Journal - Screaming in the night air. Help emotional and technical for methadone withdrawal

[Dickon]

Let me state, pro forma, once and for all that I am a pathological lier, (or maybe I'm not (cf B. Russell and his paradox)), I can fly and everything I say henceforth on this site may or may not be true, I take the consequence of it being so (or otherwise -- except of course being asked to jump from a 23rd floor window. I lied about the flying. But you know that).

It may or may not be true that....

This is my first post, and it's not exactly that I'm inexperinced or ignorant. So I shall do a kind of brief one off intro. No, let's just say I picked up morphine and it's siblings 20 years ago or more, I've had 3 1/2 years off in those years (cleaning up first time from 200mg methadone (about a third of which was I/v, in the good ol' 50mg/1mg amps. Still got the scars, caustic shit !!!) in Clouds house (did it really belong to Aleister Crowley?) 200 (day of admission)/100(day 2)/0(day 3-day700+) with Clonodine and oh yes that included a 10 day benzo detox. I'd come off (foolishly) roughly 20-100 "full strength" 1st generation benzos (10mg Valis , 20mg Temis, 25mg Librium(Should I try to spell Chlordiazepoxide?), and (I think, surprisingly due to 1 out of 10 benzo addicts on this site who expressed a preference, expressing a preference thereto) 50mg(??) Oxazepam, which personally could have been a placebo) and fitted out after a few days in front of (now dead) "good ol' Dad"(a nice man, no sarcasm), so returned to 3-5 a day (taken before even the methadone to get me out of bed. Only an addict takes Temazepam to get out of bed in the morning. One of you out there will get it I'm sure, even if you, dear reader, don't!!!). I didn't really figure the benzos as a problem, but heck I quit for 23 months and a bit including alcohol (the N.A. way!!!) I'll not describe the w/d-s but as one picture paints a thousand words I'll let you know that in Cloud's one of the particular joys (non-sarcastic) was "relaxation", essentially a post-prandial "you're on a beautiful beach, shut your eyes...." etc.,etc., and one day lying perfectly still listening to a woman's voice (I'm not making this up, it probably could have been a man's voice !!) within 30 (I think it might have been 15) seconds had experienced 3 orgasms. OK any male Junky who's been on the circuit a while will know the one-five pull orgasm or even the rub-against-something variety, so those who understand smile !! But clonodine (alpha-2-adrenergic agonist, which in case that makes no sense to you as it never did to me (shurely shome mishtake ed. ain't that "ANT-agonist") it binds to the adrenal-receptors fooling the body that there's a lot of adrenaline floating about thus downregulating adrenalin production etc. etc.) [remind me, one day, if they let me, I must do poll of clonodine v lofexidine but with only those who've tried both allowed to vote. (for what it's worth I'm equivocal. (ok ok as you're pressing me, personally speaking clonidine is better for w/d symptomology, worse for s/effects profile))] kept me from chewing my body to pieces, or simply running screaming from the door (I had (dear ol') Mum primed with the large bottle of MST 200 continuss (where did he get it all from??? Berlin mostly. I think the health insurance companies are called Krankankasser - I was with AOK - the most primitive one - I got a card and could walk into any GP on the street, swipe my card and ask for benzos, morphine, barbs, and who knows I (~50%) got it (benzos, less chance for the MST). I was on a poulty 30mg script in the early 90s in the UK back in the days when methadone was gold-dust, but guess what in Germany meth is 5mg/ml not 1mg/ml. Day one I had to drink 30ml (150mg) and try to pass myself off as normal for a couple of hours in front of someone. Luckily this did not include the lavatory where fortunately I managed to localize the vomitting. [P.s. Ain't this life or drugs full of sexy excitement??]) and amazingly I never rang her !).)[If you're following the order of parenthesis, you're way smarter than me, and I'm simply not going to error correct here. In one instar I'm a mathematical logician, call me Dr D(smiles). Welcome to my world(bows deeply)]

time passes... (good yarns go here....)

tonight I'm sitting at home married second time round (first time was a clean kidlywink-less split when I was 25-27y.o.) with an 18 month old baby and a wife from heaven. I've reduced from ~300mg meth a day, although I started my detox from 225mg for two days with no discomfort so let's say 225mg (but think more not less), no benzos, alcohol to excess but not such that a day off or even several would cause pain, yet it/they would cause a frison of je ne sais quoi. OK (yes I'm an anal-retentive and make precise notes of these things) it went like this 225,225,215,175(ouch - forced by lack of Methadone),175(picked up script this day. Nothink to drink this day!), 165,155,145,140,135,.....(-5 per day),20(yesterday),15(today). And just in case anyone cares my script these days is 115mg/day (all oral - I've got very few veins left. And just in case you really wanted to know when I quit from 200 I was on 100mg oral/day plus 9 50mg amps/week. Pace (professionally speaking) Dr Adrian Garfoot, struck off, like so many of the doctors I've found(3 in fact)).

Right, I trust you're still with me, sorry I'm quite drunk, so it's probably me not you if you're not. But the question is what do I do now? My plan is 10mg tomorrow , 5mg day after, and that's that. I have more methadone than I need (~2000mg!), 90+ clonodine 0.1mgs, shed loads of supplements, and in the right environment when I set my mind too it I'm fuc@ing tough. I'm currently climbing the walls, chewing the carpets, losing my mind, but fighting like a rabid dog to win this dumb battle.

(Screams) {I give you} more information than you want, but far too little to help me.

(Pleads). Share your experience, strength, and/or hope please. Oh and if you're going to slate me for whatever reason, please realise I would never take kindly to anyone who abused a third party in full on withdrawal

"Tread Gently for you tread on my soul" [no doubt misquoted]

Love

Dr D.

Dickon added 15 Minutes and 25 Seconds later...

errata...

the good ol' 50mg/1mg amps : Add "days"

roughly 20-100 "full strength" 1st generation benzos : Add "per day"

could have been a placebo : Add "as far as I was concerned"

Oh and for the really attentive... as for the past in Berlin I was officially on a 150mg script, but got oodles of benzos and MST 100 and 200s, and (street) heroin should I need it. After I returned to England after my first 30mg script I got my private (Dr Garfoot) script for 150mg initially (100mg oral + 1 50mg/1ml amp per day) which was increased to ditto but 9 not 7 amps per week fairly quickly. But in those days it was fairly easy to get what you wanted down by the Cleveland Street Needle Exchange.

[JaWill88]

ummmm... that made no sense. swiy may want to refrase and get to the point. or maybe it's just swim doesn't understand and others will?

[Dickon]

usual caveat about my pathological lying etc.....

JaWills,

I am coming down from Methadone 225mg a day fairly quickly (roughly 5mg a day), and am on 15mg today, and I want some advice as what is best to do. I'm feeling mad and in pain, but I've quit methadone before (quickly from 200mg in 2 days using Clonidine in a rehab). I'm pushing 40 years old now not pushing 30 as then. Any practical advice, or love and kind words. Please don't tell me I'm a crap communicator. I know.

[MEKONE]

Comming off Methadone SUCKS BIGTIME!!! SWIM also feels that SWIY is doing it way too quickly.Maybe drop 5mg. every 3 days. SWIM used benzos once to take the edge off.Good Luck!!

[Dickon]

Usual caveats. It may or may not be true that...


A little update, more because it's nearly 6 in the morning and I'm about to get what little relief 10mg of methadone will give me. A couple of months ago I was regularly taking 300-400mg a day, sometimes more! I was actually, in that stupid junky way, quite "proud" of my daily record of 700mg (all i/v) until I read a medical artical that referenced a man (or maybe woman) on a 2000mg a day script!! In England that would be 2 litres of methadone mixture (3-4 pints for the imperially minded), or 400 5mg pills! The mind boggles: I have this vision of a man cracking 40 50mg/ml amps into a cup, and drinking what must be the most foul-tasting brew! The joys of junk-sickness eh boys and girls! Plays havoc with ones sanity. I'm supposed to be going to a beer festival today, so hope I'm up for it and that this will provide a distraction. I'm going to quit the booze in the next day or two. I don't think drinking is helpful especially when you want your body to recover. I've got some antabuse, so 1 pill will keep me off for a couple of weeks. It's great stuff: Instant will-power!! Recently I've been drinking like the proverbial fish, obviously trying to fill the gaping hole that is being created as the methadone is ripped out of me. OK It's not a full on turkey, but try going down on average over 5mg/day for about 5 weeks. Honestly it's only been in the last few days that I really started hurted. I've also been given a couple of those crazy happy moments only junk-sickness can give you! I've always loved the times just after a withdrawal. I just go about feeling great, happy, like a baby with a new skin, and I like to think of these little highs as little incentives to remind me why I'm putting myself through something that no sain would do unless there was something better on the other side.

