, but would prefer to find out if someone before him has done it.

P.S.
All the whiners can save the complaints. The ones telling people to switch from methadone straight to suboxone and BS like that, when just doing H for 2 days instead would save you a WORLD of pain. The fact that most truthful information about drugs is hidden from people is why most people end up junkies in the first place.

I totally agree with you Swim...the maniac moose was on day 5 of sub wd (was on 16 but jumped off at 4mg) and decited to take a break and take pills for a few days because sub takes sooooooooo long to wd from, and pills take 3 days usually..the mad moose sais that it's easier to kick pills than subs (she been on them for 2 years) clonidine took away all the wd's but no had zero energy...

[dyingtomorrow]

Heh, this was one of my first threads on the forum. Always funny to read. The story of course ended with SWIM not getting off suboxone, relapsing, and getting kicked out of his (now) ex-gf's place. *laugh*

Also, SWIM has a speculation as to why bupe withdrawal becomes so much longer lasting and painful after a certain point of long term use. It seems that bupe acts on a number of different receptors besides just the mu opiod, and thus after prolonged use, throws their regulation out of balance as well. SWIM assumes this is at least part of the reason, although if anyone has medical sources that would be always be welcome.