Pharmacology - Drugs with a prolonged effect similar to mdma?

[Synesthesiac]

I was wondering if there are any drugs/antidepressants that work in the exact same way as mdma does but over longer periods of time? I'm not exactly a whizz at neurochemistry, but wouldn't be surprised to find that some antidepressants work in the same way but more gradually. Though I know that many like prozac and others have bad side effects, so swim wouldn't touch them. I was thinking about things like st johns wort, which only start to show its effects after a week or so of use, the effect is much more gradual and subtle but definately makes a noticeable difference in the long term.

So are there any that can cause a longer term change in positive social behaviour similar to mdma but over longer time scales?

swim has slight social anxiety, nothing major at all, but it totally disappears while on mdma, so a long term drug that has a similar effect would be right up swims street.

[Destiny_JL]

I'm no whizz either but im pretty sure SSRI anti depressants work in a very similar way to MDMA by altering the release / reuptake of seratonin, but in a different timescale. Feel free to correct me

[Synesthesiac]

Originally Posted by Destiny_JL

I'm no whizz either but im pretty sure SSRI anti depressants work in a very similar way to MDMA by altering the release / reuptake of seratonin, but in a different timescale. Feel free to correct me

I think thats pretty much right from searching around on wiki for a bit. MDMA just releases it a hell of a lot quicker, and thus makes you feel like crap afterwards. I wonder how similar in their effects they really are? I know that on SSRI's your not going to get really loved up and amazingly sociable to the extent of mdma, but would be curious if taken in higher doses if a similar, but more long term, effect would happen. I suppose the side effects SSRI's are associated with wouldn't be worth it though.

On another note, anyone tried 2,5-Dimethoxy-4-methylamphetamine (DOM, or STP), the effects of that last about a day apparently, but as with mdma tollerence builds up, so it wouldn't be very good for long term psychological benfits like SSRI's are. Anyone know of any other similar substances like this with longer term effects even than this?

[Panthers007]

DOM discussions belong in Research Chemicals forum. But the answer is no. They operate in totally dissimilar ways. Same as SSRI's and MDMA. From the fact that MDMA and SSRI's effect serotonin is rather like saying LSD and an SSRI must work the same way because they both effect serotonin. It's an utterly overly-broad supposition. Yes - they work on serotonin, but in completely different ways.

Many things affect serotonin levels in the brain. Serotonin is an extremely important neuro-transmitter. But lumping MDMA and Prozac (fluoxetine) together would be like concluding VX (a military nerve-gas) and Jimson Weed are similar because they both act on acetylcholine: In utterly different ways. It doesn't work like that. Keep studying - you're getting closer. But the medical science of these things require a great deal more knowledge of neuro-chemistry and physiology to unravel.

[Synesthesiac]

Originally Posted by Panthers007

Keep studying - you're getting closer.

Think I'm starting to close in now on likely contendors. Just read all (yes, ALL) of a huge and very informative article at biophyschiatry.com entitled "THE GOOD DRUG GUIDE. THE RESPONSIBLE PARENT'S GUIDETO HEALTHY MOOD-BOOSTERSFOR ALL THE FAMILY", which pretty much addresses everything I'm after. Doesn't seem like theres anything amazingly convincing around the corner, but some substances look promising. Its an interesting article if you've got the time, but is certainly not for those predisposed to leave nature alone to sort out biopsychiatric issues.

A few interesting quotes I mined from it;

Apparently by contrast [to stronger more irratic psychedelics], the empathogen "hug-drug" Ecstasy (methylenedioxymethamphetamine; MDMA) offers a wonderfully warm, sensuous, loving, and empathetic peak experience to the first-time user - "a brief fleeting moment of sanity" [Dr Claudio Naranjo]. MDMA enhances the release of serotonin and dopamine at the synaptic terminals; it also inhibits their reuptake. MDMA stimulates pro-social oxytocin release via activation of the serotonin 5-HT1A receptors. In consequence, distrust, suspicion and jealousy evaporate. They are replaced by a serene sense of universal love. The sensorium remains clear. Emotion is intensified. Much recreational drug-use tends to be self-centred. Drug use is often branded as selfish. Yet here is a "penicillin of the soul" which promises to subvert our DNA-driven tendency to self-aggrandisement.

Disappointingly, whether due to enzyme-induction or other causes not fully understood, most users never fully recapture the magic of their first few trips. Moreover, Ecstasy is neurotoxic to serotonergic axons. It may even be harmful at sub-therapeutic doses. As the uncertain process of neural recovery sets in, heavy users in particular may experience the subtle long-drawn-out reversal of all the good effects they initially enjoyed from the drug [.....] So taking Ecstasy scarcely amounts to a full-scale strategy for life either. Ecstasy does, on the other hand, deliver an exquisite foretaste of the beautiful forms of consciousness that ultimately await us.