Hey guess what folks, if you believe in me (Yes you do I hear you cry!!!), I'll have taken my last dose tomorrow morning, then once again into that great clear expanse, with just that flesh/mind/spirit/soul destroying thorn-field of withdrawal to run through naked to get there. I CAN do it. I CAN do it. Keep telling yourself that D, even if you don't believe it. Honestly, the scary thing is my confidence, I do believe it. I'm loath to say this, because it's one of those voices one longs to believe, but at the same time mustn't.

Addiction is such a great mind-twister. Anyone reading this who has never tried to quit, think of the game Twister. You have one idea under another, and a third somewhere else, all mutually incompatible! All but all of them trying to explain why the best thing to do is use, or not to use.

God I am tempted to jump off now. It's almost 6.30. I've survived nearly half an hour without taking the M I'm "entitled" to. No, stick to the plan. It's only tomorrow morning. Then the fun really starts... fun fun fun .... Can't kick if you can't laugh ! Yes, it's going to be a really interesting experience, one that poor normal people are sadly denied !! Oh yes, let's redefine withdrawals. Keep your spirits up, laugh at the f$cker as it rips your entrails out in front of you and makes you watch them desicate in the desert sun!

Well plan-sticking-to is the way. Off to bed with 10mg of methadone. God I don't think that would do much to a straight person!

[Richard_smoker]

damn dude.

good luck to you. i hate to speak what my mind is thinking right now...

if or when you find this taper to be too difficult to live with, you might want to reassess your situation by using the search engine, searching for "opiate taper" to evaluate different protocols.

I had a bit of trouble following your posts, but it seems obvious that you're ~40 years old, with a significant opioid addiction, sounds like a rather serious methadone habit, you're currently racing down from a 200mg/day habit, experiencing moderate to severe withdrawal syndrome, currently using alcohol, planning to begin self-administering disulfiram (antabuse) to induce a situation of alcoholic psychosis vs. abruptly discontinuing alcoholic beverages secondary to lack of willpower against alcohol, and i assume that you're doing all the above without medical attention, without attending rehab/detox or any other "supervision."

now, i can certainly acknowlege a certain nobility in your determination. To that end, I believe I speak for this entire community when I wish that we certainly HOPE you are successful in your endeavors.

However, being more realistic, (and based upon the experiences of others), I foresee some potential stumbling blocks in your IMMEDIATE future.

Here's a start: What is your motivation for quitting?

More specifically: Why the sudden effort to taper off methadone? Is it because you don't have a steady or legal supply?

3rdly: Describe to us the details of your current withdrawal experience. Any symptoms like racing heart, cold sweats, insomnia, nausea/vomiting/ cramping/ diarrhea/etc? We can probably offer advise for most of the above symptoms...there are other options for most withdrawal symptoms ASIDE from opiates.

CAUTION: please refer to the rules of this forum. To prevent incriminating yourself, we generally speak in "codes." for example, instead of answering my questions in a way that will incriminate yourself, please learn about the use of "SWIM"--translation: "Someone Who Isn't Me"

-DICK

[Dickon]

It may or may not be true that...

Thanks Richard for your post. First off I've covered my bases re self-incrimination with the opening statement of every post. Its easier to just state you could be lying, than start writing in a whole weird style. Besides I'm a law abiding citizen. If a Moderator asks me I will reluctantly change my style, but I have read the rules and believe my solution makes my posts adhere to them.

OK let's take what you say in turn. First off, although for the last week I've been drinking a lot it's all but been a few hours between 12 and 6. I think the chances of me having any serious problems coming of booze cold turkey are negligible. I am fully aware of the risks for REALLY heavy drinkers, but if you drink 8 pints of beer a day and stop dead you're not likely to suffer. OK - honestly this is ill-informed, but I know in rehab only one guy had problems, and he was drinking 2 bottles of Vodka a day and had been doing so for donkeys years. But I do have access to a few valium if the worst comes to the worst.

Motivation. There was an incident a couple of months ago, which showed me something I knew to be true. I guess if I'm looking for a catalyst or focus I can refer to this. It's what the 12-steppers would call a rock bottom. Something I am really not proud of. I am optimistic that no harm has been caused, but I saw the ugly side of addiction in a way I don't do with prescribed Methadone.

I have an 18 month old son, who I'd like to be able to love fully, as well as the best wife in the world. I never feel fully human on methadone, it is like seeing the world through grey-tinted spectacles. I don't dance, I am no longer spontaneous, honestly I'm not me however well I can perform day-to-day task or even appear normalish.

Why the tapering? Nothing to do with the supply. I've got 2000ml in the cupboard upstairs, with 805 coming in each Friday. I also have easy access to more, so in my present state I am suffering from an embarrasment of riches. My prototype was what happened around the time of my first wedding and honeymoon. I was on 150ml at the time and quite effortlessly and with no reason -- it just seemed to happen -- I cut down to 30ml. It didn't take, sadly, but it was curious. I'd not been on 150ml for very long mind you. The tapering was never really meant to be so quick, I was planning to cut down quickly through the high doses which is usually easy and almost pleasant. So I get down to 150ml (a third of the way!!), then 115ml (my script, no more buying on the black market!), then 110ml (half way), 100ml, 75ml,50ml,etc. etc. The pain only really kicked in when I got down to about 40. So I'd say to myself the next morning, I'm going to probably stick to 40 today, but why don't I take 35 now, and if I'm screaming murder later I'll take the other 5. One other thing I did was do an excell spreadsheet with a graph of my reduction, and I'd stare at it for motivation. This might sound really silly, but I wanted the graph to look good!!! It's odd: from one point of view this is quite a quick reduction, but I've never quit from a reduction before. I've always just jumped. I don't know if you have any experience with clonodine or lofexidine, but they make this possible. They are miracle drugs. Not miracle drugs because they eliminate all symptomology (far, far from it), but because they make it just about bearable. I've been using this for the last two nights (one pill night before last, two last night).

Symptomology: Overall yucky but bearable. I've had a couple of bad nights, but l've still been averaging a good 5 hours per night. I've no idea if this will change when I jump. I expect so. I've simply no idea how the cut-down will affect the final withdrawal profile. I've had really bad pains in my legs, bones and muscles, something new to me. My digestion has been bad (not able to eat), but it seems to be getting better again. I've had the junky freezing thing, starting seriously a few days ago, so at times I've been in a hot house with jumper, jacket, overcoat, and scarf in front of the radiator. Time has slowed down a fair bit (but not to an aganoizing crawl except some night times). Right now I'm pretty normal, slight goose-flesh, not sneezing overmuch, no diarrhoea yet, eyes are somewhat dilated. No chronic yawning, only a couple of bouts of leg-kicking, and trying to stretch my body in that weird way.

In conclusion, a couple of symptoms are totally absent, a couple problematic especially at night, but diclofenac and clonidine have reined the worst in, and most symptoms mild. Right now I just feel really rather calm and washed out (too much malt whisky yesterday!)

I'm taking non-sedating anti-histamines (the sedating ones have knocked me out before but always I've woken feeling so shit it's not worth it), clonidine (wonder drug that might halve the intensity of w/ds or more), and diclofenac( this is better for me than ibuprofen as ibuprofen kills my stomach and diclofenac doesnt). I've been taking valerian root, amino acids, milk thistle, alpha lipoic acid, L-tyrosine, multivitamins and today I got some adrenal concentrate as recommended by a doctor on this forum in a very good post callled something like "How to come off 150mg methadone abruptly the easy way." It was written by an addict with 18 years good standing who'd become a doctor when he was in his 50s. It's one of the most enlightened things I've read. I think that's a pretty broad spectrum of pharms and supps. However, I'd love to hear any other personal favourites? I won't touch Kava. It makes me feel awful.

