Journal - Screaming in the night air. Help emotional and technical for methadone withdrawal

[Gappa]

I've still been following this one out here. I have not written much in the past week or so as to see how I would fare. I'm still stable on 1-2 mgs of Suboxone after 2 weeks but everytime I try to get off it 45 hours or so into it I'm violently ill. I cannot afford to neglect my business any longer so I will have to attempt this at a later date. I feel wonderful now like a dead weight the size of a bowling ball has been lifted from the center core of my body. Getting off m-done was the best move I ever made. But I do feel as if the fight is not over yet....
I do not feel defeated rather the opposite. SWIM considered using a benzo to get "over the hump" but read into the "benzo withdrawl" section and decided I am miles ahead and much better off now with no "insanity" in my life now. That's the last thing I need to be talking to a customer in benzo withdrawl twitching and shit.

[Richard_smoker]

Gappa, you'll be fine. Check your pm's for an extended taper schedule. 1-2 weeks is pushing it. you will need more like 2 months if you want it to work; plus if you're working that throws an extra kink into things. godspeed. good luck. let me know what you decide.
DICK

[Dickon]

In a village in Malaysia a duck without webbed feet pontificated the following in a dream within a dream.....

Yeah Gappa, listen to Dick. It's simply a case of horses for courses. I was talking to a man today (Someone who I used to buy methadone from) and we were talking about the physical trauma of quitting. He was an advocate of the go slowly route. For me,although I'm 40 days abstinent today (wayhay!)I still am not "right". I've been suffering mentally and worrying if I'll ever be "right" again. This is almost certainly stupid as I've just subjected my body to some god-awful abuse by quitting! I have definitely not really been thinking of quite how much it takes to actually get through the pain and trauma and that is involved. I can totally understand how 45 or however many hours in it simply gets "too much".

It says a lot about your character, Gappa, that you have come here and talked about this. It is far harder to admit when things don't go according to plan, and I'm really glad you don't feel defeated. You've got off the methadone and cut down from 16mg a day to 1-2mg a day of buprenorphine. This is a great success. Sadly, as I was really surprised to find out, tapers are all bottom heavy. On the "How to go cold turkey from 150mg of methadone! The easy way" thread in this section the doctor (in the first post) says how people seem to have as much difficulty coming off 1mg methadone as coming off 60mg. I really do not understand why this should be so, as 1mg seems so sub-therapeutic. However I am inclined, for want of better evidence, to believe that this is roughly but not entirely true.

Dick, do you know the equianalgesic buprenorphine/methadone equation, or is there simply not one? I know I found 2mg buprenorphine to be equal to about 50+mg of morphine the only time I ever took it, although it was qualitatively a very different experience. Obviously the problem is that for people on methadone they can't be transfered easily to buprenorphine if the methadone dose is high enough, and buprenorphine has a ceiling dose. I'm just curious though if low doses of methadone can be converted to buprenorphine in any meaningful way.

I hope all is good with everyone; I've been a grumpy old so-and-so this morning, but am feeling a bit better now! 40 days - that's my time in the wilderness over - or it should be. lol.

Love and joy-joy feelings to all

Dickon

[Gappa]

I am greatful to be feeling good again indicated by my sly taunts in other threads and flashy new "cold turkey" avatar.lol But I do know there is more to go, I can still feel some lingerings of the done curse in my body. I believe I am approx 5-6 weeks clean from m-done but still feel a firey hot needle skin flash or also a personal fave an oven door sweating/freezer type hot cold flash every once in awhile. But i think Dr Dick smokinheimer has a good idea about using a large hypo to dissolve an 8mg tab and get the doses down MUCH further than 1mg. You simply get into taking crumbs and dust not knowing exactly how much you are injesting.

Gappa added 15 Minutes and 21 Seconds later...

Talking about the low doses of done and the 60mg being just as hard to quit as 1mg you really have to look logically at this of course 1mg is going to be way eaisier to cold turky from than 60. I don't see a monkey going into full convulsive wd's from CTurky 1mg. A lab rat on 60 or 100 I could expect to see some of the more severe symptoms. A precipitated HARD convulsive full blown withdrawl on the Gappanator 1-10 scale=has to be a perfect 10. I don't see cturky from 1 mg Bupe ever getting over a 4 unless ones monkey had taken it for an extended period.

[Richard_smoker]

Gappa,

you are correct in your assertions.

