Side effects - Complete derealization for days after exotic pill

[Synesthesiac]

Hi peeps. SWIM had a strange bout of complete derealization a few days after doing two of these legal pill thingies. Should probably mention also that SWIM was also using xtc the previous week, and far too much of it (about 20 pills in all over a week), and four days after this binge when the comedown had subsided decided to take a couple of these legal ones called exotic (apparently containing 200mg BZP, 100mg trifluoromethylphenylpiperazine (TFMPP), plus boosters, vitamins and amino acids). The experience was pretty bad to be honest, SWIM just felt wierd, his pupils went huge, his body felt numb, he was clenching his teeth, he felt very paranoid, and didn't experience any of the effects of inhibition and hapiness he does on xtc. At times there were good moments, relaxing and numblessness, but this was outweighed by the negative. It kept SWIM awake for like 24 hours. When SWIM did finally get to sleep he woke up the next day and felt hungover, but not too bad. After this however, the next night, SWIM slept for about 22 WHOLE HOURS the next day, and woke up feeling REALLY weird. Its hard to describe, but everything felt mystical, and nostalgic, it was like what SWIM was experiencing was a dream, when infact it was real life. SWIM made some very strange descicions over the next few days, and felt really unable to cope with any serious issues. It just felt unreal, and everything was feeling really weird to SWIM, like it was a dream with a mystical tint to it. I think you would call it a brief psychotic episode. SWIM also had occasional bout of sudden feelings of impending doom, as if something really bad was about to happen, but he didn't know what. It felt as if the world and his life was going to end, but no reason why this was the case. It was kinda scary. This effect subsided though when he distracted himself with a task or action.

After a couple of days of normal sleep (SWIM made sure he didn't get too much like the previous day that caused this, about 6 hours a night) SWIM retured to normal. SWIM felt a lot better after he had a sunbathe, which may be related to melatonin levels, or somthing. But it was not a nice experience. I thought it might be a permanent change to SWIM. At least when it was happening SWIM was able to notice he wasn't normal, so it wasn't full psychosis where the person is not aware that their actions are a bit weird, which is why he made sure he got good sleep the next few days and went out in the sun. But SWIM still did do some odd things while in this state.

Has anyone else experienced this on BZP/TFMPP? I have heard that psychosis has been reported after use of this substance, so was wondering if anyone here has had similar experiences like this.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Nasty but interesting experience, thanks.

[fiveleggedrat]

A lot of bad pills float around with ingredients worse than their stated contents. Case in point: Pills with DXM.

Swim's experience on BZP/TFMPP was just that of tweaking, and nothing at all like the above.

[Swimster]

20 E doses in a week are way too much to begin with... Sasha himslef claims that 4 within a year are the most one should take. Or else the "magic" will dissapear.

other than that, swim has no input...

Reputation Comments on this post:

unrelated, irrelevant, drivel

[Synesthesiac]

Originally Posted by Swimster

20 E doses in a week are way too much to begin with... Sasha himslef claims that 4 within a year are the most one should take. Or else the "magic" will dissapear.

Yeah, SWIM is well aware of this now, and has been off them for a good week or so now, and has vowed to only xtc do at a minimum of a monthly basis.

I'm wondering if the xtc was still effecting SWIM more (even after five days) than these legal pills did, and whether it was the xtc comedown or the pills that did this to SWIM. Its hard to tell, SWIM certainly felt like all comedown off the pills had gone after five days.

[Synesthesiac]

Another thing that may have contributed is that swim had been a daily cannabis user for the previous six years, but went cold turkey the week before (thus why he did the xtc). I've also heard reports that stopping cannabis use suddenly can cause psychosis type symptoms.

