Comedown - mental break from Ayahuasca usage

[bettyjay]

My son went on a trip to Peru for a ten day cermony using ayahuasca one day and a mild tea on opposite days. The journey was fine, but 3 days later be came mentally unbalanced - hallucinations, inappropriate behavior, paranoia. The other 8 members are fine - they brought him back to the states, but it's been 10 days and he's not much better and not integrated into his body. I'm told sometime, rarely, it can take weeks before you are back in your body. I'm hesitant to bring in medical dr. as I think they will hospitalize him. He is now with good lifetime friends who are with him 24 hours a day. Does anyone have any experience with the long term effects such as he is exhibiting and what suggestions can you give me.

Thanks,
Bettyjay

[endlessnes]

it is not very common for any problems like this to arise out of knowhere.. does he have any history of mental issues, difficulties he was passing recently and so on? any history in the family of mental issues?

or maybe the work wasnt done properly, in which case he maybe terminated his experiences without having worked out the information that was coming up..

I think the best bet is to talk to him, and take him firstly to a bit more open minded psychologist (not psychiatrist), see if he can work it out through some kind of non-intrusive non-medication-based therapy.. only in the last case, imo, if none of that works out after a couple of weeks or month or so, and he is unhappy, unproductive, hurting people around him or so on, take him to a psychiatrist...

Psychiatrists would probably medicate him with either anxyolitic or anti-psychotic medication. This kind of medication removes ´symptoms´ and feelings but does not deal with the roots of the issue. In this way, he wont be dealing with things that are coming up. Its important to understand that symptoms are, in a way, the attempt of the body to heal, so if symptoms are removed, so is the chance of a real cure.

good luck

Reputation Comments on this post:

	positive, valuable advice
	Good advice, no point in simply covering up symptoms.

[bettyjay]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. His girlfriend of 3 years broke up with him 4 days before the trip and it was very hard on him - she also was part of the group of 8 that went to Peru. He doesn't have a history of any mental illness, although I am diagnoised with thymic depression. He has been watched and taken care of by good people for the past 2 weeks and doesn't seem to be getting any better. He's 32 but has no insurance. I too feel the last resort is hospitalizing. I will work on finding an experienced counselor in the Las Vegas area. Thanks again

[drainlife20]

He's hallucinating still? Geez. People really need to quit treating stories like this as if they're drug propaganda. People need to realize that these drugs truly make your brain temporarily malfunction. If anybody tells you it's 100% safe, they're lying. Stress, fear, and trauma can stay with you for the rest of your life. Normally, I wouldn't be worried, but he's still hallucinating? Wow. He had a very traumatic experience. I'd suggest reading up on Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, and try to help him that way. He may just be scared still, but he's still hallucinating? That isn't right at all. Not after this long, his body should have gotten rid of excess DMT by now.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Appreciate your note of caution, but you really need to learn more about the drugs being discussed before attempting to ...

[endlessnes]

Originally Posted by drainlife20

He's hallucinating still? Geez. People really need to quit treating stories like this as if they're drug propaganda. People need to realize that these drugs truly make your brain temporarily malfunction. If anybody tells you it's 100% safe, they're lying. Stress, fear, and trauma can stay with you for the rest of your life. Normally, I wouldn't be worried, but he's still hallucinating? Wow. He had a very traumatic experience. I'd suggest reading up on Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, and try to help him that way. He may just be scared still, but he's still hallucinating? That isn't right at all. Not after this long, his body should have gotten rid of excess DMT by now.

I dont know if you were talking about me but im definitely not saying this story is drug propaganda.. In fact im very concerned and wish this person the best.. I can imagine how for a mom this must be hard..

what I said is that this is not common, which is true, its definitely not common.. and usually when it does happen, it is connected with latent mental problems or difficult issues that werent properly dealt with during the trip (like maybe this dude´s recent break up with a 3 years girlfriend, who even was there during the rituals)... Its hard to imagine someone healthy and normal would suddenly out of knowhere become crazy in a well guided trip.. I guess it is possible but rare.. regardless of this, though, I suggested to her that she should try finding some therapist to help him work this out...

and obviously in the last case there is always medication.. but I certainly hope he gets well before this is necessary

[bettyjay]

Thanks again for your thoughts. Yes, he is still having psychotic breaks and is showing signs of ODC. I am thinking about if we medical intervention at this point. I can't tell you how much I hate to even think of that. I know they will drug him up and not really treat the fundamental problelm.

