Psilocin mushrooms as an snri/ssri withdrawal control/possible replacement?

[salviablue]

I will try to document here what SWIM experienced and "experimented" with low dose psilocin containing mushrooms used to come off/ use instead of snri`s/ssri`s.

On one of swim`s excursions to Amsterdam, s/he forgot to pack hir meds (doh!). SWIM was on 75mg/day (I think) effexor at the time, an SNRI used to treat depression and anxiety - in this case anxiety. On discontinuation of the effexor, after a couple of days, a kind of cerebral electric shock/brain jar thing used to kick in (like one can feel the sledgehammer of the effexor shattering the synapses, hereforthwith to be called the synaptic sledghammer syndrome - sss) upon stimulation (like sound, touch, moving the head or the eyes, etc).
The sss kicked day 2, by the end of day 3 it was excruciating. The next morning swim bought some mushies, P.Cubensis, and proceeded to consume them once back in the hotel. This wasnt just done on a whim, swim had remembered reading about how the seretonergic systems works, how the effexor effected the seretonergic system and how mushies mimic seretonin. This thinking may be flawed as swims understanding isnt complete (nor is the documentation really).
About 15 -20 mins after consuming the mushrooms swim began to feel the sss dissipate and the mushies working their magick. The trip had a somewhat altered feeling to it, unknowing if this was due to fresh P.Cubensis (only had lib caps <loads of>, mexicana and cyanescens before) or the effexor in the system (or its effects), or lack of.

SWIM`s sss only returned a couple days later, as though the mushy dose was effexor. There is also a "fuzzy head" feeling that accompanies sss and this too was allieviated by the mushy dose, only to return with the sss. SWIM tried a smaller dose of mushies (same `brand`) but only a quarter of the small box (about 4 mushies in the box I seem to remember swim saying) and found that again the sss start to dissipate within around 20 min. SWIM still tripped, albeit just slightly, just enough to shed an interesting outlook.

This left swim to wonder whether lower doses would have the same effect of relieving the sss and thus possibly the withdrawal from effexor, leading to its possible discontinuation or replacement.

Over the course of the next mushy season, swim tried low doses of mushrooms instead of effexor and although the results varied, came to the conclusion that it certainly has the possibility as a replacement.
SWIM tried a few mushrooms (5-6 P.Semilanceata) to start with and didnt have any more until the sss started (2 days later). SWIM tried a couple less shrooms next but felt more of a trippy effect than the first time and again the sss subsided. SWIM then took about 3 every other day until the beginning of the following week when the head fuzz continued after the last dose and swim felt that a dose of regular meds was inorder. After a 75mg tab of effexor the head fuzz and sss disappeared and things were back to `relative normality`.
SWIM continued this for around 11 weeks, until the `supply` ran out, varying the dose amount and frequency roughly weekly. They varied from 2 mushies roughly every 6 hours to 5 - 6 every 2 days.
2 - 3 everyday seemed to work best but all combinations of amount/frequency felt a gradual `fuzzy head` feeling build towards the end of the week(ish), until the next effexor was administered - which was reduced to 37.5mg (1/2 tab) a time.
At times there was anxiety felt, more than when on soley effexor, but swim doesnt remember well enough to be able to marry up dose and effect. Other than that, they seemed to be working similarly, although swims generally felt a little more `wired` than on just effexor, although that was what was felt for a while when starting effexor.

There was a break of about 5 days between last dose of mushies and effexor about week 7. During this time the sss was still felt but didnt really onset until then end of day 3 (think?) and remained mostly manageable until the next effexor.

I was trying to type more details but deleted because I think I am starting fill in memory gaps with conjecture and I do not wish to colour SWIM`s account of hir experience.

I think this has a credable potential (low dose psilocin as an antidepressant/anxiolytic) to warrant a proper scientific investigation under controlled circumstances (this activity would obviously have to be carried out somewhere it is legal to do so and I would not in any way endorse said activities where it may be illegal).

Remember also that SWIM nor I are doctors of any kind and I am aware of the flaws in this `experiment`. It is not presented as a scientific report but just as a documentation of something that may or may not have happened.