What was weird though was it was definately the sleep that seemed to do it, as SWIM was fine the day after the exotic pill, and only felt weird after his 16 hour sleepathon. The feeling that something bad was going to happen was the worst part. Apparently it was like a panic attack, but without any logical reason for the panic, swim just felt like something really bad was about to happen, but with absolutely no reason why this was the case. It was just a complete illogical fear that the world and everything was literally going to end, but no hint as to why swim was thinking this. Weird stuff. Glad swims over it. The feeling of dreaming was so weird, I cant describe it, even though swim knew what was going on was real in the back of his head, it felt more like a memory with a nostalgic mystical tint to it. And he also felt slightly physically numb, which came in bouts, a couple of times his whole body felt numb, especially his jaw and hand when touching stuff. And, accompaning the weird feeling of despair that came a couple of times, were feeling of mainia (where you feel really happy, too much so that it makes you come over overexcited), and this would come and go very rapidly, one hour he'd feel really high and up for anything, and the next hour really depressed and down. It was like a very rapid effecting Bi-polar disorder, that swim felt completely out of control of, as there seemed no reason for these changes in mood, they just happened out of the blue. There are references that describe very rapid (ultra-rapid) or extremely rapid (ultra-ultra or ultradian) bi-polar cycling, but this is over 24 hours, I think that a one hour cycle is pretty much unheard of. (see:Ultra-ultra rapid cycling bipolar disorder is associated with the low activity catecholamine-O-methyltransferase allele)

SWIM just wants to get to the bottom of it, and is hoping someone else has a similar experience to describe so we can look for any similarities as to what may have caused it. It could have been the exotic pills, it could have been the after effects of the pill binge, it could have been the stopping smoking weed after such a long time. Its definately related to the sleep though, 16 hours is a very unhealthy amount, and it happened after this. And that night, when all the sleep happened, SWIM actually kept waking up after about 10 hours sleep or so, but he felt very tired still and went back to sleep every time, not really noticing how long he had been sleeping for. And he had some amazingly vivid dreams during this sleeping/waking period, the most vivid dreams he has ever had. And he also still felt as if he was tired for the rest of day, if he had tried to go to sleep again he could have easily, which would definately NOT have been healthy. I shudder to think what would have happened if SWIM had done that and not forced himself to wake up when he realized how long he had slept for.

Any takers on what excessive sleep does to your brain that may cause this? I've gotten too much sleep before (about 12 hours), and certainly felt slightly wierd the next day, but not to the extent that swim felt it.

Synesthesiac added 279 Minutes and 30 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by Swimster

Sasha himslef claims that 4 within a year are the most one should take. Or else the "magic" will dissapear.

Sasha? ..... Shulgin???

[Mint boi]

Products containing BZP, tfmpp or any other piperazine are not herbal and as such don't belong in the Herbal xtc section, but instead in the piperazine subforum of the Research Chemical section.
Also linking to a commercial site is a breach of the forum rules, which you might want to re-read.

[Synesthesiac]

Originally Posted by Mint boi

Products containing BZP, tfmpp or any other piperazine are not herbal and as such don't belong in the Herbal xtc section, but instead in the piperazine subforum of the Research Chemical section.

Ah, right. the guy who sold me them said they were "natural herbal ecstasy pills", so i thought this would be the right place. Obviously not.

Also linking to a commercial site is a breach of the forum rules, which you might want to re-read.

Yeah. Just recieved my infraction god damn. Not gonna do that again.

[fiveleggedrat]

I checked out the commerical link while it was there, and it really gave no answers anyways. The usual type of dishonest merchants.

[Swimster]

^^ yess...indeed. Shulgin.

...Ann also says-so: http://www.erowid.org/culture/charac...terview2.shtml

[sterling77]

Derealization is a bitch, for real. Sorry to hear about that, swim should start taking a high quality fish oil. I would strongly recommend that.

[Synesthesiac]

Originally Posted by sterling77

Derealization is a bitch, for real. Sorry to hear about that, swim should start taking a high quality fish oil. I would strongly recommend that.

swims already on it, and multivitamins and 5-htp. It happened a good few months ago, and he's felt fine ever since luckily.

[JoeNeal]

Swim thinks he can relate to swiys dream like state of mind but not sure if 20 pills would be more to blame than the two legal pills swiy took?

Swim recalls some bad times he went through about 10yrs ago which followed after many months if not years of heavy weekend abuse of pills containing MDMA & god know what else, often combining with AMP and was also smoking weed like it was going out of fashion on daily basis but never knowingly involving any research chemical or legal high type products.