[Synesthesiac]

I have a few recommendations. I'm not sure of his exact condition, it would help for you to explain a bit more if you possibly could. Is he still hallucinating now? Is is frequent or just occasional? Is he aware they are not real and he's just un-nerved by them, or does he think what he is seeing is actually real? Are conversations possible with him? and to what extent?

Firstly, tell everyone to act normal around him and pretend that theres nothing wrong with him. Keep telling him that he's much better than he was. Often if a person going through a bad period and everyone starts acting differently towards them, even though they are trying to help them, the person can feel even more as if there is something wrong, as the behaviour they are seeing around them isn't what they are used to. Make him do some tasks that he may have done before to renormalize him in his environment, go for a small walk, talk about fun past experiences, do something he enjoys doing, make him think about what fun things he plans to do in the future with his life, and generally keep him occupied. Leaving him lying in bed with nothing to do is not advisable.

Secondly, make sure he's got plenty of vitamins and minerals. This is highly unlikely to be the cause of his symptoms, but its amazing what a good supply of multivitamins and minerals can do to help bring a brain back to its normal state. If you suspect that giving him vitamin pills may cause him to think things that may not be benficial to his condition, use some water soluble ones and put it in a drink. You could tell him your giving him vitamins if you think he'll be okay with that. Getting sunlight on his skin will help this a little extra, which raises vitamin and (probably more crucially) melatonin levels, and has been shown to be mildly beneficial to people with psychosis. DMT is thought to be made in small amounts in the brain from melatonin and various other substances, so there is a vague link between melatonin and DMT. A day out in the sun may be a good idea to see if this shows any appreciable difference to his symptoms.

Thirdly, if nothing seems to be improving and he's in an OK state for a conversation with someone, as previously recommended, take him to see a psychologist, and try to get one that is open minded about drug use. It is possible that he may have brought up some memories of something he's having difficulty coping with, which a psychologist may be able to get to the bottom of what this is and help him through it. And I suggest, though I appreciate the last thing you may want to do right now is give him any other substance, that MDMA therapy may be a suitable option if you can find a psychologist willing to participate. The army have recently begun to use it all the time to treat post traumatic stress disorder, with truly spectacular results, it really helps people open up and speak whats on their mind and recover from their condition (see this article for more information on this: Ecstasy is the key to treating PTSD). Though I would seek further advise from an expert in the area of MDMA therapy, and get some further opinions from people in this field before taking this step.

Fourthly, I would speak to a psychoactive drug expert. If you can get in contact with Rick Strassman, considered the worlds leading expert on DMT and how it effects the brain and how our brains produce it, he may have some ideas about what may help, maybe be able to recall similar experiences, and I'm sure he'd be helpful in this this situation if you can contact him by e-mail, or better, by phone. This is his area of study after all. Dave Nichols is another expert on psychoactives that springs to mind, but there are many more at various universities that I'm sure would be willing to help and offer advise, the previous two I mentioned will proabably be able to direct you to better suited experts on psychoactives, and some may possibly even have a look at him, as this is a rare occurence which they may want to resolve and document.

Hope that helps a bit, hope he gets better soon.

PS. On reflection, It may be better to try my fourth point before the third one.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Good advice, although I don't know how likely it is that she could get help directly from Strassman or Nichols
	very helpful answer
	Good post
	good advice
	Great information.

[endlessnes]

good advices synesthesiac

[Synesthesiac]

If you have any further queries about mental health issues bettyjay, please ask, a close friend of mine is a manager of a major mental health organization here in the UK and has extensive practical experience in this area, from people who are completely barking mad with psychosis and seeing things, to people with just minor personality disorders, so I can ask her for any advise on a daily basis about your sons condition if you keep us up to date. Looks like I just posted my last post literally a minute after you posted yours, so you may have missed my advise for now. Drop me a private message if you want to speak in private.