Dickon, there is a large grain of truth in the statement you made concerning 60mg m'done being as difficult to quit as 1mg...the main differential here is essentially HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN ON THAT 1mg? and FOR WHAT REASON? (or--"what does m'done "DO" for you?")

In this sense, stopping something altogether--especially something that is associated with pleasure, and at times we have placed in importance only SLIGHTLY ahead of food and water--in these instances, it becomes a psychological BATTLEGROUND to overcome something, even if it is only 1mg.

This is where the BEAUTY of buprenorphine comes in!

Because similarly, it has NO CEILING dose, it also really has NO MINIMAL DOSE!

I cannot back this up with substantial documentation, HOWEVER, i will simply say this and allow the reader to come to his own conclusion: buprenorphine has been out for over 20 years, and it has also been available--globally---for pain control, IN SUBLINGUAL FORM!

Guess what a TYPICAL DOSE, using the last 20 years of global-medical-Buprenorphine experience for pain control is?
ANSWER: 0.1mg to 0.2mg!! (that means one 8mg pill = EIGHTY (80) DOSES!!!!)


That's right! so, while it's true that tapers CAN become bottom heavy--usually, that's simply a manifestation of "buyer's remorse"--i.e. you thought you wanted to quit, but you really don't know if it's such a good idea....

...so you keep lingering on...

BULLSHIT!

Make a taper schedule. Give yourself sufficient time to adjust between step-downs. TRUST that you will be FINE (NO--YOU WILL BE WAY BETTER!) ONCE THIS MESS IS OVER! I PROMISE YOU!

Gappa, I'm glad to see that someone read and digested my suggestion on dissolving the tabs into a known quantity of water! This technique will SAVE YOUR ASS!!

Take 1cc as a dose every single time you dose. Once you get down to your final pill, just dissolve it in a SHITLOAD of water (example: 30 to 80+cc if using 8mg pill).

I think you'll find this very helpful. keep up the good fight. keep up your chin. don't sweat the small stuff--and taking a few months---hell, even taking FOUR (4) MONTHS is really all just SMALL STUFF!

-DICK

[jon-q]

Reading gappas posts over the last few days leads me to believe that perhaps "Gappa" should just slow down a little.The last hurdle is always the hardest one to jump and if somebody is not ready to make that "Leap of faith" then perhaps a pause-just to catch ones breath may not be all that bad of an idea.
Swim is the master of a quick failed detox,He has championed six in all usualy over a period of 7-10 days and thats going straight from a high dose of Heroin to a quick methadone taper,even then that last 0.5mg was a bitch to give up,and at this small a dose mental factors must be considerd-and when reading Gappas posts swi-q worrys that maybe stopping that last 1mg of methadone is the wrong thing to do at this moment in time.
If 1mg of methadone will allow swiyou to function and resume your normal day to day duties?then swi-me would say if your not happy/confident at letting go,then don't wait and take stock of the situation,attend to your work and make a plan in the near future were you can have a stress free holiday for at least a week and then the methadone monkey can be removed from swiys back.
This aproach should not be seen as a failure or a set back,look upon it as a sensible step towards your long term aim of becoming drug free.
Best of luck and congratulations on getting to were you are today almost drug free.Take care and best of luck.jon-q
Happy birthday D you old bastard-I will return pm a.s.a.p
Dick-Hold on in there fella.
Sorry gappa i well mis read your last post,i thought you'd had - had a relapse "SORRY"

Reputation Comments on this post:

	good advice as always man
	EXACTLY! Thanks for chipping in on this....you're my new favorite member! ;)

[Dickon]

Thanks Jon, that's very observant of you, but yes everyone else, you there at the back not paying attention, I'm talking to you laddie, it is my birthday today!! So happy birthday to me! I'm also into week seven. So what a nice birthday present to myself.

Dick raised an important point, about the length of time someone is on a specific dose being important, and not just the dose itself. I agree. I don't agree about the "buyers remorse". Speaking personally I had none, or approaching none, when I quit this time round. Going from 225 to 30-40 was easy, but the last reduction was hard (I'm talking about something random here of course!). 20-15-10-5-0 was where the real fun started, but I never caught my breath as it were. 20 is under 10% of 225, and I'd no way solved 90% of the problem getting down to 20. Just a thought, but I never adjusted to any dose, so maybe I simply had a lot of "catching up to do", which I ended up doing on 0, rather than some smaller dose.

Think positive, it's doable, quickly or slowly depending on personality type, day of the year, frame of mind, sunspots, how the auguries are looking, a healthy dollop of sheer bloody mindedness, ditto of good luck, and maybe a small fish (perhaps not?).