Although none of this was ever documented by swim he still remembers the way he felt like it was only last week. While in the early months of swims party rituals swim always felt amazing when he took pills but eventually swim began to feel less effects from them so as time went on swim took more. The more swim took the more he used to just sledge, feeling tired and groggy. Then swim introduced speed to the mix which worked well for a while but again, after a few months or so swim began to tired but paranoid with it and depressed while on the stuff. It was like swim began to not look forward to weekends anymore, anticipating really bad feelings and associating the bad feelings with going out clubbing. However, swim just could not stop himself when weekends came around. Paranoia and bouts of depression eventually became so uncontrollable that in the end nights out were always terrible, sometimes agonising experiences. As a consequence, serious damage was inflicted to a very dear, long term relationship with swims girlfriend and what were once close ties with family members eventually became quite distant.

Despite this swim pressed on through this punishment for a long, long time until one Sunday afternoon, after a particularly hard Friday / Saturday session. Swim was waiting in a queue in a local convenience store and must have been so fucked up when he suddenly had an epileptic fit while standing up on the spot. Swims girlfriend was completely shocked by this and could not believe what was happening. Swim had never suffered from any form of epilepsy before or this happened (very scary stuff to swim at the time). It was from around this time onwards that swim began to experience things in every day life that was different from before.

Swim can give a few examples of this which he thinks may be similar to dream like state swiy has described. Swim would just be driving along in car or simply walking by, feeling quite normal when suddenly he would seem to focus on something out of the blue then be aware of chemical smell and at the same time experienced strange sensations in the stomach and head then things would start to feel weird like the world was not real, almost like slipping into dream state but still being fully in control in all other respects. Swim thinks he knows what swiy means by everything seemed mystical and nostalgic. On top of this swim would see white traces of light left by passing vehicles, etc. This feeling would not last too long and felt kind of good when it came on but made swim feel depressed when the feeling subsided. Other time swim remembers finishing work one night, on way home, radio was on and playing to some kind of dance mix. Again swim recalls strange smell and detached feelings. Music did not seem real, like he was making it up in his head but it was definitely coming from radio. All kinds of irrational thoughts were flowing through swims mind. This one lasted for quite a while and swim eventually broke down, sobbing heavily and felt very depressed indeed.

There would always be an event that seemed to trigger these states but could they could happen at any time, normally during weekdays and probably more frequent in early mornings or early evening. Swim would suddenly find himself involuntarily focusing on a random, everyday object, like it could simply be something like a paper bag blowing across the street or a semi familiar face walking past or just anything really but it was as if the object was related to something swim had just remembered from a recent recurring dream or could describe like deja-vu. It wouldn’t necessarily be a visible object either as in the audio example swim refers to when music on radio in car was the trigger.

It seemed like swim was going insane and was around this time when swim decided to have break from drugs but continued to smoke weed as it seemed to comfort him. The dreamy states would still come and go as would bouts of depression although intensity began to fade over time. Eventually swim tried taking St John's Wort for a couple of weeks which actually cleared up the depression quite well and dreamy states had become far less frequent. Swim still got traces which thinking back could have lingered on for a good few years after.

Swim no longer suffers with any of the described symptoms like he had in the bad old days. Swim still takes pills on very occasional nights out and smokes weed on and off but swim is far more responsible with stuff now than he used to be. Quite recently swim has began to experiment with legal high pep mixes amd with no reported ill effects so far.

[Synesthesiac]

Originally Posted by JoeNeal

Swim thinks he knows what swiy means by everything seemed mystical and nostalgic. On top of this swim would see white traces of light left by passing vehicles, etc. This feeling would not last too long and felt kind of good when it came on but made swim feel depressed when the feeling subsided. Other time swim remembers finishing work one night, on way home, radio was on and playing to some kind of dance mix. Again swim recalls strange smell and detached feelings. Music did not seem real, like he was making it up in his head but it was definitely coming from radio. All kinds of irrational thoughts were flowing through swims mind. This one lasted for quite a while and swim eventually broke down, sobbing heavily and felt very depressed indeed.