Some reassurance: No-one who experiences psychotic symptoms has them last forever. Usually if a person is having a bad episode brought on by a traumatic experience it lasts for a week or two, and gradually over a period of months they will return to normal, given that they are in a suitable environment to aid recovery. Usually a completely full recovery, with the appropriate care and support, can be made within two months, to a maximum of a year.

Antipsychotic drugs should ALWAYS be used as a last resort. Doctors far to realidy prescribe them to people nowadays, so you really should try every other method before trying this. Try some of the advise in my above post, but if all else fails you should be conforted that, although antipsychotics are not the ideal solution to any problem, they certainly do work to ease the worst symptoms of psychosis type states.

Regards, Synesthesiac

[polidelaiko]

Ayahuasca it not always just DMT or DMT at all. Around this places people drink a variation wich they call wando, and its basically a floripondio (brugmansia) tea.

Reputation Comments on this post:

important info

[Frond]

Originally Posted by polidelaiko

Ayahuasca it not always just DMT or DMT at all. Around this places people drink a variation wich they call wando, and its basically a floripondio (brugmansia) tea.

This.

I'm far from an expert, but it really sounds like there was something other than DMT/MAOI involved. Oral DMT should not cause these kinds of symptoms, but scopolamines certainly can, if the dose is high enough (note: observation based on purely anecdotal evidence here). I think the first step will be to determine what exactly the subject took, and what transpired while he was taking it. Talking to an expert in these matters would also be very advisable as a place to begin. I would not suggest any kind of serious drug therapy until there is as accurate a diagnosis, and as much information as possible.

[chemii]

Originally Posted by polidelaiko

Ayahuasca it not always just DMT or DMT at all. Around this places people drink a variation wich they call wando, and its basically a floripondio (brugmansia) tea.

Good point mate!!! THIS IS VERY LIKELY TO BE THE CASE!!! Tropan alkaloids are rubish they don`t give you proper hallucinations only some sort of nasty deliriums with sneaky hallucinations .sometimes you think you allright and experience is over and then bang and you see something what is not real.In some reports people were even blind for few days or just seen only two colours, black and white even week after experience. ILPT knew some exfriends and heard horrible stories about people end up in madhouse after ingesting atropin, scopolamin, l-hyoscyamin, or other tropan alkaloids.
Harmala alkaloids have synergic effect with tropans so even small dose can by powerized by them and mess up your head.
ILPT suggest bettyjay to visit specialist who is experienced with curing tropan alkaloids poisoning.
BEWARE of tropans they are hellish unlike DMT

Reputation Comments on this post:

You seem to need some reading on the word "hallucination" as Datura DOES produce true hallucinations, psychede...

[Entropymancer]

I know a couple people who have come out of a trip in a bad way... not a complete psychotic break, but very much not feeling properly integrated. They found that that tripping again a few days later allowed them to work through the problem, so that they were able to come out of that trip properly oriented. Taking the analogy of tripping as mental housekeeping, they left the first trip without sorting things properly, leaving things all strewn about, and the subsequent trip allowed them to return and put things back in order.

Don't know if that's helpful, or adviseable in the case of a full mental break, but it was a helpful strategy for a couple people.

[Synesthesiac]

Originally Posted by Entropymancer

I know a couple people who have come out of a trip in a bad way... not a complete psychotic break, but very much not feeling properly integrated. They found that that tripping again a few days later allowed them to work through the problem, so that they were able to come out of that trip properly oriented. Taking the analogy of tripping as mental housekeeping, they left the first trip without sorting things properly, leaving things all strewn about, and the subsequent trip allowed them to return and put things back in order.

Don't know if that's helpful, or adviseable in the case of a full mental break, but it was a helpful strategy for a couple people.