The reduction of effectiveness of sss control maybe have been due to a tolerance build to the mushies, the withdrawal effect becoming `so bad` as to be unquenchable by low dose mushies, or probably many other factors.

Wondering how a weak MAOI (RIMA) `thrown into the mix` would effect things, will have to research and dig the old books out again. Infact I should do that any way and see what I can dig up that may be relavent. Maybe come up with an experiment plan?

[Panthers007]

Considering that withdrawl from SSRI's often causes depression and suicidal thoughts to spring up in vulnerable people, I rather doubt psychedelics are a very good idea. May well works well for some people, but I wouldn't trust a doctor who would prescribe SSRI's in the first place to monket around with, say, psilocin.

As for underground usage - I suggest this be approached with great caution.

[Felix Guattari]

I'm not so sure the same could be said of sub-or-threshold psychedelic doses, at least if done with some caution.

If the apparent ability of psilocin to halt SSRI withdrawal is due to its affinity for 5HT 2A 2C and 1A, might there be other substances that would do the same? Buspirone hits at least some of those if I'm not mistaken.

SWiM has some amount of experience with mushrooms and depression; he noted a very significant decrease in depressive symptoms for a week after a 5.25 gram trip.
Subsequent lower dose trips have had similar effects, but the positive effects haven't lasted quite as long. This and other second-hand experiences with high-dose psychedelics and disassociatives seem to support the notion that they have a sort of 'chemical ECT' effect.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good constructive thinking, thankyou for the input

[salviablue]

--Bump--
Has anyone else experienced anything similar?

[lh4787]

swim is glad swim found this post because swim is going through a similar situation. swim have been taking Citalopram, an SSRI for three years with a small gap in between. However, swim have been experimenting with mushrooms for a much longer time.swim started on 10mg for a week then they moved up to 20mg. After a couple weeks swim's dose got raised to 30mg. When swim first started getting into the rythm of feeling the antideppressant working (after about a 2 and a half months) swim noticed swim felt a lot better and decided to stop taking the medication. swim felt wonderful for about three months. During these three months swim experimented with lsd and mushrooms. swim didn't notice any side effects and swim remember just feeling really good. Then all of the sudden,swim came crashing down with depression and sadness. In a way swim could never had experienced before. swim have had Borderline Personality Disorder, but swim had never considered myself a depressed and sad person. This all changed. swim was panicking because at this point swim had lost swim's medication. Needless to say when swim finally got back on it, the same dosage 30mg after 3 months swim started to feel better again. That was back in 2006. Now it is three years later and swim is still on SSRI's. Looking back, during swim's medication gap, swim felt effects of witdrawl. However, as previously mentioned, the depression came like a wave and it was brutal. swim could not even think of why swim felt so sad and awful.

Recently swim have had another weird reaction/ interaction with the previously mentioned drugs. Like swim said swim have been taking 30mg of Celexa/ Citalopram for three years. swim have skipped a week or a couple days here and there but nothing longer than that. Exactly 7 days ago swim again traveled without medication and had not taken it since then. swim tripped on a handful of mushrooms a couple days later. swim woke up to the most awful headache swim have ever had. swim's brain was pulsating in pain it was awful. swim literally cried it was so bad.

Luckily it wore off. swim was still out of town, so swim still did not take swim's meds. for the next 5 days swim felt fine besides slight dizziness amd loss of coordination. However, swim returned home and when swim took swim's medication again something was not right. swim got another painfully awful headache that was not isolated in any particular area. It felt as though it was all over swim's head. swim was sweating and swim feld like swim had the flu. swim also was getting really bad muscle aches and random jerks that were sometimes uncontrollable. swim was so anxious and did not sleep although swim hadn't slept in 18 hours. swim felt horrendous. The only thing swim can compare the muscle tension and spasms to is going through opiate withdrawl except it feels more like a chemical itch. swim doesn't really like remembering how opiate withdrawl felt like. The pain when swim took swim's meds again and layed in bed becuase swim felt so woozy, swim's mental state was somewhat altered and swim felt very agitated. swim is afraid swim experienced mild symptoms of serotonin syndrome. swim guesses it can happen when one takes large amounts of serotonin affecting drugs in combination with SSRI's. Now swim need to visit a doctor to find out what is going on. swim's pharmacist told swim that swim should stop taking the citalopram for right now since it is hurting so uncomfortably. SWIM ----> swim think one might have been playing russian roullete with the brain's receptors becuase if one would have been on an SSRI as opposed to a SNRI one could have also experienced Serotonin syndrome simply becuase one was repeatedley taking mushrooms with the medication. swim does not know anything about effexor (venlafaxine) and whether or not there have been reports of Seratonin Syndrome. swim hopes swim's experience helps!