That does sound similar, but swims lasted for a couple of days and was constant, after the night of wierd sleep. Swim can totally relate to the detatched feelings, swim felt as if he was a was a zombie, I mean he was perfectly OK to do basic tasks, he wrote some posts on forums (about kinda weird stuff he wouldn't usually have been interested in though, like a long thread about the abilities of a talking parrot ), drove his car about, but just felt emotionally detatched from his surroundings. Swim remembers that when deciding what courses he might take at uni with someone, he felt incapable of making those decisions, as they required an emotional perspective that he couldn't seem to get his head around, he just kept agreeing with the person searching through the courses and saying yes or no without proper thought. Felt really distant. When Swim read the list a few days later, he was amazed he had said yes to some of them.

Swim would suddenly find himself involuntarily focusing on a random, everyday object, like it could simply be something like a paper bag blowing across the street or a semi familiar face walking past or just anything really but it was as if the object was related to something swim had just remembered from a recent recurring dream or could describe like deja-vu.

Thats a very good way to desscribe it, like a constant ongoing deja-vu feeling. That weird feeling you get for a second or two, like you've dreamt this before or that been in this exact senario before, but for me it felt like that constantly. Unreal feeling.

Eventually swim tried taking St John's Wort for a couple of weeks which actually cleared up the depression quite well and dreamy states had become far less frequent.

I've just started taking that stuff too, its good shit. Seems to be working. I'm glad it hasn't come back. Such a weird feeling. I think they've got some pretty good treatments for derealization nowadays though, so if it happens again I'll probably go and see my GP. That is, If i'm capable of it in that state, and dont get distracted with playing music to birds again

[JoeNeal]

When swiy said he felt like a zombie, with fucked up sleep, emotionally empty, etc. swim thinks that was absolutely bang on to say that as it just reminded swim of something really fucked up that happened just proir to when swim said things started to go weird. Swim recalls feeling like his brain was fried out after one mega binge. Don't ask swim what qty's he had taken but was out with the peeps all day and night and involved dropping silly amounts of speed combined with no end of pills and more speed on top, going right the way through. It was more of a coma than a sleep swim that swim found himself in when he eventually came down which swim thinks may have lasted like a couple of days. However, instead of really coming down properley swim reached a sinister platue which left him in a very undisirable position, like being in limbo between reality and hell. Swim was OK to function but went round feeling like he had taken a bullet through his brain. Also remembers noticing a mass of yellow/white circular, think chemical burn on swims tongue when he looked in mirror. As for emotions, swim felt completly devoid of any trace. Swim would have worst sleep ever and was not able to recover as normal. Swim think it took about a week to see thinks begin to heal a little.

Yes swim deffinately recalls this event being some where around 2 wks before the epi-fit. Now that swim thinks on he also remembers another freeky thing what happened about 1 wk on from start of comedown. Whilst sitting down in friends house he recalls one side body being almost completely numb and like pins & needles all the way from head to toe. This also affected swims speach, like mild stroke or some shit. Luckily swim was able to shake this off before it got a real grip of him and did not last very long. TBH swim was feeling pretty numb all over anyway with a head that felt as if it's brain wad been swilling in a nurotoxic chemical bath. Despte this, things did start to feel a little better after 1st 2 wks but swim recons this is from where those twisted little coming-up, dejavu'ies were dirived from. The thing swim leaned from this experience was if stimulants must be taken then swim will never mix his stimulants with other stimulants again. Swim knows everyswiy is different from everyswiy else but perhaps the legal pills would not mix well for swim either.

Swim, until only last weekend had never tried legal pills before never mind combining with mdma for that matter. Swim and wife gots a few packs of Orange x-tra (legal e's) and had interesting night out. They were quite surprised at just how potent the caps were. Swim would try caps again but thinks he would experiment with more of an (controlled) alcohol fuelled night rather than aiming for an mdma influenced high. Would seek mdma instead if that interested swim. Can't imagine swim ever combining these legal high types of pills with any real mdma or speed.