I've gone on a bit, but please forgive me, it keeps myself not thinking about quitting (odd that, as that's what I'm writing about, but I'm the object not the subject as I write!), and it's the passage of time that is the real problem.

I hope that I've answered a few of your questions. I can't forsee a scenario worse than being floored by over-optimism / chutzpah / speed of taper / etc. etc. and being forced to resume the methadone. Even if I did I sure wouldn't take 115ml now. That would be stupid. I'm fully briefed on the dangers of quitting, relapsing and o.d.ing.

[Richard_smoker]

wow. i'm impressed, actually.

sounds like you've got a really good thing going. keep it up.

one thing that concerns me is the 'abundance' of methadone in the house, and arriving every friday... but, i don't think i need to remind YOU that having shit in the house will make for a lousy relapse scenario.

anyways, more power to ya. keep it up. i'd be interested in hearing how much clonidine it takes to keep a monster like this down. thanks. -DICK

[Dickon]

Usual caveat lector. I lie always or sometimes. The following may or may not be true...

Richard,

It may surprise you, but I think I am equally gobsmacked by your last post as you were by mine. So let's metaphorically speaking shake hands and get down to business. Unless you need the benefit of my expertise may I for now assume the role of taker. I am no psychic vampire, but I think you can understand I do need to take right now rather than give. The next couple of days are crucial. I have probably stupidly gone to a beer festival today and drunk 6 and a half pints or so of beer. It I don't hit the Whisky that will be an improvement from yesterday, but the somewhat sad thing is that it was classic "social drinking", rather than my usual "drinking alone". I am not codependent, or at least I no doubt am in part, but less so than your average Joe Addict. This puts into question a 6am Disulfram. I will probaby precipitate an adverse reaction as I might not have fully metabolized all the alcohol in my system by then.

OK let's accentuate the positive. I've only taken 10mg methadone today, despite a rather inviting text message a while ago offering me morphine. [Go figure - would this ever happen when I was using (well I still am but only as a means to an end I hope)??? - morphine being my no. 1 fave drug !!!]

So lets revere the plan, and adhere to it!! "The plan, the plan" - doubt the man but never the plan !!! The plan is perfect. God I'm such a child when I'm drunk and quitting. Frankly if you're going to object to me now you are an evil person: let the man trying to throw the monkey down have a bit of respect. He (er ...surely I - er....isn't that somewhat psychotic to refer toyour self as he?....YES of course it is!!! I'm loopy right now) is doing it his way. Throw in any life savers, but don't sit there tut-tutting. Chances are you've never quit, or if you have, that your mind protects you from the full horrors (sorry I mean fun - remember - I am going to enjoy the Withdrawal - [cocks snook to Junk-Sickness. You're messing with the wrong motherf**er. Blows raspberry. I'm going to kick you into into the 4th millenium!!]). Surely there's someone who can relate to quitting from 200mls plus of methadone in a few weeks just to savour that junk-sick moment!!!????!!!! If the plan is adhered to, I take 5mg of methadone some time after 6am tomorrow (ignoring any time changes) and then say goodbye.

Please someone post some warm blanket, some crumb to pick up. Don't bother with the "I don't understand a word you say", "you're doing it to fast", kind of stock post. I need positivity right now !!!! [no I don't, but it would help. Maybe a negative post would help better, I need to FIGHT!!!. Go figure]

All my love

D

Dickon added 29 Minutes and 21 Seconds later...

ok....theme song for this particular pain is....Eminem's Lose Yourself.....close second is Bach's 5 part book 1 well-tempered Klavier fugue in C sharp minor in 5 voices. I am crying. I am howling at the moon. I so so so so (ad nauseam) want to quit !!!! Don't you fuc%ing get it. "Success is the only motherf-ing option. Failures not.... You only get one shot. Do not miss your chance.....". Ah.......go figure, what's real, what's desperation, what's will. Go on, you tell me, have you quit recently whilst maintaining an equble disposition??? You did, well done, but chances are you didn't have a habit. I want to leave a trace of the insanity, the screaming, pleading, desperation, will, agony, ecstacy, insanity, of this moment. I AM going to do it. I AM going to do it. [God what a sad fucker if he fails, with such intent!] Stares at you.....burning holes with his pained wide black eyes..........Man ........ this is not fun........ but it's not impossible............what do I cling to......my son.....my wife.....my sanity........my integrity.....(no)..........shear bloody minded stubornness.....God..........anyone who got through the withdrawals, what did you guys cling to????? I'm going to cling to my evil sense of humour.....yes I am ..... above all the others....... however much I end up debasing myself ................in 8/9 hours so the master plan goes I am sent off into the wild unknown....with for a push 5mg yes 5mg of methadone. Don't think an "opiate naive" would even notice that little. Screams....howls once more.....junk sickness............it's so.....er......sui generis.......(you know like something not like other things.....)......laughs.......

[yaba]

Only read bits, think someone needs help ! Swim is UK and works in the mental health.. Make the phone call or go to a hospital (mental one would be better )

There is help out there, all the best to you !

[Richard_smoker]

Ok, i'll give you this little piece of advise... if you're gonna be doing this on your own, i'd at least give yourself a LITTLE bit of leeway on the alcohol thing. I mean, seriously... think about how long you have (probably) been on methadone and other opiates.

On paper, it probably looks better to avoid alcohol during and after detox. But in reality, after tapering down to zero that quickly, i think you might just find yourself in a pretty tight spot.

And, granted--alcohol isn't the answer to anyone's problems, but it might just help one take the 'edge' off for the first few days of serious withdrawal. What do you think about this?

-DICK

[Dickon]

Caveat Lector. I may be lying when I say...

Thanks Yaba, but what help is there? I've withdrawn in one of the top UK rehabs, and it only made it easier because the mind was kept on track. There is only so much that can be done to aleviate w/ds otherwise there would be far fewer (using) addicts! As for going to the nut house what would I say? I'm no more mentally ill than usual. I'm just in varying amounts of pain, that I'm trying to vent in words. My wife read everying I wrote and understood it all. I know in certain moods I communicate gnomically, or in metaphore, but I can equally well talk in plain English, as now.

Thanks Richard. You're got a new fan: my wife! I see pros and cons to the whole alcohol thing. Yesterday I had my first night on the town with the boys in years. I really enjoyed it, and at times forgot how shit I was feeling. It can help to kill time. I'm also using it particularly when combined with loud music to release demons. It doesn't really take the edge off w/ds. Honestly I'd say it makes them worse. It does help in some ineffable way. It gives as it takes. The main cons are 1) Loss of self-control. So far I've been violently dedicated to obtaining my goal at all costs, and drinking hasn't changed that. So this may not be a valid consideration, and 2) Alcohol in excess (and alcohol in moderation is not a realistic option for me at the moment) is going to slow the needed healing that my body must go through. The most important usual concern, waking up feeling hungover is less important as I've been drinking sufficiently to not wake up with hangovers. If I drink after an absense I'm prone to get the hangover from hell, but actually the mornings after drinking have not been so bad the last few days, more washed out and calm as I've mentioned once before. We'll see.


OK to business......After a really vile night, made only slightly bearable with 3 .75mg clonodines and 3 50mg diclofenacs, today at 4.30am I took 5mg methadone. Now the plan (All reverence The Plan! The Plan is good! The Plan is perfect! Image: many accolites in monastic habits prostrating themselves in front of a stone alter, on which is an elaborate scroll --- the plan itself. Candles providing the light. Sigils on the walls and floors, maybe angelic maybe demonic) says that that's that. So I am now six and a quarter hours into the great void. I suppose I get 24 hours of relative grace, and then it's time to see if Dr D is a man or a mouse. Place your bets, place your bets! Will this lunatic pass through hell to reach Elysium?

