Dose - What is the Dosage of Bicarb produced NaGHB

[lucboy]

Hi,
First sorry for my bad english...

SWIM made NaGhb using the recipe on Erowid : Preparation of Sodium GHB using Sodium Bicarbonate (Baking Soda, NaHCO3)
SWIM think it suceeded, he obtained solid NaGHB but he have some questions :

- is the dosage of NaGhb similar to pure Ghb or a higher dosage can be used ?
- do the recipe with Sodium hydroxide (NaOH) produces better GHB ?

Thanks for your response
LucBoy

[lucboy]

Nobody to help me ?

[MrG]

The dosage should be the same although the reaction is a lot less efficient with the bicarb route.

[PsiCubes]

The dosage should be the same as Mr.G stated.

SWIM succesfully made some NaGHB with Baking Soda and confirms the taste and effects are just te same. Just depends on the concentration when diluted with water.

Although it is harder to get it right. The gbl <-> Baking soda ratio isn't always correct. SWIM's first try had unreacted baking soda left, 2nd try unreacted gbl, but last time everything went perfect. Using a bit more then usual converted baking soda (sodium carbonate) and kept adding small portions of gbl till ph hits 7. SWIM's GHB is the best he's come across. Thick, colorless, odourless and very salty taste, with high concentration. 5-6ml will knock SWIM down if no stimulants are used with it.

SWIM also prefers the baking soda method becuz SWIM doesn't want any unreacted NOAH in his body which he thinks is worse than unreacted sodium carbonate.

[Jozef]

Originally Posted by PsiCubes

SWIM also prefers the baking soda method becuz SWIM doesn't want any unreacted NOAH in his body which he thinks is worse than unreacted sodium carbonate.

If the ph is 7 then you can be fairly certain that there isn't any unreacted base left.

[Quantum Dude]

Originally Posted by PsiCubes

SWIM also prefers the baking soda method becuz SWIM doesn't want any unreacted NOAH in his body which he thinks is worse than unreacted sodium carbonate.

This is irrelevant if the pH of the final mixture is measured and the proper value is obtained.

Besides, the sodium carbonate route involves sodium hydroxide too, its just made in situ from the reaction of the carbonate ion and water.

[gmeziscool2354]

sodium bicarbonate is classified as a weak base, where as sodium hydroxide is a strong base. The difference between the two is that NaOH dissociates fully into sollution, and NaHCO3 exists in equilibrium between Na+ HCO3-, H+ CO3 2- and NaHCO3 (no dissociation). In the case of a weak base some reactant will go back to starting material, so one can never have a full yield. Also, with sodium bicarbonate, the H+ acts as an acid (Duh) and reacts as such, so it lowers the alkalinity of the solution

Somebody would recommends using Sodium carbonate (Na2CO3) sodium hydroxide is unavailable but forgets what its trade name is.

[Quantum Dude]

Originally Posted by gmeziscool2354

sodium bicarbonate is classified as a weak base, where as sodium hydroxide is a strong base. The difference between the two is that NaOH dissociates fully into sollution, and NaHCO3 exists in equilibrium between Na+ HCO3-, H+ CO3 2- and NaHCO3 (no dissociation). In the case of a weak base some reactant will go back to starting material, so one can never have a full yield. Also, with sodium bicarbonate, the H+ acts as an acid (Duh) and reacts as such, so it lowers the alkalinity of the solution

Somebody would recommends using Sodium carbonate (Na2CO3) sodium hydroxide is unavailable but forgets what its trade name is.

Actually your interpretation of the incomplete yield is wrong:

The procedure involves first the thermal decomposition of NaHCO3 into Na2CO3 according to:


2 NaHCO3 ========>> Na2CO3 + H2O + CO2

This is the reason sodium bicarbonate is used, to convert it to sodium carbonate in situ. Now since sodium carbonate is in solution, one should expect:

Na2CO3 + H2O << ========>> 2 NaOH + H2O + CO2

Now theoretically this is true, but Na2CO3 is a weaker base than NaOH and it is wrong (even in boiling water) to assume full conversion of 1 mole of sodium carbonate into 2 moles of sodium hydroxide. The pKb's of carbonate (CO3 2-) and hydrocarbonate (HCO3 -) are respectively 3.67 and 7.65. An equilibrium will be reached at some point and not all the carbonate will react with water to yield the necessary hydroxide ion (OH-) for the following reaction with GBL. It is safe to assume that 1 mole of carbonate will generate 1 mole of hydroxide (maybe a little more) but at the end, swiy will end up with unreacted GBL.
__________________

Reputation Comments on this post:

good, post, blew mine out of the water as far as clairity was concerned

[gmeziscool2354]

i think you misunderstood. Incomplete yeild was the wrong phrase. what was inteneded was with a designated 'weak' base the reaction does not go to completetion, it stays in an equilibrium state.

but everyone is going to ignore this casue SWIY said it about 10 times better

Reputation Comments on this post:

Yours was informative (and accurate) too. Good to have some chemistry litterate people on board.