Now this is interesting. I wouldn't personally reccommend it, but I can see how it might work, the brain might re-live the experience and return to its normal state sucessfully from this later attempt, whereas the previous return to normal consciousnes was interupted for whatever reason. (This the same entropymaster on the DMT nexus? If so, you certainly know what your talking about)

But I'm sure the last thing that they want to do is give him more of the thing that made him flip out in the first place. Maybe as a final resort, but I would try other solutions first. Doing more may just excasserbate the symptoms, you never really know. You would certainly need to get advise from a psychoactive drug expert before doing this.

[Entropymancer]

Yep, this is the same Entropymancer from the Nexus, the Shroomery, etc.

And I agree, that wouldn't be a course to take lightly. As you say, it could exacerbate the symptoms. If one were to attempt something like that in these circumstances, it would be best if it could be facilitated by a psychologist who is experienced in guiding LSD- or psilocybin-therapy sessions. Unfortunately such people are few and far between, and are not really able to advertize their experience in these matters.

[drainlife20]

No, I wasn't suggesting that you were brushing this off as propaganda, endlessness. I've read a few trip reports in which people had terrible trips involving drugs that aren't traditionally psychedelic. Almost any drug can be psychedelic, it all depends on you, and your brain. I've read about young kids experiencing "the void" because they smoked marijuana! They share their story, and end up being assaulted by people telling them that they're lying, that it's impossible, that their weed must have been laced, that they're crazy and the weed somehow set it off. I'm not convinced that drugs can forever rewire your brain or set anything off, although I'm no professional and there are some studies that suggest otherwise. There is however, concrete proof that long term drug use can cause long term problems. I don't know what would be considered long term use when it comes to psychedelics, but I do know that this is an unusual situation that led to this.

Have you ever heard of anybody doing aya every day for 10 days? This sounds pretty uncommon to me. Did he ever come down completely between doses? Man, I couldn't really imagine how that could have been. Especially if his aya had 5-MeO-DMT as well. 40+ hours in the void over 10 days, screw screw screw that.

[Synesthesiac]

Originally Posted by drainlife20

Have you ever heard of anybody doing aya every day for 10 days?

Strangely, yes, I have. Some shamans would spend up to a month under its influence when meditating on issues, but they are all very well balanced people.

This is what seems to be the problem, the length of time he was using it for. Spending that much time in the DMT world you wouldn't be surprised that he either developed some odd ideas about his life when on the trip that are effecting him now, or that the shock of returning to normal reality after being so high for so long has envoked a bad responce.

[endlessnes]

Originally Posted by drainlife20

Have you ever heard of anybody doing aya every day for 10 days? This sounds pretty uncommon to me. Did he ever come down completely between doses? Man, I couldn't really imagine how that could have been. Especially if his aya had 5-MeO-DMT as well. 40+ hours in the void over 10 days, screw screw screw that.

Originally Posted by Synesthesiac

Strangely, yes, I have. Some shamans would spend up to a month under its influence when meditating on issues, but they are all very well balanced people.

This is what seems to be the problem, the length of time he was using it for. Spending that much time in the DMT world you wouldn't be surprised that he either developed some odd ideas about his life when on the trip that are effecting him now, or that the shock of returning to normal reality after being so high for so long has envoked a bad responce.

yes it happens quite often that people do over a week of ayahuasca every single day. It normally happens when one is receiving some sort of initiation, passing through a dieta and so on. Basically all shamans will normally have done this at least once, staying isolated and taking ayahuasca and eating very little, strict diet, for many many days. Foreigners also do this in some specific situations.

People from santo daime and other urban religions may have a certain period where the ´work´ calender is full and over the course of a few weeks they have many cerimonies.

and no, it won´t make you crazy.. in fact, ayahuasca (MAOIS+dmt, no other admixture) seems to be the psychedelic that the body and mind most easily deals with. most drugs you take and feel good during, and bad afterwards.. ayahuasca you can feel bad during, and very good afterwards, no common ´hangover´.. It could very well be because the chemicals in ayahuasca are already part of the normal metabolism (in smaller amounts of course), so the body is prepared for dealing with it.