So how is your favourate desperado this morning? In a word sensitive. Not spontaneous orgasm sensitive, but emotionally labile (I think that's the mot juste) But I'm strapping my 6 guns on, and my cowboy hat, and I'm preparing for the coming war. No, I'm going to imagine myself a Samurai, I will do some sword cuts later, something I've not done for ages. I wonder how much better it will be coming off 5mg than my original 225? The boy has done incredibly well so far. He has exceeded expectations. But I've no idea if I've solved 95.556% of my problem by getting down to 5mg or 0%. It's probably somewhere between the two, but I've no idea which. The rate (expressed in mgs/hour not expressed as a percentage of the total) at which methadone is leaving my body is going to slow soon. I'm too tired to do the maths right now.

Once again any POSITIVE thoughts, useful suggestions, etc., are gratefully received. Just feeling heard by someone makes a difference somehow. Once again thanks Richard for listening to me, I know it's kind of impersonal, but there's a strange intimacy in this form of communication.

Love to all, and I'm on hand to help out anyone else in a similar boat in any small ways that I can. I'd say I have a good theoretical and practical acquaintance with w/ds.

Keep smiling

Dr D

Dickon added 364 Minutes and 25 Seconds later...

It may or may not be true that......

It's approaching 5pm, and as I'm at a loose end I guess I'll just gabble to myself. My wife has gone out with our son to a bookshop in the centre of town a couple of miles away. I've not had a drink, nor had the antabuse. So that's a compromise. In fact I've found since taking the multivitamins drinking has been a much more take-it-or-leave-it thing. Earlier on in this reduction I was counting the minutes to noon, which is the earliest I allow myself to drink. I've just gone for a 2 mile or so walk. I'm feeling lethargic, which is in major part due to the clonodine, although I've only taken it in the night so far. I'm trying to save them for the night as that is my pons asinorum (most difficult problem). I am far from screaming in pain which is a blessing, but I hate this foot-dragging lethargy. The walk was not a struggle exactly, but I had something of a slothful gate, draging myself almost. That's maybe overstating the case, but it was not a jaunty walk. The good news is that when I said 95.6667%, I've actually done 97.7778% of the dose reduction to get from 225mg to 5mg.

I am trying to cling to the hope that one medical artical I read is correct which stated the worse w.d.s on a taper that seemed fairly similar to mine occur between either 30-40mg or less often 10-20mg. If it is I've suffered the worst already! I know that's all but certainly blind optimism. But even on methadone I think w.d.s have peaked after 5-7 days. I have no idea how to see today. I took 5mg of methadone, and normally a dose should hold me for 24 hours. So is today just a shadow of tomorrows main events? I know it's going to be hard to get through not taking a morning dose however small. I will just have to stuff myself with pills and see if it helps. One thing I forgot to mention on my list of supplements was Omega 3,6,and 9 oils.

Tick tock, Tick tock, the painful clock.
Cold lethargy, pained indifference,
Dragging myself half-closed-eyedly forward.
Tired sleeplessness. Clammy and dirty.

No, not yet got the writing thing going. I am just too tired to write good stream of consciousness stuff. Keep trying. I am winning!! Despite everything else. I'll no doubt come back to waffle more later. I think I'm off for a hot bath now and some clean clothes. I would not be able to do this without my wife who's looking after me and things. God it's such a blessing having such a loving understand person at my side.

Love to all

D

[Richard_smoker]

well, sounds like you're getting somewhere.

EXPECT that you've already been through the worst of it, but don't be SURPRISED to find that there's still another 'hump' to climb until you're home-free.

it sounds like you made it through the day relatively unharmed. Now, tomorrow is your trial by fire.

I was just thinking to myself that in a sober world, sleep is our only escape. perhaps you should do whatever it takes to get some sleep today / go to bed early tonight.

i'm not sure what is available in England to help one sleep. In the US, we have an over-the-counter allergy medicine that works pretty well. Many people find they require huge doses to effectively 'knock themselves out' during trying times like these. It's Benadryl (diphenhydramine). requirements for this situation can range from 75mg to 200mg for heavy sleep.

otherwise, keep up the clonidine et al.

if you've got a dog (or not), you can push yourself to get outside and jog around the block... this will help you more than ANYTHING. just don't forget the ibuprophen or other over-the-counter pain-reliever for the muscles. otherwise, it will be your only run for the next 5 days.

best of luck. godspeed. -DICK

[dyingtomorrow]

Which do SWIY'all think is worse - snorting H withdrawal, methadone withdrawal, or IV H withdrawal?

SWIM would say IV H is the worst, followed closely by methadone, with snorting H in far 3rd.

I actually ask this for the sake of my next question - SWIM is on bupe and wants to know how it would rank next to these.

[Richard_smoker]

i don't know, but it really depends on HOW you get off the bupe, how long you've been on it, and at what dose. if you plan your taper correctly, you can take advantage of the agonist/antagonist properties as well as the super-long half life. these combine to give bupe powerful anti-withdrawal properties even as low as 0.1mg dosing.

-DICK

[Dickon]

Caveat lector. All I say could be lies....

Listen very carefull for I shall say this only once.....

Thanks Dick (I kept confusing that with my name, but of-course my name is just an old varient of Richard!) for the advice once again. The sleep thing is the killer. It's what turns you into a jibbering wreck. I started to get mild visual halucinations from sleep deprivation when I did my other methadone withdrawal. I asume the stuff your talking about is some kind of first-generation anti-histamine. I am scared to take the sleep-inducing anti-histamines, because although they might bring sleep, I have always experienced really bad hang-over effects that could send me off-beam. The good news is that through the taper part of this thing I've been getting a good 5 hours sleep a night even at the end. It's something I'll bear in mind but again it would be a last resort if I simply was going to crack. One or two or possibly even three nights sleep deprivation should be doable. After that it gets distinctly nastier. But I've had 5 minutes sleep tonight, after I went for a lie down after my bath at 6ish. It's now 9 and I'm going to stay up for a bit, and then lie down again. It's the muscle aches and the need to twitch out legs (not so much) and stretch until it hurts that's killing me. I've been sneezing more, yawning and crying unemotionally, which is the first time these particular w.d. symptoms have presented. What are we missing? No real anxiety, racing heart (no doubt because of the clonodine), and no diarrhoea.

Running (we've a Bengal cat, no dogs, so no companion) is out of the question for a while. Clonodine turns me into such a zombie, but when I get through the worst of the accute phase I shall no doubt be doing just that. I love excercise when I'm clean, and I'll probably put on some loud music and throw myself about the room until I collapse in a sweaty mess !!



Dying tomorrow,

I read recently one study that concluded all things being equal that if you injected x mg of heroin per day, your withdrawal would be comparable to the withdrawal of someone who snorted 5x mg of heroin per day. So if you injected a gramme a day, you'd experince the same withdrawal as someone who smoked 5 grammes a day. Of course as Dick says, length of use, use profile, etc., would all make this at best a rough rule of thumb.

I think the general consensus is that methadone is worse than heroin withdrawal although some say it last longer but is less intense. There may be some truth in that. I've only withdrawn from snorting fairly large quantities of heroin and oral morphine. I'd say there was not much to chose between them. William Burroughs, who's godlike literary status should not lend extra credence to what he says (he spouts a lot of shit among a lot of pearls) believed that oral opiate use was much harder to stop than i.v. use.

I've never come off i.v. heroin, except via methadone, but when I last came off methadone I was mainlining at least some of it. I have no idea if the i.v. component contributed to the particularly nasty w.d.

As for the bupe, as I said somewhere else, it has the advantage over M as Dick says of being only a partial mu agonist, being a partial mu antagonist also, it binds very tight to the receptor which is why in overdose the usual opiate antagonists don't work. There's an elephant carphentanyl-or similar reversing strong antagonist, that would work, but I don't think it's available for humans. Bupe has a very long half-life, 2-3 times that of methadone on average (of course half-lives vary wildly between individuals, especially that of methadone), but I can't see how that can be anything but a bad thing. I've heard the withdrawal from LAAM (a derivative of methadone used for drug treatment briefly in the USA. It has a 2/3 day half-life, and is given 3 times a week I think) can last several months, c/f a few weeks to a month for methadone, and 10-14 days for morphine/heroin/etc.

Of course one of the most important points is, as the song goes, "it ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it". I've got a good friend who was not a diletante, with 15-20 years loyal service to the cause, who claims he withdrew entirely painlessly from methadone. It took him 18 months, and he cut down to some minimal dose and then used lofexidine (another a-2 adrenergic agonist, similar to clonidine. I'm not sure if it's available across the pond). He started from a normalish dose, I think it was 90mg/day. That way might suit some people, but I am way too impatient for such a long withdrawal.

