Other - swimm worried about friend showing signs of skitsophrenia

[Mega maniac]

hey to you all, swimm has a friend who over the summer break from uni has been taking dmt, he is also a heavy weed smoker. since his return to uni he has been a totally different person, he is worryingly showing signs of early skitsophrenia. he doesnt get involved in conversation, goes for short walks by himself, makes quick changes in decisions (eg joining us in a room but quickly leaving again) is very solitary in all his actions and is generally very distant. swimm is worried for his friends well being and both swimm and other people swimm know have askedhim to see smone about it but he doesnt think he needs to. i know there are alot of knowledgable people on this forum and i would be most grateful for any help or advice you could offer swimm, thanks.

[69Ron]

SWIM had this reaction directly (for a few hours only) and knows others who have had this reaction (long term) solely from long term MARIJUANA use. So don't be too quick to think it is DMT related. Some studies show long term marijuana users show a higher likelihood of developing schizophrenia than non smokers. The effects of marijana, including the after effects, are long lasting, we’re talking many weeks. The effects, including after effects, of DMT are only up to about 1 day maximum. The main effects only lasts about 30 minutes. It seems relatively harmless. I’ve never heard of DMT causing schizophrenia or being linked to it in any way, but its possible.

SWIM quit smoking marijuana after seeing a few other long term heavy marijuana users develop schizophrenia.

[Shampoo]

Originally Posted by 69Ron

The effects of marijana, including the after effects, are long lasting, we’re talking many weeks. The effects, including after effects, of DMT are only up to about 1 day maximum.

Can you please support these claims with evidence?

Are you talking about actual levels of THC activating CB receptors at 2 weeks+ post ingestion? or are you saying that the g-protein cascade resulting from their (CB receptor) activation has downstream effects that last for weeks?

I would also like to see evidence that, following the same standards of activity that qualifies as "after effects" in your opinion, DMT lasts much less than 10% the time of THC.

Originally Posted by Synesthesiac

Its probably a good idea to tell a fib and say its having bad effects on you and thats why your quitting, he might relate to that and be more up for it.

Its never a "good idea" to lie. As my father used to tell me, honesty is the best policy.

In my opinion, if your friend seriously needs help, he will ask for it in one way or another, either directly or through metaphorical "cries for help". Perhaps he was truly changed by either his experiences with DMT or with himself over the summer, after all, college (uni) is a time for growth, change, maturity, and accepting certain truths about life. Perhaps your friend had a revelatory experience and has rearranged his priorities as a result. Having had friends go through these experiences, I suggest you allow him the space he desires. Dont force your way into his life, but try to keep a finger on his pulse, if nothing else than for your own peace of mind. This doesnt mean offering him psychiatry or pills, but rather simply being his friend, and as such, being "on call" if he does decide he needs help.

Please let us know how the situation unravels if it remains an issue.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Nice points

[Synesthesiac]

Originally Posted by Shampoo

Its never a "good idea" to lie. As my father used to tell me, honesty is the best policy.

Its not a lie, its a fib. Theres a difference.

Sometimes you have to, but its only ever necissary when its more beneficial to someone when compared to the negative effect of the fib itself.

[jaffacake]

There's no evidence that smoking marijuana causes schizophrenia. If your friend is in his late teens/early twenties then he's at the age when schizophrenia usually develops so if he's worried he needs to go and see a doctor.

[salviablue]

Originally Posted by jaffacake

There's no evidence that smoking marijuana causes schizophrenia. If your friend is in his late teens/early twenties then he's at the age when schizophrenia usually develops so if he's worried he needs to go and see a doctor.

Chronic weed usage definately triggers schizophrenic tendencies in those even slightly predisposed to mental disorders. Its just a matter of time unless there are breaks in usage. Unfortunately, usually, the worse the mental disturbance and the longer the chronic usage, the more weed will be likely to adversely effect one in the future.

There is actually lots of "evidence" that chronic weed usage leads to mental disorders of all kinds, esp. that has come to light recently (not just gov sponsored propaganda). The key with weed for most people is control and moderation. Get these sussed to your own perculiarities and your swimming!