What IS important if such a long lasting constant ritual sort of work is done, is that there is good integration work following all sessions.. Good shamans will do this. Unscrupulous shamans wont. This can make a huge difference, especially if the person already had some unsolved issues (recent break up), and even more if some weird admixture in ayahuasca such as datura/brugmansia plants were used

[Micklemouse]

Bettyjay, first of all you & your son have my sympathies - psychosis can be one of the hardest things to come to terms with, not only for the person living with it, but also for those closest to them, especially the parent/s. With this in mind, I hope you'll forgive me if I'm at times somewhat blunt here.

While I can understand your hesitancy to bring in "traditional" medical assistance Bettyjay, I do believe that it may be necessary - hospitalisation may not be necessary as there are people around to care for your son, but he needs assistance & soon; he is in pain & to not treat his symptoms could be seen as cruel, unintentionally so, but cruel nonetheless. It could also lessen his chances of a full recovery - early intervention has been shown many times to heighten recovery (http://pb.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/25/4/146, http://www.rethink.org/about_mental_...ion/index.html ) Think of it this way - if he had broken his leg, would you leave it to set on it's own just because it happened on an Ayahuasca trip? I'm guessing (hoping!) the answer is no! Then why leave the mind to set on it's own after it has broken? If it were any other drug than Ayahuasca causing the psychosis, would there be any question about seeking medical assistance? This is not just a question of waiting for a reintegration - the combination of repeated tripping in an unfamiliar setting with an ex of just 3 days after a long journey has broken your son's head. He is psychotic, & psychosis is a medical condition which in today's society requires medical treatment in order for your son to function & recover.

Most drug-induced psychoses resolve relatively quickly when the causing drug is removed from the equation - sometimes without the need for medical intervention, but often a course of antipsychotics is necessary. After 10 days I'm thinking maybe the latter option, while not palatable, is becoming a bit more likely. Not treating it could heighten the chances of your son being left with long standing & recurring problems that will need addressing at some point - & I'd be very surprised if any Ayahuasca ceremony would touch a psychotic individual, so "going back in" shouldn't really be considered; I repeat, this is not just a case of "not being fully re-integrated ", it is a full blown psychotic episode!. You need to be honest - with your Self & with your son; not doing so will lead to further problems with trust later on. If he is not getting better he will be aware of it, & if the point does come where a Doctor becomes involved, he needs to know that this is going to happen from the outset. Do not give him anything he does not want, even if ti is only vitamins that may aid his recovery - this will only serve to intensify his paranoia

To be honest, I'm surprised nobody thought that your son's going ahead with the ceremony in the first place might be a bad idea in light of his recent life events. The first rule of any trip is Set & Setting. While I'm sure the Setting was beautiful, i can guarantee that 3 days after being dumped, in an unfamiliar environment, sitting next to one's ex is not going to contribute to a good mind-set at all, & strikes me as something of a recipe for disaster, never mind the culture shock on returning to find that the problems & hurt are still there. Did the people running the ceremony know his situation? If they did, then they need shutting down

Knowing what the constituents of the teas were is irrelevant at this point - there is no direct antidote, so while it would be interesting from an academic point of view, it would be useless from a dealing with the situation as it stands point of view I'm afraid. As Drainlife points out, a 10 day trip (even if tea was not drunk every day, there is no chance for the drinker to fully come down) is gonna take it's toll, & yes, DMT/MAOI mixes can indeed leave a person in this state Frond, as can any psychedelic, especially given the poor Set & Setting & consistent taking outlined above.

Please get your son the help he needs, & then perhaps think about finding the people who organised this trip & asking them some serious questions about scruples, ethics & the advisability of cross-cultural ceremonies involving large doses of psychedelic materials after the break-up of a long term relationship!

Reputation Comments on this post:

	You are an extremely wise man
	Excellent post

[Frond]

I'd say that it should be the responsibility of the participant to make sure that they're in the right mental state for this sort of thing, rather than the organizer. The main ethical issue at hand here is if the organizers misrepresented another substance as traditional Ayahuasca, and served up Datura tea, or something similar. Then, there is certainly cause to ask some hard questions, and perhaps take some hard actions.