One thing I'm always sceptical of is the fact that the slow taper ought to be an all but foolproof and painless way to quit. Yet 99% (I'm guessing here - don't quote this as a statistic) of people who sail off to the happy sunset of freedom in this particular boat don't seem to make it. My only theory for this is that if you are determined to do something, it is only possible to maintain iron determination for a limited period. OK if over the course of a years reduction you have just one day when you mentally hit the fu(k it button then there goes the taper. It seems to take a lot of courage to get back on the horse, and I think a lot of people don't do it.

I have also found through several succesful and many unsuccesful withdrawal attempts, is that nearly all of the successful ones have been ones I've seen through with iron determination. I think a lot of users think it's a "good idea" to quit in some hazy way, and the idea of doing it painlessly sounds great, but theres a huge difference between the level of sincerity of those who want to quit. I've known people who were not initially that sincere, but who manage to make it through, stay clean and subsequently grasp a zeal for staying clean do so for years at a time. Thus this is no hard and fast rule, but I'd say it's a good rule of thumb.

Freedom is there for you dyingtoday, if you want it bad enough.

Well the clonodine has me wiped. I'm going to gag down 3 valerians (I hate the smell), finish my camomile tea, and try for another bout of sleep. I feel really tired, and all in all, my situation being taken into account not at all bad. If the plan is followed I am about to end my last day on the methadone.

God or absense-of-God bless you all, good wishes, and happy trails.

Night night (yawns - half-really half-w.d.ly)

D

[Dickon]

I might be lying when I say.....

I wrote an update a few hours ago that eithe vanished into the ether, or is being sent to a moderator for approval (if true, could something I say be a red-flag ) . Well it's 1.40 in the morning now. I'm still on track!!! So this is the second hour of my first opiate-free day, assuming the bitch-whore dusn't make me her bitch (I want to know if theres a way to spell something phoneticall be - atch) again.

Night all

D

[Richard_smoker]

no way. you're standing at the doorway right now!

I'm giving you a standing ovation...hope that you're catching the positive waves of ESP. hang in there.
-DICK

[Dickon]

It may or may not be true that...[an elephant said to a pygmy once....]

It's coming up for 8am. An essentially sleepless nght (I was so exhausted, and might have blacked out 5 minutes here or there), and I'm still shattered. I gobbled up clonodine and diclofenac as if they were going out of fashion. But let's accentuate the positive and realize I'm over 27 hours away from the last 5mg of my methadone taper. I feel washed out, but am about to have, probably, my only cup of real tea today. I'm sticking to herbals mostly, chamomile and peppermint, to avoid insomnia and anxiety. As you can probably gather, I'm much less fun now than I was a few days back! God this is becoming one of those "At 1pm I had a shit, at 2pm I brushed my teath kind of factual drawls". But hey, Dr D is in there somewhere, and more mischief, mayhem, fun and frollicks will follow. So please forgive me for not being the most jovial host today. I deeply regret that despite insisting I was going to enjoy this particular methadone withdrawal, I'm not enjoying it quite as much as I should be [Still manages to blow a rasperry at the bitch-godess of addiction, but somewhat half-heartedly]. Repeats to self "I can do it" "I can do it".......That's better. Now no more whining D. We all know it's not how we wish to spend Christmas. Positive, positive, posiitve. I feel a bit better just writing that. I feel even better now I've got my tea, and bought a cup up to my wife in bed. It's important to take from people when quitting I think. Be demanding, especially if the chances of you succeeding are made greater by those demands. But it's also really nice to be able to perform small kindnesses. In my present state, that's all I'm likely to provide.

Everyone, keep beaming the positive thoughts and energy, the next few days are a doorway (thanks Dick, good metaphore!). No doubt I'll be back later for more boring factual details, witty suggetions, happy thoughts, and my typically hedonistic way to enjoy the fight with the life-sucking-c-word-f-word-death-bitch. (singing) "Ha ha ha, he, he, he, I'm a laughing gnome and you can't catch me", frolicks off into the happy morning

Dr D

Dickon added 192 Minutes and 21 Seconds later...

P.S. (in reply to Dick's advice about diphenhiramine). It's anticholinergic, i.e. it in some part emulates scopolamine, hyoscine, atropine, as found in Belladona -aka deadly nightshade or Datura etc. I think that's why I don't like it. In fact I've been using promethazine, that as well as being anticholinergic also acts as an antipsychotic. I don't know if you've ever tried any of those "liquid coshes". Fun and good times? There were none. But I'm still lothe to try this except in extremis. I'm not in a Russian Roullete mood yet. If I get there, that might be the gun I use!! Love to all as always, (waves: singing)" 30 hours, 31 in a couple of minutes. Way hay. Go boy go!!! Kick that evil monkey til it's spitting blood in a filthy gutter, with every bone in its body brokwn!!". {A rather aching and tired Dr D sticks a finger up at his foe, smiles to his friends and disappears for now}


Dickon added 179 Minutes and 10 Seconds later...

It may or not be true that....

I'm back singing "la la ...etc.....Dance me to your beauty with your burning violin" or at least listening to it, ... "dance me to the end of love". I've done a little walking, even 2/300 yards (metres) jogging, and got in the car and drove aimlessly for half an hour. But little is helping, although this Leonard Cohen song has at least got me feeling emotional, on the verge of tears. It's so lovely to be a sentient human being in embryo, even if a slightly thicker skin would be nice. So, what can I do. I've managed to eat somewhat, and am drinking lots of herbal tea and water. But I'm at the frozen time stage, where there is nothing I can do except gain whatever distraction I can from the stagnancy of time. In rehab there was a good phrase people said "The hours seem like days, and the weeks seem like days". I suppose the next time some folk clicheifies that "time just goes by so fast!", you could recommend a 12 month course of God's Own Medicine, and let them see just how quickly time goes by when they stop. {Dr D smiles and bows, thinking to himself "what a clever toad I am: always full of such USEFUL advice}. Heck, you're free to leave any time! Don't have to listen to me, but I have got to fight and get through this less than easy time somehow, so if I hijack my own thread, surely that's ok!! Guess what, my missing post has magically appeared. I don't know if it did so by itself or because I was pestering Alfa about it. At least I got the royal consent for my take on self-incrimination as an added bonus. I so loath "SWIM" "SWIY", etc. Well of course the I stands for "is" not "isn't". I just figured maybe I stands for individual, and you stands for (go figure this out foryeslf - i've not worked it out). But may I propose my style to anyone else sick with SMIMMERS. Someone else who clearly thought like me started a post with "I had a dream...." or some such. Where's the imagination? OK I'm a fine one to talk, but maybe everyone could try and think of a new non-self-inctimination device. Just a thought! And a better thought than "oh how sick I feel now. Wouldn't it be nice....". The good Doctor is not tempted, despite having to get out some clonidine from behind his methadone. This is not as crazy as it sounds, because I could get a bus into town and buy 40mg of morphine quite legally (ain't England great), and that would be infinitely preferable to old grey methadone. But no, D is not going to fail at that hurdle today! D has had more than enough of all opiates. The plan must be followed. 33 and a bit hours gone, what's the next biggy. 35, then 40, then 45, then 48. I've done cures with the stuff around, and it not being around makes no difference. That's what I've found. But I don't think this is advice for most folk. So far I have gone 37 days with only 2 days I did not drop. The second one when I wanted to check whether 225mg would hold me as I'd been using more, and one day after a somewhat enforced 40mg drop from 215mg to 175mg. The first 175mg day was not the best day! Please someone ask me some questions, or give me some advice, and stuff to read. I guess I could flit around various threads giving people the beneft of my somewhat limited wisdom. (screams) WWaaahhhhhhhhhhh. The clonidine has driven out any possible good times, by reducing my strength and making me feel somewhat numb (at least as far as numbness and sickness go together!!!) I can't wait to be me again. But I suppose the first day in god-knows-how-long without opiates is not one to be bemoaning the fact one is not quite ones charming best. So if Dr D is a rather twitering wittering pasty-faced buffoon today, bear with him. I promiss the D who's going to be out to play in a few weeks, maybe even days, will be worth the wait. Watch this space.....or perhaps it would be better to wait....unless you want to watch how junk-sickness is hard, and makes it difficult to smile, play, and be a good host! I'm trying, but must look after number 1 for at least a few more days.

