Tolerance - Opioids No Longer Producing Euphoria (Mental Tolerance?)

[fiveleggedrat]

So.

Swim has been using opioids for the past 1 1/2 year. Up until recently, they have always been wonderful. Disclaimer: There is ZERO physical tolerance here. There is ZERO addiction here. Usage is rare.

About 3 months ago, tramadol stopped producing effects. Swim had just got back from a 2 month break from it. It still sedated Swim, but nothing mental happened. It used to produce god like amounts of euphoria, good mood, and nodding. Swim attempted to get it working over 10 times with various inhibitors and potentiators. Nothing ever happened. Avg dose was 300mg.

Around the same time, what was supposed to be a 100mg bag of Heroin was purchased. Swim snorted the whole thing, with only mild effects. (Yes, I'm aware cutting could have occured here, but adding it for the sake of fleshing this out)

About a month ago, a 40mg hydrocodone dose was taken. Usually, 20mg is enough to turn Swim into having a great mood. Sadly though, the 40mg he took came on quickly, gave very little effects, and was over quickly as well.

Last night, Swim took 6mg hydromorphone. 4mg rectal and 2mg intranasal. Usually, only 4mg intranasal is enough to get him in a great spot. The entire 6mg felt like it was no more than 2mg, with no mental effects, just crazy sedation.

What is going on? Where is the euphoria? Did my mu receptor break or somethin'?! Haha, not serious there, but seriously, what could possibly be happening?

Euphoria and the content/postive feeling are gone every time Swim uses. Swim uses not more than once a week, usually once a month now.

Is Swim getting some type of crazy mental tolerance? Swim has never heard of people losing effects from opioids without first getting addicted or using every day. Swim has made sure to do EVERYTHING in his power to keep tolerance down. Now Swim is starting to regret not using more often in the past, since he's getting no effects from things anymore. And opioids are Swim's absolute favorite, so this is upsetting. Swim respected Opioids, and now they decide to hate him.

Any theories/ideas/suggestions/anything?

Edit: Just adding for the sake of adding, Swim is a pretty big pot smoker, Smoking every 1-2 days. Swim does not use any other substances at this time except benzos infrequently.

[Zendo]

Swim indeed does not want to catch swiys disease,
Swim needs 3 days off gear to feel as swim has 0 tolerance again

This is actually such a Rare disease i would suggest DR House himself figure out why your mu receptors are not as re-active as they should be o__o

Swim has the exact same thing with tramadol, swim use to love them, but now feels nothing from taking the max amount, as for the others, they all still work wonderfully for me =/

An old wifes tale in swims country is if you take a hit of methampetimines it strips any opiate tolerance, swim has never tried this, only heard it over and over from certain peeps who swear by it.

swim has gotta say he is sorry to hear of whats happening for you

[fiveleggedrat]

It really is odd. Swim's been thinking about moving to the needle lately to try and fix the issue, but that would bring way too many problems. Swim is thinking lately that the blood brain barrier's solubility has changed, possibly due to diet. Swim's gonna try to figure out how to test some theories regarding this.

Swim did an experiment tonight with tramadol and quercetin. Quercetin is a CYP2D6 inhibitor and a CYP3A4 inducer, which theoretically should have increased the amount of m1, the most active metabolite of tramadol, which is a pro-drug. m1 has high affinity for mu receptor, which = euphoria

Bahhh. Swim hates his stupid mental tolerance.

[Probing Tranquility]

yes, swim has had the problem of not being able to get high off of opiates even after physical tolerance is gone. Swim will be out of shit for 3 to 4 days then he'll find some vicodin or percs but he'll have to take 8 to 12 of them just to get a good buzz. Swim wishes there was stronger stuff around.

[fiveleggedrat]

Yeah, mental tolerance has become problematic, and Swim's natural tolerance has permanently gone up to a ridiculous level it seems. And what's really funny is that for Swim, the body effects have gone up, esp. the CNS sedation. Swim is pretty much suffocating on opioids and still getting no euphoria. Used to be the other way around.