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Oxytocin is a natural anti-anxiety agent: the "cuddle hormone". Several drug companies, notably Wyeth, are investigating its patentable synthetic analogues. Enhanced oxytocin release contributes to the acute pro-social action of MDMA (Ecstasy). Oxytocin builds trust by reducing activity in the fear-processing circuitry of the amygdala. Taken off-label, oxytocin can be inhaled as an intranasal spray to combat social phobia. It reduces shyness and normal social anxiety. More controversially, oxytocin can be applied as an odourless body-spray to manipulate the responses of other people: "trust in a bottle". Nature's social peptide is also critical to pair-bonding. In future, mastery of the oxytocin system may allow us to control our degree of fidelity and attachment to each other far more effectively than marriage vows. The sociological implications of the widespread use and abuse of "social Viagra" would be far-reaching. It should be stressed that research into the safe and sustainable enrichment of human oxytocin function has barely begun.

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Traditionally, serotonin and noradrenaline have attracted the fiercest rival partisans in antidepressant research. "Dopaminergic" (and opioid) agents, by contrast, are suspect. They are politically incorrect since they are potentially "abusable". Moreover it can be argued that the research and development of safe and sustainable Ecstasy-like empathogens and sociabilisers is at least as morally urgent as the license of safe and sustainable euphoriants. At any rate, enhanced mesolimbic dopamine release, exclusively or otherwise, enriches the intensity of experience; increases pleasure and libido, and potentially boosts cognitive performance. Even better, whereas some dopaminergics are potentially toxic, some dopamine-enhancing agents may have neuroprotective properties as well.

So what are the other contemporary options for chemical life-enhancement?

Out of all the many possibilities they list after that I would say that chewing coca leaves continually would be the most fun (sounds good to me, though not really an mdma like enhancement to your psyche) or using one of the various longer term acting phenethylamines like venlafaxine. And it also notes that possibly duloxetine/milnacipran (which works in a similar way) may be just as effective but with less side effects, and have possible advantages in relieving physical pain symptoms as well as mental health symptoms. It says though that its hard to tell if its really as good as the companies producing it say it is until the patent runs out and impartial tests are able to be done on it, saying: "Duloxetine itself will probably prove a blockbuster product. It will most likely be marketed for everything from stress urinary incontinence, social phobia and generalised anxiety disorder, diabetic peripheral neuropathic pain and possibly irritable bowel syndrome. But alas it takes time to separate genuine therapeutic advance from drug company hype, typically not until the patents expire."


So it says about the phenethylamine venlafaxine:

Venlafaxine (Effexor) is a phenethylamine. Thus it's a benign if distant chemical cousin of MDMA. Its manufacturers launched it as "Prozac with a punch". In February 2008, the FDA licensed its extended-release active metabolite desvenlafaxine as the antidepressant Pristiq after Weyth's venlafaxine patent expired. Venlafaxine inhibits the neuronal reuptake of serotonin, noradrenaline and dopamine in descending order of potency. If dopaminergically augmented, it offers another opening for creative psychopharmacology. Such augmentation-therapy remains (almost) clinically unexplored. Taken on its own at low dosage, venlafaxine acts primarily as a serotonin re-uptake inhibitor. At the high-level dosages most suitable for melancholic and hypersomnic temperaments, its noradrenergic (and weakly dopaminergic) action becomes more pronounced. Venlafaxine lacks anticholinergic activity; but some users are troubled by its antihistamine side-effects. Like the SSRIs, it is sometimes useful for a broad spectrum of disorders beyond clinical depression.

It also mentions the benefits gamma-hydroxybutyrate (GHB) can have on feelings of emotional warmth, enhancing emotional openness and the desire to socialse, and notes that its a very safe and non toxic substance in normal doses (when not mixed with other substances). Also says about GHB: " Most remarkably, the moderate user may awake refreshed after a deep restful sleep: GHB appears temporarily to inhibit dopamine-release while increasing storage, leading to the brightened mood and sharpened mental focus of a subsequent "dopamine-rebound". GHB acts both as a disinhibitor and an aphrodisiac. Intensity of orgasm is heightened. Hence GHB is potentially useful in relieving the psychopathologies of prudery and sexual repression. Unfortunately, its therapeutic value has been eclipsed by its demonisation in the mass-media. [....] Yet GHB evokes - at best - only a faint, fleeting parody of the life-long chemical nirvana on offer to our transhuman successors."