Unfortunately I dont have enough experience to give valuable advice concerning mega maniacs SWIY friend other than problems are very likely due to chronic weed use. Although what Shampoo said

"Perhaps he was truly changed by either his experiences with DMT or with himself over the summer, after all, college (uni) is a time for growth, change, maturity, and accepting certain truths about life. Perhaps your friend had a revelatory experience and has rearranged his priorities as a result"

or the weed could have just made an underlying problem more easily visible at a time of age related unveiling, a la what jaffacake said,

"If your friend is in his late teens/early twenties then he's at the age when schizophrenia usually develops so if he's worried he needs to go and see a doctor. "

[69Ron]

Originally Posted by Shampoo

Can you please support these claims with evidence?

Are you talking about actual levels of THC activating CB receptors at 2 weeks+ post ingestion? or are you saying that the g-protein cascade resulting from their (CB receptor) activation has downstream effects that last for weeks?

I would also like to see evidence that, following the same standards of activity that qualifies as "after effects" in your opinion, DMT lasts much less than 10% the time of THC.


Its never a "good idea" to lie. As my father used to tell me, honesty is the best policy.

That is all based on SWIM’s personal experience with both substances.

With DMT, SWIM can detect a melatonin like aftereffect the day following it's use.

With marijuana SWIM can detect a slightly drugged effect on his ability to concentrate for several weeks after its use. When he finally quit smoking it, it took him a total of three months to recover.

Other people have reported similar after effects for both substances. I don’t know the chemical process involved, but they both definitely have aftereffects. SWIM is very sensitive to aftereffects. With LSD he can detect slight aftereffects for about 4 days. This is despite the fact that the LSD is no longer in the system at that time. Aftereffects are mostly caused by the body getting back to baseline after a drug has been used, and in many cases the aftereffects linger after the dug can no longer be detected in the body. Aftereffects can vary according to individual metabolism.

Anyway the evidence exists that proves what I said above. I’m NOT bullshitting you.

Look here:

Just as in Males, marijuana effects the female in the part of the brain that controls the hormones, which determines the sequence in the menstrual cycle. Its been said that females who smoked or used marijuana on a regular basis had irregular menstrual cycles, the female hormones were depressed, and the testosterone level was raised. Even though this effect may be reversible, it may take several months of no marijuana use before the menstrual cycles become normal again.

That quote is from here: http://www.marijuanaaddiction.info/effects-of-marijuana.htm

Another one from Erowid about marijuana aftereffects which they call “withdrawal symptoms” :

mild to moderate, non life-threatening withdrawal symptoms occur after daily use in some users. These may last for 1-6 weeks after cessation of use and can include anxiety, anhedonia (reduced experience of pleasure), headaches, general unease/discomfort, difficulty sleeping, and a desire to smoke pot. Severity of symptoms is related to frequency of use and individual sensitivity.

That is from: http://www.erowid.org/plants/cannabis/cannabis_effects.shtml

Erowid is stating 1-6 weeks, the other site is stating several months. SWIM has read 3 months is the maximum for aftereffects of marijuana. It's many many times more disrupting to the body than DMT or even LSD.

You need more proof?



Aside from the evidence, SWIM believes marijuana can directly cause schizophrenia and that it isn’t merely triggering it in people who are already predisposed to it. He’s seen it happen to too many friends that were hardcore smokers. He’s also seen speed do this to people. He’s known people who’ve use LSD for over 10 years on a regular basis and they look just fine. Same with DMT.

If DMT could trigger psychosis, wouldn’t ayahuasca users be suffering from schizophrenia more than non users? The evidence I’ve seen from users shows the opposite, but I haven’t seen studies on ayahuasca as it might relate to schizophrenia. Ayahuasca is often given to schizophrenics to help heal them. I’ve heard many claims that is it very effective at treating depression and mild schizophrenia. Again, no real studies on this. They may exist, and I’ve just not found them.

