Why do you think drugs are illegal?

[KomodoMK]

I read this the other day... (can't remember the author or find the post, sorry).

The West could care less about a death from an RC, alcohol, or Tylonol.

The problem isn't that you are human #140,761,020 and that means nothing to you or a governing body. The problem lies in you taking something and opening your eyes to the fact that you don't like being #140,761,020 who was a good Christian the day before you took said mind expanding compound. Now you have questions.. Questions about religion, Questions about your government. Therefore you need to be locked away.

Do you agree with this? What is your opinion?

Personally I do agree with that statement, and I do feel that those who are curious and willing to take the risk are a threat to the government in a multitude of ways. I don't buy into the whole 'they are looking out for society and our health' shit they propagate. If this was so then the drug reclassification (see image below) suggestion that was made 2 years ago, and was based on scientific fact rather than historical assumption, would have been passed and become law.



In my opinion the drugs should be categorized based on their effect on society, including pressures on the health service, associated crime and their harmfulness among other things. But this, as the chart shows, would put many of them, including class A's below that of products (Tobacco and Alcohol) that are easily available almost the world over.

It's a fairly well known fact that many prescription drugs have more adverse reactions and fatalities than some scheduled drugs so the harmfulness of a particular drug is obviously not the only concern of the government.

Let's use Ecstasy (MDMA) as an example:

* Not physically addictive.
* Possible mental addiction, but short lived as many people report no effects (serotonin depletion) after constant use. Most reports say around 4 days.
* No real harm to society, unless you class loving everyone and everything as harmful.
* Very low associated crime rate.
* Only around 2 in every 100,000 people have adverse reaction, far less than some prescription and/or legal drugs.
* Mostly all hospital visits are due to dehydration, or water intoxication, the latter most likely being the result of media scare tactics resulting in users drinking excess water to avoid the former.

The therapeutic effects of MDMA are also fairly well known, it is more successful and useful than any current anti-depressants and has been known to cure some really traumatic personality problems amongst anxiety and depression when all other methods have failed.

So you have to ask why this is a Class A drug? It just doesn't make sense. Could it be that because this drug is so mind expanding that it becomes a threat?

It would be easy to go on forever, so let's get some more opinions from you guys!

[Spare Chaynge]

What about drugs that cause less questions than before.. Heroin and cocaine. Totally illegal but they cause people not to questions things and just except the way things are. Most people strung out on heroin are not going to go out and vote to repeal drug laws. They are going to try and lay low keep there job and continue using.
This is what happened to swim on these drugs.

What about psychedelics.. yes they can cause people to start questioning things when used in small amounts. But when used in large amounts people tend to resort to the same thing heroin addicts do.. Just lay low and keep on doing what they are doing.

Swim does not know enough to make any statements other than what he has seen.

Swim believe drugs were outlawed out of ignorance and racism. Then after this they discovered it allowed them to make a profit out of the law. They then discovered it allowed them to justify sticking there noses into states rights and other countries while making a profit.

It just seems that the laws against drugs benefit the government way to much and the people not at all.


That chart seems to be off... What if the same amount of people were all using the drugs above... for example 10 using mdma 10 using benzos 10 usings heroin.. how would the chart change?

Reputation Comments on this post:

I agree

[KomodoMK]

Drugs like Cocaine and Heroin have quite a big burden on society due to pressure on health services, crime association and their addictive (and sometimes harmful) nature. I would say that the graph I attached in quite accurate in it's order.

I think my point is that some of the drugs (like Ecstasy) in it's pure unadulterated form are far less harmful than Alcohol or Tobacco, so why isn't it legalized? A lot of money could still be made for the government that way.

[Spare Chaynge]

I hardly doubt that if 10 people were using mdma and 10 people were using marijuana that the 10 people using marijuana would cause more harm to society then the mdma users.. its kinda like comparing 3 to 4 .. its hard to do this. they are both numbers but they are so different when you use 3x4 a day you get 12 and when you use 4x4 times a day you get 16 .. big difference.

but anyways dont wont to get off thread topic so back to his main point

[KomodoMK]

The graph is based on a selection of variables not just harm on society. As mentioned before, associated crime and things like related hospital admissions are also factored in.

The whole (current) system and the reasoning behind it just doesn't make logical sense in any shape or form.

[Spare Chaynge]

ah I see. makes much more sense now.