I spent a far greater time of my withdrawal laughing and chuckling to myself than I did using. It's painful sure, but there is fun to be had. Seriously. I sat here in freezing sleepless agony composing posts for this thread, just to keep my spirits up and feel connected to the universe!

So, screamers and dreamers, I'm off to 3-d land for a shave and shower, seeing aftercare Mark, then seeing mum and brother for birthday lunch.

Happy birthday to me!

Dickon [old fogey]

[Richard_smoker]

Originally Posted by Dickon

T I don't agree about the "buyers remorse". Speaking personally I had none, or approaching none, when I quit this time round.

Dickon... in this instance, I believe that for this time around, after everything you've been thru--all the meetings, 12 steps, etc. AND the 2 or 3 other times you discovered sobriety...

...all these things lead me to HONESTLY believe that you KNEW with each relapse onto Methadone...you KNEW it was WRONG. you KNEW it did NOT feel right. and you KNEW that there was a MUCH BETTER WORLD OUT THERE!!!

So, in your case, i believe that the 'relapse' cycles that are supposedly so characteristic of addiction being treated....i believe you MIGHT have relapse'd yourself OUT.

In other words--you already knew in your mind--exactly how great and normal and happy and intelligent and coherent and (infinity) you would be SOBER.

and i believe that you knew this to be true with each relapse--and that belief built on itself after 1st trip-up---and built on itself MORE after subsequent relapse--fast forward now to the recent taper/detox! YOU WERE AN ANIMAL! (still are)!!

This took strength, courage, motivation...and reasons to finish the course. i believe that your previous experiences with rehabs and 12 steps and such just started pointing your own subconscious mind into the correct direction....it's what you do with info AFTER it's been feed to you...that's the true test of one's character.

Well, happy birthday to you. I hope you can manage to still have fun without a box of fentanyl patches, a dozen OC 80's, and a gram of columbia's finest cocoa.

JUST KIDDING OF COURSE! Be cool everyone. -DICK

[Dickon]

Just as a (maybe) final post to this thread, today I am two months off. I'm feeling optimistic about the future, and more energized. It's been great to see other peoples stories getting threads, and to anyone else the wrong side of a withdrawal, I can only say how helpful it has been for me to do my screaming on here. Thanks everyone who posted on here in my dark hours. Finally an especially big thank you to Dick, who's been with me on this journey, and indeed has made a journey of his own. You were a real star at a time of need.

Health, wealth and happiness to all

Dickon

[Richard_smoker]

well, truth be told, i don't know how far i'd have made it without you, Dickon.

there was one VERY influential day...one day in particular before i even knew who you were, when i was questioning everything--most of all, questioning the entire decision to even really try to quit...when i opened a pm from dickon that was LOADED with positive encouragement...making all these seemingly-outrageous claims about how great and wonderful it feels to be clean. also just a brief introduction to some very positive aspects of the immediate future--like the delirious highs and lows, chock-full of profound insights...

i can almost say for certain that without this message, i wouldn't be here today.

thanks dickon. i believe your encouragements went far with this individual. now, as just about anyone can see, those seeds you planted in those early days (the darkest hour) have resulted in 'seeds' of my own. and i'm happy to see that my experience turned out to be almost exactly like you promised.

try finding ANYTHING positive on the internet about opiate withdrawal...amazingly, you will probably not find much of anything.

I believe that the FEAR of withdrawal and getting clean has completely tarnished the collective experience of opiate detoxification...in terms of what's available to the average internet searcher. combine that with the abundance of introductory "Recovery"-type information that seems to be equally filled with negativity, self-doubt, and self-destructive "whining."

I found none of these traditional resources of information to be in any way helpful. Thanks for everything you did to help me get my life back. I know my family thanks you as well.

-DICK

[Dickon]

Well, folks, this is going to be the final full stop to screaming. I am having this thread closed, and am moving full-time to "Dreaming in the night air.....", which you can find in the same section. It's been fun, in a masochistic sort of way, and an introduction to the power of people helping each other here. As I write this I am 12 weeks off everything, which is amazing! Dreaming will not be listed as a journal thread, which may be confusing, but I'm afraid I had two journal-type threads going before the one journal per person rule came into being. Maybe this is for the best, as I hope Dreaming will be a meeting of minds for people who've got through the detox and want to keep up the good work! A million thanks once again to all who helped me through this tough but exciting time.

Life is wonderful!

Dickon