Anyone got the scoop on the similarity of the effects of the phenethylamine venlafaxine (or the similar working duloxetine or milnacipran) to the effects of mdma on a long term basis? Cant seem to find much literature on any of them. At least I'm in the correct chemical class now

Synesthesiac added 75 Minutes and 30 Seconds later...

Actually looks like theres plenty of info, I must have spelt it wrong when I searched for it.

I'll have a sift through it tomorrow. Doesn't look like its any wonder drug though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effexor_xr
Does Venlafaxine stimulate the Sociabilising effects of MDMA?
Erowid experience reports for venlafaxine; http://www.erowid.org/experiences/su...lafaxine.shtml

[Synesthesiac]

Originally Posted by Panthers007

Keep studying - you're getting closer. But the medical science of these things require a great deal more knowledge of neuro-chemistry and physiology to unravel.

Closer to what?

U know something I dont?

[Synesthesiac]

It does have a wiki, just under a different name than survector, its called amineptine; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amineptine

Seems it was so effective at treating people, and had so little side effects compared to conventional mood enhancing drugs, the FDA banned it. Typical.

http://www.amineptine.com/

".....Amineptine (Survector) is a clean-ish, (relatively) selective dopamine reuptake blocker. Higher doses promote dopamine release too. Amineptine is pro-sexual and liable occasionally to cause spontaneous orgasms. It is a mild but pleasant psychostimulant and a fast-acting mood-brightener.

Amineptine has a small but non-negligible abuse-potential. Its enjoyable but short-lived psychostimulant effect should be distinguished in clinical practice from its sustained antidepressant action. Arguably all too many contemporary "antidepressants" lack abuse-potential not through superior design or clinical efficacy, but because they aren't any good.[.....]

Amineptine isn't marketed or licensed in Britain and America. In Europe, too, the medication has been driven onto the pharmaceutical grey market. This is because FDA pressure led to the withdrawal of amineptine's EC product-license early in 1999, causing substantial problems for patients and physicians alike. In early 2005, Servier ceased production of amineptine in Brazil. It is still available in some Uruguayan pharmacies or as a research chemical, but the world-wide famine persists.

It also has a chemical cousin called Tianeptine; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianeptine This however does the exact opposite of mdma in regards to serotonin, its a serotonic enhancer. Which makes the low serotonin = depression high serotonin = happiness hypothesis used for most SSRI's look a bit unfounded. Possibly for the effects of mdma too. I think you can buy this one online. But I have to say that amineptine looks the more promising. Probably gonna be a bitch to find in ther UK though.

[Sloop]

Swim was treated with Survector/Amineptine for severe ADHD for several years when working in Brazil last decade and swim can attest he had little need to take dexamphetamine (his usual med in that period). and unlike the dex he slept better than ever, enjoyed a better appetite and most importantly being at that stage 34 years old and single in Brazil,
Survector was a gift from the divine (unlike dexamphetamine which is cruel in that it doesnt help swims erection though it drives his desire up).

You can still get it from survectorsource (re biopsychiatry site) in swims experience (swim has found this source to be reliable) but swim doesnt live in the UK and its expensive,

it is a great pity it was withdrawn, being safer than just about every drug in the category, I can just imagine those FDA hypocrits voting and lobbying hard to ban it, particularly after hearing it can increase orgasm frequency and intensity, though they searched hard to find anything wrong with it but eventually said it was liable to abuse. My god, I can still get dopamine drugs like ritalin dexamphetamine and d-methamphetamine though. FDA says they are okay.
Sorry, we all know money comes before human health and happiness

Survector had the potential to put a big dent in the sales of a lot of drugs for depression, sexual issues and ADHD as well.

When they banned it I bet you those FDA boys that lobbied against it where racing to their office to put massive orders for themselves on the final survector stocks!
not for the market but for themselves and their wives and girlfriends!

[Synesthesiac]

Originally Posted by betsym

Survector, available from limited sources, and it's cousin Stablon, are two antidepressants which may give more of a feeling that swiy is looking for. They don't cause drowsiness or decrease libido but, in fact , do the opposite. Survector works on the dopamine and Stablon works on the serotonin. Taken together they work really well for combating depression and giving a good over-all feeling.Swim has tried them and wants to keep taking them. Survector works similarly to the drug Dostinex, which is now said to affect a heart valve and so is not recommended ,but Survector appears safe and is sometimes used for male impotence or sexual dysfunction in either sex.

Thats very interesting, thanx for pointing this one out

Survector looks quite promising, although there seems to be so little info about it online, it doesn't even have a wiki. http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Sur...L_enGB290GB290

Do you have any experience with it? (personally or otherwise), and are there any major side effects/negatives associated with its use?