[Wierd Logic]

Different drugs affect different people's lives differently.
Some people can handle certain drugs and not let it get damaging/harmful/addictive/destructive/etc, whilst others can't. In the ideal world, everyone would have rules suitable for them, so they could recreationally intoxicate themselves without any damaging effects. Unfortunately, this is obviously completely impractical in the real world, and so blanket bans on intoxicating substances is a good (NB: I didn't say best) way of preventing damage to people and society in general. If certain people think they can handle certain drugs and are willing to take the risk of legal prosecution, then they will go ahead and take drugs.
However, the idea of intoxicants like Alcohol being legal against the others is ridiculous. Logically, everything underneath alcohol on that graph (thanks for posting that - haven't seen it before) should be legal, or alcohol should be illegal. Unfortunately governments and people are far too stuck in the ways of old to change this sort of thing.

[Spare Chaynge]

I think the chart is based on the fact that only a small amounts of users use mdma compared to alcohol therefor alcohols mean is more destructive. Can you imagine if the same amount of people who drink took mdma.. Mdma would be pretty destructive if lots of people used it. There would be a small population of the users that could not handle it a would cause harm... Just like alcohol and small minority can not handle it and causes harm...

Swim is not saying that these blanket laws are the best way to help things out... Obviously they have created crime and purity issues... But total legalization is not the way either... The idea of creating a controlled mdma market, is a difficult one.

[Swimster]

Well, swim simply believes that the gov likes their control of the country. Using many different substances causes people to question the Gov and alot more. Swim certainly stopped believing everything as soon as he started to test.

[Panthers007]

The title asks a question. I'll give my answer, paying no attention to the chart:

Aside from all the peripheral reasons such as religion, medical, psychological...I'd say they are illegal because of the sadism and psychopathy of those placed in charge of such. Including politicians and law-enforcement. They don't want you to think of them as sadists - so they claim the druggies are harming people. And they don't want you to think they are dangerous nuts, so they claim the druggies are crazy and dangerous. In psychology this is called projection. They project outwards onto others that which is true about themselves (but often can't face/admit). If they didn't have jobs as "drug-warriors" - they'd find something else that allows them to harm as many people as possible.

That's my take.

Reputation Comments on this post:

interesting post, to the point.

[emoduckie]

In swims opinion, drugs are illegal simply because the govornment doesn't want them to be. The govornment is happy with empty people, living hollow and meaningless lives, as long as we follow their laws.

The way they see it, we don't need our freedom of consiousness expansion/alteration if our destiny is to go to school, get a job in order to get *their* currency and pay *their* taxes, including income tax, which is really honestly just life tax, obey *their* rules, and conform to *their* life philosophy.

If you think that they are controlling you a little too much, consider this, they believe they OWN you. And that's not a figure of speech, according to the gov, you are STATE PROPERTY. You were given a number and forced to become part of their world. If they want to send you out to Iraq, they will, if they decide to lock you up, institutionalize you, take your possetions, or even kill you, they will.

Freeing your mind, or stepping outside the box they made for you, in any way shape or form, such as free love (homosexuality, ages etc), consiousness expansion (drugs, alternative thoughts "insanity"), or any other form of freedom, is not part of their plan and will not be tolerated.

Its not that the gov seriously thinks they are doing us a favor by making our decisions for us, its just not part of the lifestyle they have planned out for us.

And you can't blame a dumbass president, or any judge for this oppression.
Right?

How is an old geezer in a robe going to opress a nation? Even if he calls himself a judge? Its not anyone's fault but our own that we let it get this bad, we let them do it to us.

People allow them to run every individual in mankind because the gov got inside their head after 12 years (of school) to life of jamming their messages into our minds every minute of every day. "One nation, under God, with liberty and justice for all." the message has been pounded into our skulls countless times... All for a lie. One nation? No. We are individuals with individual beliefs. I believe in God, but that doesn't mean the "nation" does. It may not seem like a big thing, but the bottom line is that its a lie, and a propaganda filled one at that. There are countless lies that we have come to believe as a result of a whole lot of brainwashing. One more is the the idea that because of the govornment, we have "freedom", and that freedom is a right you get from the gov. People are programmed to think we are free, but on a deeper level, we know we are only "free" to do what the govornment tells us. But most people don't think very deeply about things, they are too busy watching the O'riley factor and paying the govornment taxes so they can have more security and safer streets. Albert Eihnstien once said "He who is willing to sacrifice freedom for security deserves neither and looses both." and the bit about safer streets was one of Hitlers favorite lines.