[Zendo]

Swim thinks that using the needle will be a clear indicator if its a mental or metabolism problem,

Even tho swim is pro i.v he does not like to encourage it,

Swiy has so much knowldge of biology, Swim just researched Quercetin on google and thanks swiy for that little gem of knowledge.

but did it work for Swiy?

Reputation Comments on this post:

Thank you for contributing.

[fiveleggedrat]

Usually, it decreases mental effects and add CNS sedation. Have not had a successful experiment with it for a long time. They sell it as herbal stores.

Yeah, Swim has no issues with needle users, but Swim personally has always stayed away from the needle. It was a big jump that once Swim took, there was no going back. He knows he would start IV'ing everything he could just for different effects. The farthest Swim will go is rectal, but Swim prefers regular old oral. Never had a good, working time smoking but sure it would be good stuff too. And intranasal is ok as long as substance is not disgusting.

Cimetidine is good for increasing the amount of a drug in one's body and prolonging effects. Swim has yet to experiment with this one, but has faith in it.

[Matt The Funk]

SWIM can't get that same high he use to from opiates...even after long tolerance breaks, and ending addiction. Not even tar or fent can bring it back full to what it use to be.

[fiveleggedrat]

Swim is afraid of that happening, or that it might have already happened. Swim will likely be getting some heroin to smoke soon and try to assess Swim's current tolerance. It the H does not produce euphoria, Swim might have to give up on opioids. Opioids are Swim's love, and to stop using them would be very upsetting to Swim. He can't stand stimulants, and psychedelics scare him. Opioids provided a enjoyable, peaceful drug that Swim could be and act normally on. It fits very well into normal daily life as well for Swim.

Does anyone have any theories as to why this happened? Swim wants to find the physical cause of this, and try to find a way to reverse it, however possible.

[Matt The Funk]

Originally Posted by fiveleggedrat

Does anyone have any theories as to why this happened? Swim wants to find the physical cause of this, and try to find a way to reverse it, however possible.

This may sound like a stupid theory, but SWIM use to be addicted to and popped a lot of downers, opiates included, and after he semi-got off them (mostly benzo's + alc) even after 1-2 months not using either he still would get VERY VERY minimal euphoric effects, along with some of the other nice effects. Now SWIM doesn't think it was tolerance since he still felt the anxiety relief to full extent. He thinks it has something to do with the receptors in the brain just being over-used for too long and they simply need time to heal. SWIM thinks take however long SWIY was using, then take a break double that length....but he really has no idea. Just trying to give some input.

Originally Posted by reco1977

Similar experience is happening to my cat Zippy, she started taking codeine three months ago and loves it now. just recently the effects were minimal on her so she took about a week off and tried again with a much smaller dose than usual, she did notice that she was a lot more relaxed than before but no where near what she used to feel. she is now thinking about taking a month break from it hoping that the tolerance goes right down.

SWIY just needs a tolerance break. Which might actually be what all the people in this thread need lol.

[reco1977]

Did swiy ever get to the bottom of this?

[fiveleggedrat]

It's really a recent problem, so no.

Swim did another experiment with tramadol, which failed to produce more than slight insomnia and very slight CNS sedation. Just slower than normal breathing

Swim is gonna get something strong soon and give it a go.

[Zendo]

Swim hopes that Swiy gets something so yummy it knocks swims socks off

If some nice H doesnt mess Swiy up, than woah.... im not sure swim can comprehend such a tolerance and swim think's you should be medicaly studied so it can be fixed asap.!!

[reco1977]

Similar experience is happening to my cat Zippy, she started taking codeine three months ago and loves it now. just recently the effects were minimal on her so she took about a week off and tried again with a much smaller dose than usual, she did notice that she was a lot more relaxed than before but no where near what she used to feel. she is now thinking about taking a month break from it hoping that the tolerance goes right down.

[fiveleggedrat]

I've been perusing quite a few papers from the lovely archive here lately as well as some others from various online sources. Suffice to say, things have only gotten more complicated. Swim has about 10 completely different theories regarding what happened to him imparticular.

Matt The Funk, Swim has taken several month breaks with the same result: no effects. I'm sure that most people here have a physical tolerance or something and really do need to take a break, but really, 3+ months abstaining from all opioids, and Swim gets nothing the day he came back? Makes no sense. Back when Swim used more often, he would use sometimes 2, 3 times a week with no effect whatsoever on tolerance. Obviously, he did not keep usage that frequent.