[dwhitty76]

swim was misdiagnosed as schizophrenic/paranoid about 15 yrs ago.That particular situation was due to heavy drug use.He basically locked himself in a room for a month and did not want to engage in any social activity and was overly suspiscious of everyone in his life.
I'm no doctor and swim is not a chronic dmt smoker (multiple times a week or every day) but when he feels the time is right.THC tends to make him paranoid at times
After swim was misdiagnosed he basically took a 2 month sabatical from ALL drugs and let him find his baseline.
It would seem that if this individual recognizes he/she is having an issue with his/hers mental health and wants to do something about it instead of continuing a spiral downwards than it might make sense to take a break from everything fo a little while.
It doesnt matter whether its the THC or DMT,more impotant is the persons willingness to do something about it and excessive use of any substance will alter anyones brain chemistry and it will effect some people differently than others.
From swims own experience i would say it probably has more to do with the thc but to take a break fom everything and find his/her baseline is probably the best solution. Good luck

[69Ron]

Originally Posted by dwhitty76

swim was misdiagnosed as schizophrenic/paranoid about 15 yrs ago.That particular situation was due to heavy drug use.He basically locked himself in a room for a month and did not want to engage in any social activity and was overly suspiscious of everyone in his life.
I'm no doctor and swim is not a chronic dmt smoker (multiple times a week or every day) but when he feels the time is right.THC tends to make him paranoid at times
After swim was misdiagnosed he basically took a 2 month sabatical from ALL drugs and let him find his baseline.
It would seem that if this individual recognizes he/she is having an issue with his/hers mental health and wants to do something about it instead of continuing a spiral downwards than it might make sense to take a break from everything fo a little while.
It doesnt matter whether its the THC or DMT,more impotant is the persons willingness to do something about it and excessive use of any substance will alter anyones brain chemistry and it will effect some people differently than others.
From swims own experience i would say it probably has more to do with the thc but to take a break fom everything and find his/her baseline is probably the best solution. Good luck

I'd have to agree with that. It doesn't matter what drug is being used. If he's acting unusual, he should stop using all drugs for a while.

69Ron added 25 Minutes and 7 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by Shampoo

Ok, if you believe marijuana directly causes schizophrenia you can either defend that position here (as it is applicable to the situation) or in one of the many threads regarding the relationship between cannabis and schizophrenia, but either way you must provide evidence.

Despite the evidence, I don't think marijuana is good for people to smoke heavily on a daily basis.

Like I said I BELIEVE that marijuana can directly cause schizophrenia in people based on seeing several heavy marijuana users develop schizophrenia.

The key word there is BELEIVE. I didn't say I had proof. I can I believe something is the case without providing proof. Just like I believe God exists based on presonal experience without providing you with proof.

Ok, because you're not taking my own person experience seriously, here you go, another quote from others backing up my own personal experience:

Use of street drugs (including LSD,methamphetamine,marijuana/hash/cannabis) and alcohol have been linked with significantly increased probability of developing psychosis and schizophrenia. This link has been documented in over 30 different scientific studies (studies done mostly in the UK, Australia and Sweden) over the past 20 years. In one example, a study interviewed 50,000 members of the Swedish Army about their drug consumption and followed up with them later in life. Those who were heavy consumers of cannabis at age 18 were over 600% more likely to be diagnosed with schizophrenia over the next 15 years than those did not take it. (see diagram below). Experts estimate that between 8% and 13% of all schizophrenia cases are linked to marijuna / cannabis use during teen years. It is also notable that some research suggests that alcohol abuse is a stronger predictor of psychotic symptoms than regular cannabis use (by a factor of four)

....

Other research has backed this up, showing that cannabis use increases the risk of psychosis by up to 700% for heavy users

That quote is from this page: http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevention/streetdrugs.html

Care to address that quote? They are saying that heavy pot users are up to 700% more likely to develop psychosis. Based on what I saw happen to friends I know, I believe that is completely accurate. I've never seen anyone develop psychosis from LSD or DMT, EVER. I've seen it from pot use and speed use, and alcohol use. What I've seen with my own two eyes is more believable than any study out there saying otherwise.

And if you want to argue, there are literally hundreds of other quotes out there to back up my view point. I can go on and on and on. I’m sure every study I post you’re going to say, “that’s biased”, or “that’s an out of date study”, or “that’s been disproved”, or some other nonsense to back up your point of view. The fact that I know people who now have schizophrenia because of smoking pot makes me REALLY PISSED OFF.

There’s enough evidence to show that this is the case. I wish I could go back in time and stop those dear friends from smoking pot. They are now unrecoverable schizophrenics and quite scary to be around. It is very sad to see that happen when it could have so easily been avoided.

As to the original poster, please get that guy to stop using drugs. The last thing you want it is have a good friend develop permanent schizophrenia or some other mental problem.