(Wraps himself in a black cape, turns into a bat (a cricket bat that is), and flies off, throwing one more vicious barb into the side of the now terrified bleeding beast snorting in anger at not getting D to use today so far)

Love and warm fuzzies where appropriate

D

Dickon added 252 Minutes and 21 Seconds later...

It may or may not be true that...

I'm talking to myself. That's one way to get at least semi-intelligent conversation, or at least semi-intelligent soliloquy. 6pm now, so 6 hours to get through the first calendar day and then 4 1/2 hours to reach 48 hours. Easy (Yes you heard me easy. This boy writes a guarantee in his own blood that he will make it until 4.30 tomorrow morning without opiates.) OK I must watch out for the scary confidence, but so far what is dragging me down is physical lousiness. I'm not struggling with a desire to take drugs. I am the man with the plan! I do not mean it's going to be anything but extremely painful as the nights are far worse than the days. But I am confident that however bad it gets I will not succumb. At least not before 4.30 tomorrow!! Now of course how I've felt so far is no guarantee of feeling that way for ever. But so far, so far good. Jesus, I quit from 200mg of methadone or more (including significant iv portion) in 2 days in a rehab whos medical program was frankly unenlightened. I think I had 6 or 8 clonodines a day and that was that! I also quit benzos on a 10 day reduction at the same time. So I was getting some lousy taper from about 75mg librium (chlordiazepoxide). Some time previously I'd been taking inordinate amounts of benzos and decided to cold turkey while using the M. and ended up having a fit. So I resumed again at a dose of about 3-5 pills (valium, librium, temazepam) a day. Down from a maximum of 100 (10mg)valiums one day (ok I was not using anything like this daily, but 20-40 pills probably was average, 60 common, and I remember 90 20mg temazis one night (3 * 30) and the 100 valium which I can't remember how I split through the day). Anyway the details are irrelevant, the point is once I got my obstinacy and humour on I was good to go despite having hands trembling so much I couldn't hold a cup of coffee unless it was about half full. I developed a fairly serious stammer at the same time. I couldn't even speak properly. Thank God memory only leaves the vaguest shadow of bad things. No objective explanation of w.d. gives a sense of the real pain which lies inside! I know it was really hard, but can't think myself back there for a few seconds to make me realize how lucky I am now. But I'm still going to try. I'm even luckier having a wife who's doing her best to look after me, now that I'm as week as a kitten!

Guess what I found my old mix tape from when I was in secondary treatment all those years ago. The only tape recorder in the house wouldn't rewind it so I had to use a pencil but thankfully I can still play it. It brings back positive memories of being drug-free and sometimes very happy. If it hadn't been for a bitch from hell I fell naively (post withdrawal naivity! remember that folks) and the death of my father, the thing would have been more fun. The awful thing is that the woman treating me like shit after initially seeming to be friendly upset my equilibrium more than the death of my father. Living with someone like that cheek-by-jowl in a rehab is not fun.

Now I have to make a decision. Do I throw my lot in with N.A.? I'm thinking no, but meetings are quite useful places to kill an hour or an hour of time. I think I would like to get clean on my own terms and maybe go to meetings later if I feel I need it. I really hate the whole "the only way to get clean is in NA" spiel. We are not sausages, extruded in equal shapes into identical skins. However so far in life the only two times I've managed to get anywhere without using drugs was when I did throw my lot in with these guys. OK maybe now I can take the good and seperate it from the bad. Anyway I think I will not go to the 8pm meeting tonight as it's about 10 miles away, and I'm feeling way too tired. It had crossed my mind as a thought, but let's wait.

{Yawns}{twitches}Let me get 2 hours sleep tonight and I'll be a happy-ish man. At least a happier one than if I get another 0 hours or occasional 5 minute black outs. But unless the taper is not as bottom heavy as I suspect, that's not a likely prospect. I might have several more nights without sleep. Oh well, it will be something to look forward too!

That's probably it for today, or I might come back one more time. 5 and a bit hours to get through the first day. Not too long -- except in w.d. time!

Love to all and a raspberry to the foe

D

[Richard_smoker]

well, again, i gotta say--so far, so good.

congratulations on the 'jumping off.'

no one said this part would be easy... and i dare say that you were expecting the current shit situation.

One thing to ponder in this situation:

There are 1 of 2 ways you can view this situation.
1. life sucks. everything's shitty. how will i make it out alive?

2. you can savor every last moment of the situation. you can realize that during this very difficult time, that there are still many things worth living for.

swim used his rigors/shakes to bond with his small, needy dog...instead of simply shaking, he actually burned that nervous energy by aggressively petting his dog and repeating mantras.

i.e. "one step at a time," "you're such a good boy--daddy loves you."

• this went on for several hours, and the dog didn't even seem to mind. in fact, i think he liked it. and, believe it or not, just bonding with another loving, living thing gave him great comfort for some reason.

You can actually take in the 'bad' feelings by welcoming them...in the words of NLP-founder, Richard Bandler, he quit smoking in the following way:

"every time I felt the urge to smoke, I would double that feeling...then double it again. Eventually, I was quivering with excitement...and, i knew that if i smoked a cigarette, i would ruin that feeling."

But I guess there's different strokes for different folks. During swim's most trying times of withdrawal, somehow, he was able to capitalize on a certain delirium, and his entire life flashed before his eye. he achieved some quite profound realizations, approached enlightenment (somehow), and began to know and understand himself better.

I have a website for you to check out. It is an instant drug/booze habit destroyer. There's no meetings, no "addict for life" bullshit. and best of all, it's free online. I read it last night and I was MOVED. It is based on the concept that we do NOT have a disease and we do NOT need meetings. Instead, it revolves around the idea of quitting now, forever. no relapses. you can learn to 'hear' your addictive voice, and basically tell it to shut the fuck up.

there's the link. Even if you're not interested, you gotta go thru the quick slideshow. It might be the most inspiring bit of information that I've ever stumbled upon.

keep your head up. don't hesitate to post here WHENEVER you get the crazy idea to use.

all the best.
-DICK

Reputation Comments on this post:

Really helpful advice. Thanks.

[Dickon]

It may or may not be true that....

Thanks Dick, I really enjoyed the slide show, I've seen the site before, I think I've even read a book on Rational Recovery a long time ago. Definite favourite was "......" , "bla.bla.bla......bla", ..., "SAID THE BEAST". I thought I had it then came a cropper at the last hurdle. I'm fairly sure it was the beast who came out with the wonderful "what if you end up in hospital and need opiates for pain......". Was on the verge of writing "I will not use or drink ever again", in all sincerity. I think the BEAST can live for a genuine medical need and I'm not quite sure I'm ready to forego the use of strong painkillers in medical situations. I wonder if R.R. has an answer to that. They must do. I don't suppose you know what it is?

All the best

D

Dickon added 2 Minutes and 1 Seconds later...

P.S. I am curious about your story? You seem remarkably well informed, and a nice guy, so it's a blessing to me when you stumbled onto this thread.

[dyingtomorrow]

I second his P.S. - Richard is the best! would love to hear his story.

[Richard_smoker]

to be honest, i have a long background in NLP and hypnosis and science and health care. suffice it at that. when i was a kid, i was dubbed class clown and 'too smart for my own good.'

now, however, i'm afraid that that my jovial spirit has departed. I'm boring now. Drugs will burn up your love, motivation, willpower, etc. I'm really hoping that when this shit is all over, i can go back to my old self. -DICK

[Dickon]

Maybe...

Guess who's back, Dickon's back, la la la la la la. It's 5 minutes or so from hour 50 now. I slept!! Would you believe it, maybe as much as 3 or 4 hours. It wasn't the deep and dreamless sleep of the virtuous but it sure beat tossing and turning all night in a sweaty heap. Oddly tonight is the first night I did sweat somewhat, but was more moist than dripping wet. Dr D's helpful hint on clucking (an English word for w.d.-ing. I don't know how universal it is): Wear stuff in bed. I usually sleep naked, but the friction of body against bed-clothes which is really noticable at this time is definitely made better wearing stuff.