[Micklemouse]

I agree that there is certainly a responsibility on the part of the participant also. However, discussion about the ethics involved is not going to help Bettyjay at this point (yes, I know I bought it up! Sorry!), neither is speculation about what went into the brew.

[bettyjay]

I sent in a new quick reply about an hour ago detailing the update on my son. I have been with him for 2 weeks and haven't had access to a computer. How long to the updates take to post? If I didn't do it sucessfully (click on post quick replpy) I will repost the information. Thanks.
Bettyjay

[Micklemouse]

Looks like it didn't work Bettyjay, please repost!

[bettyjay]

I just returned from Santa Barbara after spending two weeks with my son. I wasn't need a computer and so haven't posted since I left.

First of all, thank you to everyone who has given me advice and insights. I appreciate each of them. Here's the update:

When he was in Peru doing the dieta (ceremony) he was taking Ayahuasca every other night for 10 days. I found out in SB that he was also drinking chiric sanango twice a day. It's a very potent hallucinogenic drug and probably is what has caused his problems.
He did take Ayahuasca three previous times (single night) in SB with no after effects. The day after finishing the ceremony he was fine – active and himself. The next day (Sept 18) he started acting strangely and it continued after he returned to the states. I went to Santa Barbara four days after he returned (Sunday, Sept 28). He was in the care of his brother, cousin and friend. During this time he was very much out of it- paranoid, thought he was still in Peru, had been cloned, and other fantasies. I took him to a recommended doctor on Monday, but he wasn't very helpful. Tuesday evening I took him to ER where they gave him some anti psychotic drugs and sent him home. We saw the attending psychiatrist the new day and he gave him more meds. The boys needed to get back to work, so we took him to my brother's house in Southern Cal. It is on a couple of acres of land and has a separate casita. We also enrolled him in the county mental health program because he has no insurance. They have provided him with anti anxiety, anti psychotic and sleeping meds. Even with all of these, he only slept for a few hours at a time. He is now sleeping about 8 hours per night. When the med level is sufficient, he is very much like himself. However, if his level gets low, he goes into a paranoid, psychotic state. He has become very obsessive/compulsive even when things are good – laying things out in rows, repacking clothes over and over etc. He originally had short term memory loss which has improved, but he still has no sense of time and a very short attention span. We have been working with Dr. Grob of UCLA who has done a lot of work with Ayahuasca in the past. We are hoping to get him an appointment with a psychiatrist in Santa Barbara that Dr. Grob recommends. He has stabilized somewhat with the meds and doesn't have to be watched 24/7. He is however watched from a distance and is staying in places that are somewhat isolated from the outside world. We have people giving him meds as he can't be trusted to take them on his own right now. It's been almost 4 weeks and I had hoped he would be much more grounded by now. It's very hard to see him in his confused state of mind.

Again, thank you all for your suggestions and kind thoughts – I will be following up on them. We will see him this coming weekend in SB (he wanted to see friends and he is being lovingly cared for by them in SB) and reassess him and what direction we will be going.

Bettyjay

[Synesthesiac]

Originally Posted by bettyjay

We have been working with Dr. Grob of UCLA who has done a lot of work with Ayahuasca in the past. We are hoping to get him an appointment with a psychiatrist in Santa Barbara that Dr. Grob recommends.

Thats good you've got someone familiar with ayahuasca use involved, Dr Grob would have been another I would have recommended. You wont get much better than him. I know that he's very experienced in the area of mdma theray and treating anxiety with this (before it was banned [still doesn't stop it happening frequently on the sly though]), but i'm sure he has plenty of knowledge of dmt/ahahuasca too like you said.

And my advise would be to keep normalising him in his environment to make him feel like his life is back to how it was before. Try to do things that he may have done before, any hobby, or activity he enjoys doing. Keep telling him he's better than he was and what he has to look forward to in the future. Hope he gets better, he's in good care with Dr Grob advising you.