Pot HAS been linked to schizophrenia in many studies I’ve seen and I’ve seen it happen to people I know. Get him to stop. Whatever it takes. Don’t listing to these other people telling you pot is fine, smoke it all fucking day long, year after year, and you’ll be fine. Yeah right. Tell that to my two buddies with marijuana induced schizophrenia!

Get him to STOP USING ALL DRUGS. ASAP!

[Shampoo]

Originally Posted by 69Ron

With DMT, SWIM can detect a melatonin like aftereffect the day following it's use.

a "melatonin like aftereffect?" It has been suggested that certain 5-HT agonists increase melatonin synthesis, but Im not sure what psychoactive effects this would have outside of circadian rhythm control and perhaps some effects on lucidity.

With marijuana SWIM can detect a slightly drugged effect on his ability to concentrate for several weeks after its use. When he finally quit smoking it, it took him a total of three months to recover.

Is this after a single use, or after daily use?

ust as in Males, marijuana effects the female in the part of the brain that controls the hormones, which determines the sequence in the menstrual cycle. Its been said that females who smoked or used marijuana on a regular basis had irregular menstrual cycles, the female hormones were depressed, and the testosterone level was raised. Even though this effect may be reversible, it may take several months of no marijuana use before the menstrual cycles become normal again.

First of all, this quote is from "marijuanaaddiction.info". An unbiased, reliable source? Yeah, one who includes the following in their modest list of marijuana harms:

• Clogged synapses, brain damage and addiction

• Marijuana accumulates in the microscopic spaces between nerve cells in the brain called "synapses." This clogging interferes by slowing and impairing transfer critical information.
• Long term use causes the brain to stop production of brain chemicals necessary to "feel good" - a negative feedback condition. And, the user becomes chemically addicted to marijuana.

That is utter nonsense. That site is full of it. Pseudoscience. If you dont believe me, Id be happy to explain why marijuana accumulating in synaptic clefts (not synapses, that is a broader term describing the post and presynaptic densities) and "clogging" transmission is a ridiculous misrepresentation of a much more complicated process than they care to investigate.

Note the bold area in which even they are even reluctant to call that debunked hormone study a fact. Tests regarding the effects of cannabinoids on hormones, especially those regulating sexuality and fertility, have long been known to show that cannabis has no notable effects on the hormonal systems of men or women. Early tests that were done about 35 years ago claimed certain effects on testosterone levels and menstrual cycles, but were refuted some 20 years later by several studies from numerous sources.

and as for your quote from erowid, they are refering to the withdrawal symptoms of long-term chronic daily use, not simply the "aftereffects" of cannabis. While some of these factors may be a potential explanation for the OPs friend, it sounds like he is actually still smoking, so they are not applicable, and certainly not normal aftereffects of casual cannabis use.

Aside from the evidence, SWIM believes marijuana can directly cause schizophrenia and that it isn’t merely triggering it in people who are already predisposed to it. He’s seen it happen to too many friends that were hardcore smokers. He’s also seen speed do this to people. He’s known people who’ve use LSD for over 10 years on a regular basis and they look just fine. Same with DMT.

Ok, if you believe marijuana directly causes schizophrenia you can either defend that position here (as it is applicable to the situation) or in one of the many threads regarding the relationship between cannabis and schizophrenia, but either way you must provide evidence.

There is a big difference between the cognitive effects of cannabis and amphetamines, both of which you use as examples of shizophrenia-inducing substances. Amphetamines have a severe neurotoxic impact that can lead to psychosis and the literal bursting of synaptic bulbs. This does not happen with cannabis and the activation of CB receptors.

Also, for every psychonaut swim has seen sail through the cosmic headspace frequently for years and come out unscathed, there is another that has fallen. If you or your friend knows many people who have used LSD for over 10 years regularly with no ill effects, than they either have a tendency to selectively sample, or friends with very resilient minds.


Mega Maniac, any updates on the situation? How has your friend's condition progressed? and have your friends/housemates ceased their cannabis habits in support of their friend?

Reputation Comments on this post:

Thanks for sticking up for the truth and adding real information.

[Synesthesiac]

Originally Posted by Mega maniac

hey to you all, swimm has a friend who over the summer break from uni has been taking dmt, he is also a heavy weed smoker.