This sleep on my first drug-free night is a miracle. Maybe all these weird and wacky pills and potions I'm taking are helping. I took only 2 clonidine and 2 diclofonac, one of each once then ditto a little under an hour later. I have not reached the point of being able to lie still, but I was able to lie stillish. I remember a w.d. I did in Crete. I was only using 40-60mg morphine orally daily (which is easy to get legally over here. It involved drinking 2-300 mls of some fairly gacky medicine) and even skipping days. This brings up an interesting point that seems to give the lie to how I understand half-life. If the half life of morphine is at a fairly high estimate 4 hours, and I am a thin nervy person, who certainly sees himself as a quick metabolizer so this is likely a high estimate, in 48 hours I'd undergo 12 half-lives, so starting with 40 mg, and waiting 2 days, which I could do at the time without w.d.ing, the amount of morphine in my system would be about 40/(4 *1024) mg, so about 0.01 mg. Talk about a subtheraputic level, I think that is sub-sub-subtheraputic, using each sub to represent an order of magnitude (sorry, in case this is gobbledegook to you, an order of magnitude is a factor of ten. So if 10mg oral morphine is a minimal theraputic dose, subtheraputic (by my definition) would be about 1mg, sub-sub-t~[I'm going to use ~s when what follows is obvious. I'm gassy enough as it is so I'll try and save a bit of space] would be 0.1mg, and thus 0.01mg would be sub-sub-sub-t~). So either the body can get used to a very very low dose of an opiate and still enter w.d.s or there is something wrong with the half-life theory. Of course I should know this: there are drugs with so-called 0-th order elimination profiles (I think some of the super-short-acting barbiturates used in anisthesia fall into this category), which essentially means over a reasonable spectrum of dose-loads, the rate of elimination is constant over time. I'd hassard a medically uneducated guess, but one which I have a good reason to believe that these drugs move closer to 1-st order profiles (i,e, the usual half-life model) when the amount of drug in the body gets low. [OK, here's my theory. Totally my own idea. Could be 100% wrong. At high doses the 0-~ is caused by there being a bottleneck in the production of a chemical (enzyme probably) responsible for the metabolism of the drug. So let's imagine the liver produces up to x units of Enzyme Orange ever minute unless there is the correct amount in the liver at which point production of Enzyme Orange is halted. When there's enough of the drug in the system to mop up all the Enzyme Orange we are in a 0-~ situation. Now at some point there is so little of the drug that over time the liver is able to manufacture Enzyme Orange over time until it's "full-up" again. Between 0 and full-up we have a hybrid elimination profile, but once the liver is full-up we are back to a 1-~ situation. Dr D in his most plausable manner takes a bow] So it strikes me this is almost certainly a chance that thinking half-lives is at best an approximation. Just a thought, to borrow an image from Nabokov, I'm just happily playing tiddly-winks with my thoughts. I wish I could remember the phrase. It's wonderful, but I can't even get a plausable mis-quote[winking thoughts like happy tiddles into a cup is the rough idea]. It's somewhere in L.o.l.i.t.a (just in case the dumb computer gets the wrong idea and thinks I'm talking about something entirely different!). Post it to me if you know it anyone! OK digression in digression over, digression over, back to Crete. I didn't sleep for a few nights (or at least slept very minimally), but there came a phase before sleep returned to me when I could lie still in bed. That time I realized that it wasn't the sleep-deprivation so much as the inability to rest the body that was the problem. I can't remember anything comparable from any other w.d. but if anyone else knows what I'm on about let me know!

Right I think I'm up to date with everything I was gassing on about! So how is Your Humble Narrator (winks at Dick) this morning. In a word up-beat. He has a mouth that is resting with up-turned corners, rocking back-and-forth in a sing-song sort of way (as opposed to the mentally ill kind of rocking) with a song in his heart. I know w.d.s are prone to come in waves, but this feeling of improvement has lasted much longer than my usual waves of good or bad that last in the hours. I think it's fair to say I've paid the piper. Maybe there's a shilling or two left, but I like to hope I haven't grossly mis-accounted. If someone up there likes me, (I am very very nice. Honest), tonight I won't need the clonidine, and then I'll really be rocking and rolling! OK just to let you know I am still very week, maybe more a puppy than a kitten today, and have a wonderful mischievous idea that is making me smirk childishly. I plan to go see my Methadone woman at the next appointment and rip up a prescription in front of her. Little things please tiny minds!

Dick, I have to say that the petting the dog thing has me roaring with laughter, a kind of laugh I've not know in ages! Thank you for that vignette. Sadly I can't take advantage of the advice, as I'm not shaking. I'm not sure if that's to the chagrin or delight of the cat. I think shakes are more an alcohol/benzo withdrawal thing! Maybe I could just shake from the cold!

La, la, la, la....I'm going to get my mischief on, and tweak the nose of the giant pixxy (where's that image from?). This feeling might just be a respite, but let's hope it's the light at the end of the tunnel, and not some white sheet put there by a coyote: beep beep!

Prima lux is now upon us, although in a very dingy sort of way. [opens curtains]. Looks like it's going to be a beautiful day though when it gets going. Not like yestrerdays rain-dog. Christ, I've been writing for over an hour, and now I've got to hour 51. Well, I hope you've enjoyed reading this as much as I've enjoyed writing it! I think I'll go off for a dawn walk if I can find some socks.

[D hovering 6ft above the ground stares down black-eyed at the monster lying mutilated on the ground below him, gasping and wheezing out it's few last breaths. D glares, calmly, not one ounce of pity in his warriors heart.]

Love, fluffies, and happy trails (spinning on a six-pence is such fun!). I've got to get on and enjoy the rest of my w.d.

D

Dickon added 54 Minutes and 27 Seconds later...

P.S. I've just returned from a walk, where I was punching the air, almost exploding out of my skin in happiness. I'm quite a bit more downbeat now but have to share what I would have as a signature, if I did not think repetition in extremis an error. So listen very carefully I shall say this only once [I confess I've watched all of 'allo 'allo recently]:

Spayley put forth no pictures of massive babies springing up with fungus-like rapidity under its forcing influence, or of representatives of the leading nations of the world scrambling with fatuous eagerness for its possession

I can't think of a better sentence in the English language. P.G.Wodehouse might well have produced one, or maybe Shakespeare. But for me any sentence that combines "fungus-like rapidity", "forcing influnce"(in this context, i.e. of Rhubarb), and "fatuous eagerness" is a jewel of great price! It's in a short story (2-3 pages) by Saki called "Filboid Studge: The story of a mouse that roarer", and for anyone feeling gloomy I'd recomend it whole-heartedly. It is very hard to read aloud without bursting into tears of laughter.

[D wonders off to the bedroom to take his own advice, feeling particular gratified of his Saki book which was a prize for being some kind of smug little too-clever-by-half tyke when he was at school, pausing to say his school song was called "dulce domum" (i.e. home sweet home, basically lamenting how awful being detained at school over some holiday is). I just thought that might raise a smile in anyone touched by the imp of the perverse today!]

Dickon added 1 Minutes and 10 Seconds later...

^^^

roared not roarer obviously

Dickon added 60 Minutes and 38 Seconds later...

I state this honestly and categorically, and write it in my own blood:

I shall never drink again and never use drugs recreationally again. In the event I have a medical condition I shall be honest and upfront with the doctor, and shall take what I am prescribed in accordance with the prescription.

Dickon added 32 Minutes and 52 Seconds later...

P.S.

I've taken out all the methadone in the house, and given it back to the chemist like a reponsible citizen along with a little morphine I had in an all but undrinkable form, and am now gettin a big kiss from my wife! Doubt not the good doctor, he is committed!

[sails off into the unknown......feeling somewhat scared at having burnt his bridges....]

Dickon added 46 Minutes and 55 Seconds later...