[Synesthesiac]

Originally Posted by JoeNeal

involved dropping silly amounts of speed combined with no end of pills and more speed on top, going right the way through. It was more of a coma than a sleep swim that swim found himself in when he eventually came down which swim thinks may have lasted like a couple of days.

Same here, the pills swim took were high speed content. On the final day of the binge he took like ten which he is never gonna do again, and he has always done pure MDMA since. The comedown the next day wasn't too bad for swim, but he wasn't sociable at all. swim now thinks it was the pills, thinking back, but maybe the exotic pill just topped it off.

Also remembers noticing a mass of yellow/white circular, think chemical burn on swims tongue when he looked in mirror. As for emotions, swim felt completly devoid of any trace.

Nasty. swim doesn't think he had this.

Swim would have worst sleep ever and was not able to recover as normal. Swim think it took about a week to see thinks begin to heal a little.

Sleep wasn't really hard for swim, but it definately was related to weird sleep habits, as you saw above. Not much sleep after the exotic pill, for 24 hours, followed by far too much.

Now that swim thinks on he also remembers another freeky thing what happened about 1 wk on from start of comedown. Whilst sitting down in friends house he recalls one side body being almost completely numb and like pins & needles all the way from head to toe.

swim had this too a couple of days ago after mdma! but only in his arm, chest and head on the left side. woke him up. was tingling for like five minutes then went away. kinda weird, and definately not a good sign.

TBH swim was feeling pretty numb all over anyway with a head that felt as if it's brain wad been swilling in a nurotoxic chemical bath.

Now this is something swim can relate to from his odd few days. swim got sudden bouts of feeling, not just emotionally numb, but physically numb. It would come and go, a couple of times it was real strong swim was feeling about his his face and body with his hands and couldn't really feel much at all. Only happened briefly though.

swim wondering of these symptoms are caused by the speed and mdma in excess when combined, as this was both they seemed to have in common. MDMA depletes serotonin and (I think) that speed depletes dopamine, and probably other things. and the sleep ties in somwhere too, probably related to the serotogenic system. nice to see its not that uncommon.

[Mega maniac]

SWIM was just searching on these forums to see if these comedowns were the same for eveybody on these pills. SWIMM remembers when "creamfields" were going around. They basically had no MDMA in them and had pleanty of the legal alternatives, be they BZP, MCPP etc. The comedown from these pills was ghastly, you felt physically fine but mentally detached. Talking and interacting in a group is hard and un-nerving, just telling a friend about SWIMM's night out sent his heart racing like he was stading infront of an audience performing (which is real life SWIMM is actually very good at).

A year down the line and on NYE SWIMM takes a fair few pills again, he feels md in the buzz, but with the skitsy-ness of speed. Later on in the night SWIMM decided to snort a little bit of a pill (dont do this kids, if you don't know exactly whats in a pill you couldn't be much stupider) and tasted what he immidiatly recognised as the legal drug alternatives. A very sharp tangy taste with an almost burning sensation on contact.

SWIMM stopped taking them after this, he wonders if there was any MD in the pills atall, there was almost definatly speed of somsort, but SWIMM thinks the rest of the high may have been purly down to the BZP/MCPP that was in the pills.

And sure enough SWIMM reognised the comedown aswell. At first SWIMM couldnt sleep, despite starting the party at 8pm new years eve leaving the party at 4pm new years day, going over to girlfriends and staying there until 8pm, taking her back to his and staying up until 12am ish, at this point he should have been tired, he'd been dancing all night, not eaten since the party began and just spent the best part of 4 hours sleeping with his GF. Yet SWIMM lay there in bed until 6am before he could sleep, he had taken multivits to try and aid the sleep but no such luck.

At work the next day SWIMM tried to eat some pasta but couldnt manage more than half a portion. Work was ok, SWIMM's mind was functioning enough for him to do his job (waiting at frankie anf bennies) but he wasn't enjoying it and couln't properly interact with the customers. SWIMM then went out for a few drinks after work which was ok. He went back to his with a mate who he knows well, smoked a bit of bud which only made him feel nervous and jittery. SWIMM went to bed hoping that would be the end of this comedown. When SWIMM woke he felt a bit groggy but ok, he went over to his mates only to find the same nervousness in company. A few other mates came over and being part of the conversation was proving very difficult and nerve-wracking for SWIMM.