I can honestly say that I think is far more likely the weed than the DMT. swim have a friend who smoked it heavily for three years, and by the end of it he had to go to hospital due to psychosis/schizophrenia symptoms, took him a month or two to sort his head out. It happened quite suddenly, he was fine for about two years and 8 months or so, but over the period of four months the amount of dope he was smoking by himself was beggining to get to him. And he was acting exactly like you describe, he used to come out and stay round swims house for days, but he would only come round to pick up gear, and rarely stay more than twenty minutes, converstaions with him seemed detatched and he would always make excuses when asked to come out.

All it took was a month off the weed, support from mates, and he returned pretty much to normal. And also after he had been off it for a week and was showing signs of improving, swim gave him some MDMA for theraputic reasons, which really helped him analyse and change his life by looking at it from a more truthful perspective, and worked wonders in getting him to reconnect with his friends.

DMT, though very unlikely to be the cause of this in my opinion, could be a contributing factor. Read this recently on erowid: The Psychedelic Model of Schizophrenia: The Case of N,N-Dimethyltryptamine. It really didn't convince me though. Its more just one scientists theory than an established fact. The only case he makes for it is "Boszormenyi and Szara (38) reported that schizophrenics do show diminished responsiveness to DMT, this may result from increased metabolism or variable tolerance resulting from long-term endogenous synthesis of DMT.". Which again is all in the area of speculation, no tests or any sort of verification of this hypothesis have been made. Weed and schizophrenia on the other hand, theres a lot of evidence that it can make people already predisposed to mentall illness develop schizophrenia. But its usually treatable nowadays, so many good therapies about. And DMT is out of your system sooo quickly I find it even more unlikely to be this, other people on this forum have said they know people that have used it multiple times every day for a year or so, and showed so sign of change.

My advise is just to get him off the weed as soon as you can. Say you and all your mates are quitting it so he should too or something. Its probably a good idea to tell a fib and say its having bad effects on you and thats why your quitting, he might relate to that and be more up for it.

[Mega maniac]

SWIMM's first reaction was that it must be the weed that had triggered this mental change in SWIMM's friend, but he has been smoking it heavily for a good 2-3 years previously and had never had any of the paranoid or negative associations with weed. Due to the extreme psycoactive effects of DMT SWIMM assumed that this must have been the trigger for this change in SWIMM's friends personality. Perhaps a combination of the trip('s) he had had and the weed smoked. Either way from what you are all saying it seems perhaps SWIMM and SWIMM's friends need to stand by SWIMM's friend and all offer to quit with him, it would be impossible just to "say" we were going to quit as we all live with him. It would honestly be a good idea anyway as we are all entering our third years at uni.

Thankyou for your advice so far and SWIMM will pass this along to his friends very soon.

[salviablue]

Originally Posted by Mega maniac

SWIMM's first reaction was that it must be the weed that had triggered this mental change in SWIMM's friend, but he has been smoking it heavily for a good 2-3 years previously and had never had any of the paranoid or negative associations with weed.

so had SWIM before things started getting the better. Meds were started and only after an extreme drought did SWIM realise weed was strongly not helping. People kept telling swim about behaviours and chronic weed usage but swim thought all was under control and probs were due to something else, besides swim knew people that smoked more and they seemed alright, right?


Bottom line is, everyones different, reacts differently (with in a certain degree ofcourse!) and that a lot of people seem to forget that weed is an extremely potent psychedelic. Although someone may be fine after years of chronic use, something in ones life may trigger a mental disturbance were the state achieved from chronic weed use was the catalyst.
Although almost anything can be argued with stats and experiments can only be as useful as thier design and execution and interpretation. I dont think anyone can honestly argue against the continual saturation of the mind and body with a strong psychedelic substance will more than likely lead to mental instability.

SWIY`s friend certainly needs friends. Someone SWIM knew was in a similar boat, they said constant weed smoking over 1 1/2 - 2 yrs "revealed to them" a mental problem that was in need of immediate attention. They sectioned themself and "got better" 6 mnt later. About 3 years after that episode, this person started developing out of character characteristics (like mumbling to self, being totally unable to follow on the bass a well known line in practice, strange conversations, telling of strange interactions with friends that never happened etc.) incidentely when s/he started smoking weed again. SWIM was giving person weed because at that point didnt know what person said triggered the probs in the first place. Actually during a smoke said person commented to swim that if s/he keeps this up, s/he will end up inside again! at which point swim stopped supplying, said person stopped using but the `damage` was done and a few weeks later the strangeness got really noticable. Fortunately said person realised the symptoms and sectioned ones self again.
SWIM actually saw said person a few years back and s/he seemd to be fine again and enjoying life (just not weed).