SM who very much is M has gone 54 hours without using drugs or drinking. I've just had a shave which I promissed myself when I quit, I was in the early beard phase before, but am now my much more usual clean-shaven self. I look so much more handsome (D allows himself a very rare Narcissus moment). As hour succeeds hour I feel strength returning. I've opened the living room windows to the coolish autumn air. This is a positive change from the hot-house I've been living in for a while. I am downloading some T.V. show episodes to watch, as I'm not yet ready to tackle the somewhat messy house. I think my weakness comes from the clonidine, as I might have already said. I am sure I'm into what I call "shadow withdrawals", and having sworn in blood never to use again I'm not self-divided. It's going to be an interesting alternative to N.A. But N.A. only worked for me for periods of 23 and 17 months. The last meeting I went to had me using 9 days into a (legally obtained {since I think I have chosen to incriminate myself in this post. But just in case I slip up read my first post}) morphine detox, either on the day of the meeting, or more probably the next day. I was over the hump, but was still very groggy on benzos and clonidine, and just got some stupid bollocking from the secretary that I shouldn't be taking clonidine un-medically-supervised. If I'd have got some love that meeting I might (I stress might) have got out painlessly ages ago. That was my one near-painless near-detox, but I was only on 40mg morphine daily. The routine was something like 8 clonidine (4 lots of 2) a day and enough benzos to put you in a stupour. My back is aching which is a nuisance, so I'm off for a quick lie down.

semolina pilchard and crab-a-locker fishwives to one and all as appropriate

Dr D

Dickon added 433 Minutes and 5 Seconds later...

maybe....

Someone is alone on here! But heck I'm going to give myself a pat on the back for making 60 hours. I got not 1 but 4 cards from my lovely wife today and some nice herbal relaxing gifts. I am now an ex-addict, it's gobsmackingly awesome. The remaining w.d.s are the worlds smallest price for this joy. I've had the runs but not too badly, which I think is about the last w.d. symptom I owe to the piper. I've had a lovely hot bath, and have been writing enless posts on here, and going for short walks. My mental upness is far outweighing any physical downness, and I'm going to try to get through tonight without clonidine and see how I feel tomorrow. Who knows, I'm certainly not going to go massochistic on myself but think I might make it!

Oh one last point (Grinning maniacally) I've finally made what I think is an origal contribution to the Opiate-addiction section of this site. It's called "smack the monkey hard. Let of (sic-silly me) steam by abusing that monkey 18+". Here's the link : http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69952 . The idea is to humiliate, debase, laugh at, defrock, castrate, cross-dress, etc. etc. your own personal representation/s of addiction/drugs. If it gets going I think it will be a lot of fun, and also a good place to go for those feeling shakey in recovery and wanting to get a boost! Nothing better than humiliating and laughing at something to cut it down to size. I stress that this is meant to be a thread for broadminded adults. I know the drug-using community is not in general likely to object to the odd cuss word, but those indivduals therein who are, you would best skip at the very least my opening post, and I very much hope that my humble begining will be like a sermon to what follows!

Dr D [reocvering MoJo by the minute]

Dickon added 823 Minutes and 15 Seconds later...

maybe....

Where the fuck has everyone gone. Oh well, Recovery is something one must do for oneself. It's only a fringe benefit if someone else reads this and gets some hope or happiness. [Takes a deep breath and sighs]. So much for what I left on last time, the MoJo has taken a very definite dip. I had a lousy night and had to take 2 clonodine, and ended up getting up at 4.50am, feeling like some kind of washed-out ghost. I did manage 1 or 2 hours sleep. All through yesterday I kept feeling better and better, but now I'm a bit set back. The good news is I'm up to hour 74, and my resolve has not dropped an iota. I seem to be drinking water by the gallon and still pissing out very yellow pee. I guess this is a good sign of detox, but no doubt means I've got a way to go. lol. Well even if my expectations were a little unrealistic, they kept me chearful for the first few days, so all good fun I say!! Last night was just the first night I was really rolling around in a cold wet t-shirt. yuck! I feel freezing, and am finding it less than totally easy to type, despite the fact that I think I've been responsible for most of the posts on this forum for the last 24 hours. I'm sitting here shivering in my overcoat, in what is supposedly (if the thermostat is not lying) a hot room. [Dr D moving like some kind of spectral figure, gets a leather jacket to put under his coat, a scalf, and two pairs of socks, and a cup of peppermint tea, and turns up the heat] Well if the usual mechanics of w.d. are in play this should not be the happy clappy moment of a w.d. but I doubt it's going to get worse. Do your worst stupid monkey, it won't avail you one jot or iota. Y.H.N. (I) has made up his mind, and that's that. So withdrawal symptoms may break my bones, but drugs will never hurt me!! Fuck you and marry me young......I ain't going to quit now.........throw your fucking cuntish bullets at me.....try anything you like you lousy scumbag......I still have a smile on my lips and a song in my heart, even if the flesh is weak, the spirit is willing, and more than able. Dr D is a being of pure spirit and light right now, and he will prevail. Let this be repeated ad nauseam if necessary, "failure is not an option", I wrote my oath in blood, and stand by it. [Just in case there's some weirdo out there who thought I actually did that, please, rest assured, it was just a metaphore!!]. Heck I wonder if there's a prize for the longest post. This one, after I've added this is 5 times longer than any other one I've seen. I've just passed hour 75 !!!! If you said to me 40 days ago when I took 300mg or so of methadone, that 40 days later I'd be 75 hours clean, I'd have paid heavilly for such a result. I must not forget for one moment what an impressive thing I've done. Big up myself, in the horrible vernacular! I am one of the toughest spirits I've ever met. It's a lucky fact that I am very happy with who I am. I am intelligent, interesting, funny, kind, and have a lovely family, and good friends. God I am so lucky to get out without having trashed everything. What I've lost can be rebuilt. Let no addict despair, cleaning up is always better than carrying on. I'm just not a believer in addicts have low pain thresholds and thus need some methadone or somesuch to be normal. Low pain thresholds are countered by good diet, excercise, and a chearful disposition. I know it takes a while after quitting (months - years) to recover a normal pain-threshold the intervening time is exciting, scary sometimes, but fun. Well, let's plan worst case scenarios. I think it is all but impossible that 14 days after a taper down to 5mls I will still feel seriously shit. So that gives me just under 11 days. Ah.....If only I could do one of those Julian-Gregorian calendar shifts (when the people clammered : Give us back our 11 days !!) I'm more than happy to have to have the next 11 days sucked into a void. Maybe not! Theses are exciting times. So let's suck all the pleasure we can out of it. What lessons am I learning. Optimism is good. Knew that. I'm tough when I set my mind on things. Knew that. I have set my mind on this. This is becoming clearer by the minute. I guess it's my number 1 piece of advice to all you folk in the same boat..........do not doubt your original intention. Never doubt it. Stare black-eyed (OK I'm lucky I have very dark brown eyes, I can pass off as black, and black-eyed stares are romantic to me. Silly boy!) over the impending abyss and walk forward off the cliff-edge. Do not look down. Trust yourself, bring out your budo spirit (warrior spirit), and let him carry you when the more social and day-to-day you is not the right animal to be. Visualize a bull charging head-long towards it's goal, nothing in it's way can stop it. I have so got this cracked. I speak with utter conviction. That is scary but excillerating. This demon is slayed. I mean slayed, not wounded. I could just type out mantras again and again "I can do it", "I have done it", "I am in control", "I will prevail", etc. etc. Dawn at last. One more night cracked!! 10 times worse than I'd imagined, but shunt that up to 20 or 50 or even 100, and I will just fight harder. I will do or die trying. It's that simple. well, maybe it's time for a dawn walk. Get some fresh air into this tired and battered body. [sighs]

Love and fluffies to myself at least, and in the unlikely event there's anyone else reading this to them too. Please if you are here, post back something. I am feeling very alone in this forum at the moment.

[Ronnie]

Hi Dickon

I have no experience or knowledge of what you are going through so I cannot help in that way but I am finding your posts interesting, though difficult, to read.

My only suggestions are that somewhere down the line, maybe not right now, you try t'ai chi/chi kung. As an obviously very cerebral person these exercises can help to ground you and can provide a focus for the mind (to stop the 'monkey chatter').

Also, I know that at our local community drugs service (voluntary not statutory) they offer different complementary therapies such as acupuncture, aromatherapy etc. Or find a friendly reiki practitioner which can be deeply calming. Whatever floats your boat

Regards
Ronnie