Swim's likely going to purchase some kratom some to see how that works out. Swim theorizes that it will have at least some positive effects because it'll mostly be working on different opioid receptors, and Swim has very little usage of kratom and it's alkaloids.

[Matt The Funk]

SWIM has 2 months clean (last time was a tar binge) and is going to tomorrow see if he can find that euphoria. He plans to potentiate with grapefruit juice and tums and take only 35mg. SWIM will also look into kratom...he misses the opiate high and quit because of addction problems/losing the euphoria. Let this thread know how the Kratom works.

[fiveleggedrat]

Swim has obtained a steady supply of hydromorphone, at least for a short time. Now, Swim knows needle would tell right away whats up, but Swim is VERY anti needle, at least for himself. I have no issues with needle usage, it's just a personal choice for Swim. Swim's studying alternative methods of using this stuff, outside the usual snort/oral. If Swim can't find one new, he'll snort it.

Swim got 10mg today. 4mg used to knock his socks off. I can't see the need for above 6-8mg, even with a mental tolerance.

Swim will kill at least 6mg, and if needed, 10mg intranasal, and report back with a detailed (if possible) report of the effects, his current tolerance profile, and if things worked out or not.

Swim theorizes kratom would work pretty good for him it is primarily a delta receptor agonist, and not a mu like most opioids.

fiveleggedrat added 515 Minutes and 21 Seconds later...

Got an update for you guys. Swim obtained 10mg hydromorphone today, an old fav. Swim USED to dose to 4mg and be completely set and euphoric.

Swim cleaned his nose, and snorted 2mg at a time over an hour until he reached 10mg total. He rinsed and cleaned out his nose after every snort. It was also divided between the nostrils evenly. Did everything possible to help this out! The pills were Malidrockt and ground down to a fine powder. No opioids for a while. Last time was 2 or 3 weeks ago at least with 40mg hydrocodone.

Well, overall, Swim did not get much. 4mg used to do so much! The 10 made him nice and sedated, with a good mood and plenty social. The problem is, there was LITTLE if ANY actual euphoria. What the fuck? Apparently Swim no longer gets euphoria. And surprisingly, Swim's CNS was not depressed much as well. He nodded a little and could not walk easily, and it was hard to focus, but his breathing did not slow down much as it usually does, and was not shallow. It's usually pretty shallow.

Unless Swim decides on another method of admin, Swim will use at least 12 all the way up to possibly 14, maybe 16mg, intranasal. Swim will keep dosing until A) he does not feel safe, too much sedation or B) Euphoria! Swim will do this with a friend too, to be safe. Swim's taught her how to respond to overdoses of all drugs he does.

I'll type up a full report later

[Matt The Funk]

Originally Posted by fiveleggedrat

The 10 made him nice and sedated, with a good mood and plenty social. The problem is, there was LITTLE if ANY actual euphoria. What the fuck? Apparently Swim no longer gets euphoria. And surprisingly, Swim's CNS was not depressed much as well. He nodded a little and could not walk easily, and it was hard to focus, but his breathing did not slow down much as it usually does, and was not shallow. It's usually pretty shallow.

Unless Swim decides on another method of admin, Swim will use at least 12 all the way up to possibly 14, maybe 16mg, intranasal. Swim will keep dosing until A) he does not feel safe, too much sedation or B) Euphoria! Swim will do this with a friend too, to be safe. Swim's taught her how to respond to overdoses of all drugs he does.