It is not really known whether weed really did effect this individual thusly but s/he thought so, and the `evidence` seems to agree. SWIM understands though that it is unknown whether there were any other influencing factors, so any assumptions are incomplete.

[Desertfox]

Does your friend have a history of schizophrenia in the family because of all the literature SWIM has read on the subject says that marijuana has the possibility of uncovering latent mental disorders. so of all the contributing factors of your friends age being the time in one's life where symptoms start appearing, and his drug use, also possibly his personal life or issues, they are all mixing together to make an unstable state.

[Mega maniac]

As far as SWIMM is aware no-one in his family has had mental problems before, but SWIMM doesnt know his family that well, and doesnt really want to start quizzing him about it. SWIMM and the rest of the house have all agreed today that they will stop smoking weed alltogether in the house so it is not around SWIMM's friend all the time. Hopefully this will help out SWIMM's friend.

[=SKA=]

Originally Posted by Mega maniac

hey to you all, swimm has a friend who over the summer break from uni has been taking dmt, he is also a heavy weed smoker. since his return to uni he has been a totally different person, he is worryingly showing signs of early skitsophrenia. he doesnt get involved in conversation, goes for short walks by himself, makes quick changes in decisions (eg joining us in a room but quickly leaving again) is very solitary in all his actions and is generally very distant. swimm is worried for his friends well being and both swimm and other people swimm know have askedhim to see smone about it but he doesnt think he needs to. i know there are alot of knowledgable people on this forum and i would be most grateful for any help or advice you could offer swimm, thanks.

You know what? That doesn't at all appear to me as signs of Schizophrenia. It sounds rather familiar to me as I have been in such states every now and then in my Life.

It sounds more like a general Psychological distress born from an emotionally (course of) traumatic event(s). Being socially withdrawn, needing time by yourself (walks), being indecisive and being distantv sound exactly like the things I do when I'm emotionally so hurt/down that I get into this state of confusion and feel kind of dumbstruck with confusion. I have had this many times after emotionally distressing events and they are the things I do to "get back center".

I sometimes need some isolation from social events, need alot of time to spend just by myself, have a hard time deciding what to do with my time...etc By withdrawing socially and spending more time alone I reduce the amount of external stimuli and so I create for myself a more ideal, calm situation to get back to a Psychologically peacefull and clear state of Mind. Very recognisable to me and I've allways pulled through emotionally/psychologically VERY hard times that way.

Schizophrenia is indicated when a person is slowly being immersed into a fantasy kind of world, visual hallucinations, voices..etc that become so realistic and immersive that the person suffering from this condition can soon no longer make a difference between the "2 realities". I've been around a VERY severely schizophrenic guy and noticed how he lived in 2 worlds at the same time, much more in this imaginative dreamworld than this physical mainstream Reality we all live in dayly.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	excellent points!
	Thanks for adding clarification. Mental disorders are widely misunderstood.

[Micklemouse]

Jaffacake, please provide figures & references to back up your claim that incidence of schizophrenia has remained constant for the last 100 years.

[Burnt]

Alright listen biologically speaking there is very little evidence that cannabis causes schizophrenia. It has been linked with mental illness in numerous social science population studies but this is either a result of predisposition or just the fact that people who are mentally ill often self medicate.

Now people do act weird and get paranoid from smoking too much weed and there may be some biological reason for this however the neurochemical details are not yet known. Stopping using seems to reverse most negative effects of Cannabis. There is very weak biological evidence that cannabis CAUSES schizophrenia.

Also the definition of schizophrenia makes it even more difficult to evaluate these population studies.

DMT the story is the same. DMT will not make you insane but if can make an insane person worse. SWIM had a friend who went schizophrenic and used weed and psychedelics but the worst drug for him was alcohol. He acted like a total antisocial madman whenever he drank. When he tripped he actually seemed normal.