There is no way these drugs are worth it for the comedown involved. SWIMM talked to alot of people from the night who also felt pretty bad for a few days after, all describing simmilar symptoms.

SWIMM knows these drugs are new and as such un-tested on a mass market scale, but if the comedown is anything to go by I would expect heavy usage of these drugs could cause serious mental damage. That is if anyone is stupid enough to take them repeatedly with that comedown!

[ProfTaster]

Good post Mega maniac.

There is no way these drugs are worth it for the comedown involved. SWIMM talked to alot of people from the night who also felt pretty bad for a few days after, all describing simmilar symptoms.

SWIMM knows these drugs are new and as such un-tested on a mass market scale, but if the comedown is anything to go by I would expect heavy usage of these drugs could cause serious mental damage.

I agree. Also, these drugs appear to be (are) ridiculously badly research. Not only that but no-one reputable (e.g. psychiatric agencies, and dare I say, Government) seems to be interested in researching them.

The mode of action and immediate euphoric effects seem to be broadly the same as MDMA, but why such a vastly different comedown? What is the biomolecular reason for that?

Things are as they seem alot of the time, MM, and I think your assessment of the neurotoxic potential of BZP/TFMPP is right on the mark.

[Synesthesiac]

Originally Posted by ProfTaster

The mode of action and immediate euphoric effects seem to be broadly the same as MDMA

This is what the companies selling them always say, but its UTTER BOLLOCKS! You may get a few people who have never done proper MDMA saying that they felt really euphoric and happy just like ectsasy makes you feel, the chances are these people have always had pills that were not MDMA but full of this crap, so they dont know what to compare it to, and presume that the very slight euphoria and change in perception they experience is what MDMA is all about. Its totally different to MDMA. A horrible buzz in comparison to the pure bliss of true MDMA.

Maybe this is just a personal preference, but I have yet to find anyone who prefers these things to MDMA. That is, people that really have tried MDMA and not ones that think they have tried MDMA by doing a random pill that actually isn't MDMA at all.

but why such a vastly different comedown?

Not sure, they are completely different drugs so the comedown will vary. One thing for sure is that MDMA has been studied in far more detail than BZP/TFMPP, and studies into MDMA have shown again and again that it really is quite a benign drug in terms of neurotoxicity or general damage to the body. In my opinion the laws for these drugs are backwards, MDMA should be the legal one, not the BZP stuff.

But, millions of people have used these piperazines and 'legal' highs now and so far no really serious adverse effects have emerged, which is worth noting. If there have had been lots of really serious health reactions then they would have recieved more attention, and been banned very quickly. The fact that they haven't so far shows that they are likely not very neurotoxic or damaging, which is a good sign. The most serious effect they cause seems to be the one this thread is about, making people go a bit mad the days after, a breif psychotic break or (like swim here) weird derealization. But all is well now. Swim can still just about remember the state he was in before he wrote this thread last year, which is enough to stop him taking any pills from now on. Only pure MDMA crystals for swim now

[Mega maniac]

The way the government controls drugs is ridiculous, the very act of making a drug illegal is what makes it dangerous to the users. Surly those drugs that are illegal to us should be more harmful than those that are legal, but the case is quite the opposite.

If you look at SWIMM's other threads you will see a post about a friend who seemed to be losing his mind. SWIMM at first blamed it on weed but after a while the signs weren't consistent. But it was surprising how when on these comedowns the prevailing thought on SWIMM's mind was that this must be how his friend was feeling.

SWIMM has watched extasy in his uni town go from being amazing and it being hard to get hold of a bad pill to nearly every single pill available being filled with this crap. This generation is being opened up to this new drug and due to the governments inability to properly keep track of new substances the test rats are the drug using population.

SWIMM wouldn't be surprised at all if these new drugs have contributed to his friends state of mind, how are we to know what the long term effects of these drugs are? As long as people who press pills get less time in the slammer for putting this shit in their drugs finding a good pill is going to become increasingly more difficult.

Don't take the chance, buy MDMA.