I'll type up a full report later

SWIM decided to dose tonight. He took only 35mg of hydrocodone potentiated with tums, grapefruit juice, 25mg of benadryl (diphenhydramine) and 1mg of klonopin (clonazepam). SWIM consumed the hydrocodone at 5:00pm and is still feeling some itch + body buzz at 11:30pm, which is longer than normal for him. He also took it all on an empty stomach, and took the clonazepam and hydrocodone at the same time. He had a slight nod going on and VERY VERY minimal euphoria, possibly not from the substances, he was a little dis-coordinated but nothing noticeable. He did get itchy, which hasn't happened for a while, and his body was feeling some of the analgesic effects. This dose in general is low for SWIM, but he did not want to over shoot, since he potentiated so much, and hadn't touched an opiate for 2 months. Overall he would say the euphoria is still gone, but his tolerance did go down drastically. He has always found hydrocodone the most euphoric of all opiates and is sad that he did not receive the same warm bliss, but he will try again with a higher dose in a few months. The most positive effect for SWIM was that it got rid of his nasty cough from all the cigarettes and cannabis.

[fiveleggedrat]

That post sounds EXACTLY like Swim's last good hydrocodone experience of 100mg. What Swiy describes sounds very similar to what is going on with Swim.

[allyourbase]

physical tolerance more likely.........before swim started a regular health maintenance regimend (ie working out on the regular) it took swim 20 mg of hydrocodone for threshhold effects, now it takes around 40 mg. there are a number of reasons for this but the one in particular SWIM brings up is a built up tolerance to bound endorphins. part of the increase dose comes from increased mass, but another large part of it has to do with the fact that SWIM's body gets some measure of endorphins released naturally every day though SWIM's daily activities. i.e. a natural tolerance to the drugs method of action may occur without exposure to the actual drug in question.

[Matt The Funk]

Originally Posted by allyourbase

physical tolerance more likely.........before swim started a regular health maintenance regimend (ie working out on the regular) it took swim 20 mg of hydrocodone for threshhold effects, now it takes around 40 mg. there are a number of reasons for this but the one in particular SWIM brings up is a built up tolerance to bound endorphins. part of the increase dose comes from increased mass, but another large part of it has to do with the fact that SWIM's body gets some measure of endorphins released naturally every day though SWIM's daily activities. i.e. a natural tolerance to the drugs method of action may occur without exposure to the actual drug in question.

SWIM supposes this is possible since he does a lot of biking and exercise. Also SWIMs tolerance should be that of a virgin since he took a 2 month break, and during those last few months before, he was trying to get off opiates and did by slowly lowering/ cold turkey, but benzo's replaced them completely.But other substances still cause SWIM euphoria...although not exactly the same as the opiate euphoria. SWIM took a dose much lower than what he use to take (150mg+ then stopped using hydro, then moved up to fentanyl where he got to the point where he could use up to a patch in a day) so he doesn't know if it's possible that he would STILL have that much tolerance. But like I said, SWIM still feels the PHYSICAL effects.

SWIM is also considering mixing 2 different opiates next time... to see if that would enhance and enable euphoria.

[fiveleggedrat]

This thread was more aimed towards exploring tolerance issues that are still present after taking at least several months away from any type of stimulation, and this is not related to tolerance from frequent use but tolerance from infrequent use and still having significant dosing increases.

Swim would do 4mg hydromorphone intranasal when he used weekly. Now Swim took 3 months off and now uses monthly and uses 12+ hydromorphone intranasal. Why? Infrequent use and dose going up more than 3x? Trying to explore this.

[chillinwill]

in NA or AA meetings, SWIM has always heard of once an addict gets clean, and then resumes using, the tolerance is at the same point as if the user kept using the whole time....not sure if this relates to SWIY but just throwing that out there

[fiveleggedrat]

So I mentioned this in another thread, but after much reading, I believe the answer to mental tolerance is a naltrexone regiment after being sober for a time.

I will continue to research this. I have found no real information regarding it either.

If my thinking so far is correct, the naltrexone would reverse downregulation of opioid receptors, creating a sensitivity to opioids that would persist after the naltrexone is gone for at least a period of a few weeks, to perhaps a few months, if not longer.

Swim will procure naltrexone will all due haste and start what will probably be a 2 week regiment.

[Psych0naut]

SWIM has been using IV Heroin for several months now, at escalating dosages, and is at a point of shooting a fifth to quarter gram of pure Heroin, several times a day. When he began using IV Heroin, he would still become incredibly euphoric, but over time, it has lessened and lessened. SWIM barely feel any euphoria at all when he shoots a big dose nowadays. Even after quitting for two weeks completely, it didn't change even a tiny bit ...