[jaffacake]

Originally Posted by Micklemouse

Jaffacake, please provide figures & references to back up your claim that incidence of schizophrenia has remained constant for the last 100 years.

Perhaps the strongest piece of evidence to cast doubt on a causal connection between marijuana and schizophrenia is a long flat-line trend in the disease. While marijuana use rose from virtually nil in the 1940s and '50s to a peak period of use in 1979 -- when some 60 percent of high school seniors had tried it -- schizophrenia rates remained virtually constant over those decades. The same remains true today: One percent or fewer people have schizophrenia, a rate consistent among populations around the world. This is in stark contrast to studies linking tobacco smoking with lung cancer, where rises in tobacco use were accompanied by rising rates of lung cancer.

"If anything, the studies seem to show a possible decline in schizophrenia from the '40s and the '50s," says Dr. Alan Brown, a professor of psychiatry and epidemiology at Columbia University. "If marijuana does have a causal role in schizophrenia, and that's still questionable, it may only play a role in a small percent of cases."

http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feat...ss/index1.html

But the report pays no attention to the arguments and evidence concerning trends in levels of cannabis use and psychosis. That is, if cannabis use causes psychotic disorders like schizophrenia, then there should be a significant correlation between trends across time in the two variables. Yet studies in both Australia (Hall) and the UK (me) have reported that there is no such relationship. Similarly, recent research has also found anti-psychotic effect for CBD, a cannabinoid found mainly in resin rather than skunk, though this is also left unmentioned by the report.

http://www.lifeline.org.uk/feature.php?IDnum=25

Reputation Comments on this post:

Well defended.

[=SKA=]

Hey people, You're all tripping monkeyballs!!! Look at the first post in which this friend's "Symptoms" are discribed. Now check out the Symptoms of Schoizophrenia and realise that this Friend's Symptoms are not anywhere NEAR those of Schizophrenia. I think your friend is just rather psychologically distressed and you're all overreacting and suggesting schizophrenia.

Damnit go fucking inform yourselves on the Symptoms of Schizophrenia and what it actually is. You'll see that the symptoms described are NOTHING AT ALL like those of Schizophrenia.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Unnecessarily aggressive post, especially when some of the symptoms described are actually classed as negative symptoms ...
	Flaming. Why are you so angry? Look a few posts back and note that at least one user has already made this point and I b...

[Synesthesiac]

Your right, I dont think he's got schizophrenia. Didn't really think, just read the title and presumed we were dealing with schizophrenia. Seems like just social anxiety disorder, possibly with depression and paranoia. I would say that its more the effects of being on the drug constantly rather than a permanant change in his personality. swims been really stoned some times and been in a state that could be called mild schizophrenia, he saw a swarm of scarabs in the sky and kept trying to run away from them! but its usually gone as soon as you sober up.

[69Ron]

We all have different opinions on this and this thread is going nowhere fast. There is no consensus here.

With pot, there is evidence from all points of view. Many contradictory studies exist. There are those that prove I am right, and those that prove I am wrong. My view is based on personal experience, and that for me is more important that what the studies show.

In fact, because there are so many contradictory studies on the effects of pot, pretty much all of the view points given in this thread are personal opinions on the matter and little more. We just pick and choose which study we want to support our opinion and argue that that study is the right one and the others are the flawed ones. Such is the case.

I think until there are final conclusive studies on the effects of pot, we ought to stop talking about this. It’s a waste of forum space. With all the contradictory studies out there it is one giant mess of information out there. Some biased, some wrong, some right, etc. How do you know which is right, which is biased, and which is wrong? Unless you did the studies yourself and you know how they were done and why they are accurate, then you’re just speaking from your own personal point of view and picking and choosing “facts” to back up your claims.

I think the only thing we do agree on is that heavy daily drug use is NOT GOOD FOR YOU no matter what drug it is.

As for the friends that I know that developed schizophrenia from heavy pot use, they do not have schizophrenia in their direct family history, and they never used any other drugs but pot.

I’ve heard of LSD causing people to develop schizophrenia, but I never saw it happen to anyone.

I’ve seen alcoholics develop schizophrenia.

I’ve seen speed users develop schizophrenia.