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Thankyou very informative - do not self incriminate though, read the rules please
	nice, detailed yet concise report; please refrain from self-incrimination. it takes a lot of work to fix.

[salviablue]

lh4787 - thankyou for quoting your imaginary friends/swiy experience. Please re read the rules, especially on self incrimination, just to make it clear about who's or what's experience you are reporting upon/for.

There are a few points however that I think require a bit more clarity here.

I started on 10mg for a week then they moved me up to 20mg. After a couple weeks my dose got raised to 30mg.

I take it you are referring to swiys citalopram and not mushroom intake.

Was swiy experimenting with mushrooms whilst on the ssri?

Did swiy feel the anxiety/depression before experimenting with mushrooms?

When did swiy get diagnosed with "borderline personality disorder" in relation to intake of drugs time line (both perscription and self experimented)?

Here you mention

I noticed I felt a lot better and decided to stop taking the medication. I felt wonderful for about three months. During these three months I experimented with lsd and mushrooms

and here you state

Looking back, during my medication gap, I did not experience many physical aspects of withdrawl symptoms. I was also heavily using lsd and mdma at the time.

these two statements seem to contradict each other, or at least confuse me.
Do you think you could ask swim to clarify? When did mdma come into it?

I tripped on a handful of mushrooms a couple days later

I am not intending to be condescending by asking how swim was sure these where the mushrooms s/he though they where.

I woke up to the most awful headache I have ever had. My brain was pulsating in pain it was awful. I literally cried it was so bad. Luckily it wore off. I was still out of town, so I still did not take my meds. for the next 5 days I felt fine besides slight dizziness amd loss of coordination. However, I returned home and when I took my medication again something was not right. I got another painfully awful headache that was not isolated in any particular area. It felt as though it was all over my head. I was sweating and I feld like I had the flu. I also was getting really bad muscle aches and random jerks that were sometimes uncontrollable

These effects do not sound too dissimilar to sss. These are what most people feel from sudden withdrawal from snri/ssri meds, mainly after a few continuous months. For swim, s/he never ran out for long enough/missed enough days to experience the sss for at least around 4 months from the start of the script. Effexor has a fairly short half life, so the sss effects are usually felt after only 36 hrs or so after missing a dose. Swim never actually felt pain-pain from sss, just that the sss symptoms eventually became unbearable.

In swims experience, the psilocin prevented the sss from occurring, but not for long.

Hind sight is a bitch (and would be useless if one wears lower body clothes/coverings) but tell swim s/he is a numpty for not securing knowledge re lsd/mushrooms/mdma in combination with mental disorders and/or snri/ssri use!! Apologise for me if s/he did.

Although it has not been mentioned here by swim before, I felt it best to leave it out due to swims uncertainty. Swim told me s/he thinks that s/he managed to stave off the sss through psilocin mushroom use since changing meds from effexor to citalopram, an snri to an ssri. S/he isn't sure because s/he can't precisly remember when the change in meds occurred and when hir last times with psilocin where, in relation to each other.

BTW, Swim has totally come off the citalopram by gradually reducing the frequency and quantity of dose over 2-4 months. The frequency and severity of the sss attacks gradually lessened. The "official" method of independency would have taken much longer.

In the experience of swim, some swimmers s/he knows and others read about, snri/ssri scripts/dependency lasts, on average, at least around 3-4 years. Its only where the "patient" specifically requests to come off them, or there is a serious debilitating/dangerous side-effect the doctor will discontinue them (albeit, prescribe something else instead, usually going for an even more sledgehammer/blanket approach a la benzo`s etc.)