Despite all the studies in the world, those people now have schizophrenia. Maybe it was caused by the drugs they were using. Maybe not. How can that be proven? It cannot. Because not everyone develops schizophrenia who uses drugs, how can the link be proven or not?

If someone takes LSD and develops schizophrenia, how do we know they were “predisposed” to developing schizophrenia? There is no way to prove they were “predisposed” to developing schizophrenia. That is complete nonsense. You can’t prove that. It’s impossible. People just say that because they feel safer thinking the LSD didn’t cause the schizophrenia. No one wants to think, “man, I gave my dad some LSD and it made him nuts forever. I’m so responsible.” No, instead people want to think, “oh he was predisposed to developing schizophrenia and the LSD just brought it out sooner, that's all”.

I’m not stupid. I know you can’t prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that pot causes schizophrenia, because it’s always possible that the user was already “predisposed” to developing schizophrenia and would have even if they never used any drugs at all. But then again, you can’t prove a user is “predisposed” to developing schizophrenia either. This is why I say I BELIEVE pot directly caused a few buddies to develop schizophrenia. I don’t THINK they were “predisposed” to developing schizophrenia, and neither did their doctors. But there is NO PROOF. We don’t have the science to prove if someone is “predisposed” to developing schizophrenia or not do we?

No one should be taking drugs everyday heavily.

Some pot users smoke it irresponsibly, all day long, everyday, like its tobacco. They are just asking for trouble. These are the pot smokers who usually end up with mental problems of some kind. I’ve never seen a pot chain smoker that was “normal”. They are slow, forgetful, and just plain weird. They are obviously not operating on a fully charged battery.

I’ve seen alcoholics drink themselves to death knowing they had a problem, but couldn’t quit.

I’ve seen tobacco smokers continue smoking while they are on their death bed dying of lung cancer.

None of the LSD users SWIM knows have any problems. LSD cannot be taken everyday. I won't work if taken that often. They are all very sharp and very intelligent. But maybe that's just because SWIM hangs around with people with strong minds as was state earlier in this thread by someone else.

Why do people continue using drugs heavily that are obviously harming them? Why do people damage themselves like that?

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good points. We shouldn't kid ourselves about these type of things.

[jaffacake]

Originally Posted by 69Ron

Despite all the studies in the world, those people now have schizophrenia. Maybe it was caused by the drugs they were using. Maybe not. How can that be proven? It cannot. Because not everyone develops schizophrenia who uses drugs, how can the link be proven or not?

It can be proven because if LSD and pot cause schizophrenia in people then over the last 30-50 years we should have seen an explosion in the number of people developing schizophrenia.

When tobacco use increases, lung cancer rates increases.

[Burnt]

its extremely difficult to prove hence all the contradicting studies. agreed though that this person who this topic was intended to discuss does not seem to be schizophrenic hes just being weird. its hard to judge whats going on in someones life.

[=SKA=]

From personal experience I can say that the Human psyche can bend pretty far out of it's common shape(tend to slightly or even severely psychotic states) and bend back into normal shape without any permanent "disfigurement". I have had emotions become so servere (Due to my girlfriend at the time leaving me suddenly) that I had strange perception-alterations which caused me to see my bedroom's ceiling and 2 cornering walls move as if the 3 bordering surfaces were floating towards, away and then towards eachother again in a breathing kind of fashion.

I was alarmed for sure, but I returned to normal again. You won't believe how resiliant the human mind is. How much it can take before it finally breaks. No need to worry for your friend yet.

In my personal experience with observing people abusing drugs and using psychedelic drugs myself in repeated use in moderation I can say that the people who are most likely to "lose it", and commonly more in a Psychotic way than a Schizophrenic way, are the people who tend to do drugs with Neurotic effects and/or deliriant effects in unhealthy frequencies and doses; People who abuse Cocaine, people who abuse Speed especially, People who abuse alcohol to amounts that have delirious effects, people who combine Psychedelics with Alcohol and/or Amphetamines and people who generally just combine entirely too much different kinds of drugs.

I have a friend who has for a long time abused LSD. LSD is rarely abused but this person is generally a very abusive person, very prone to abuse and overindulge.
He's been comming on somewhat non-stop bordering a psychotic state while in this LSD-abusive period, but now that he's quit abusing drugs and is on a take-it-easy, but still smoke alot of hash-phase, he exhibits no such behaviour anymore.