Anyway, don't blame the govornment for controlling your right to partake in consiousness alteration by means or pharmaceuticals. Although it is believed to be one of the three main natural human drives, directly behind food and sex, you definitely don't need to, and swim absolutely is not telling you that you have to.

Its not like the govornment is on one side telling you that you MUST NOT do drugs, while swim is on the other side saying that you MUST do drugs. Rather, decide for yourself, you should not let others beliefs prevent you from having your own.

As to why the govornment doesn't let you do drugs, the answer is because you let them.

...peAce...

[KomodoMK]

Thank you all for your replies.

Emoduckie, you have just described pretty much the same opinion I have. Really good post, enjoyed reading it. I also don't think Panthers is too far from the truth!

I'm not necessarily saying drugs should be legalized, but one should not be punished for wishing to alter their own conciousness. So let's change the question!

Why do they punish us for using drugs for mind expansion and altering conciousness?

There are many drugs out there that get emergency scheduled because they have become popular with little to no known associated health risks - why is this?

Drugs can be used safely, and are by millions, but they (try) make us believe the opposite is true.

I am convinced the governments are scared the drugs will open the eyes of the users to what the country/world is really like. That enough people use them we will take a stand against them and ultimately they will lose some of their control over us.

I think it is clearly obvious there is more at play here than simple prohibition for our own protection.

[Swimster]

Swim believes that any hard working jerk hates the idea of altering conciousness. Seeing as how they strive too-hard to work with the "one" they currently have. Chnging "reality"(their own illusion) on them would upset and depress the hell out of them.

Change is great! But many loosers don't understand. Hell, this is how we figure things out, and invent new things. And better things.

Any genious knows this, The Gov. obviously dosn't qualify, thus, they dont know it.

There are many drugs out there that get emergency scheduled because they have become popular with little to no known associated health risks - why is this?

Well simple, "drugs are drugs" they don't know the possible negative effects, but it conflicts with them and 'change' bacause the drug scheduled apears similar in action to others.

[Anonbiologist]

Originally Posted by KomodoMK

I am convinced the governments are scared the drugs will open the eyes of the users to what the country/world is really like. That enough people use them we will take a stand against them and ultimately they will lose some of their control over us.

The government aren't frightened our eyes are going to open and see the mess, they're worried we'll all decide to kick back and enjoy our lives, become gypsies or something of the like, and decide to live under the radar (gypsies have no NI number [UK equivalent to US Social security number] and can go and do anything they pretty much want...) and not take part in the daily grind of working life.

Good Luck

[purplehaze]

The word society.

Drugs are illegal because they take away money from those in power. They open minds, provide enterainment, show that life doesn't have to have that brand new car or the big screen tv or the 700 dollar suit your wearing. Shows that everything in society is built up to be a prized possesion and fads come and go.

They destroy lifes and people who are uneducated about drugs see that the person started taking the drug and there life went downhill, then they blame the drug entirely.

The whole world is setup so the rich get richer and the poor stay poor. You don't work you don't eat, everybody knows that. But 90% of the people working jobs are doing something they hate, or never intended on doing. And then the job defines who they are. In the system, it gives them false pride and accomplishment that isn't worth anything. You have to contribute to the system if you want to succeed in life, and drugs point against that. Free will and open mind. Thats not somethign that society needs to move forward with technology and improving the future to be bigger and better than today.

IF you go against this it changes the whole world, nobody is better than anybody. But thats just something we believe now days, it isn't actually like that. Because if i get a speeding ticket and president bush gets a speeding ticket he can makea phone call and get his taken away, so can alot of other people. It's your rank, you have been defined as a special person meant to lead the heard.

Religion and brainwashing, building up false hope. Praying on drugs to be the problems of the world. How can you do drugs and contribute.

Inside drug trading, making money off illegal drugs resaling them or helping distribute them, if there legal then the power cannot sale the drugs on the black market.

Oil companys and world solutions, drugs can prove to help with enviroment, but the people in power don't own fields of pot, they own big oil companys and the like.

So many things, a complete changed world would have to take place for drugs to be absolutely legal. The smarter we think we are, the more we try to control the masses doing what we believe is right and how you should live your life, but most importantly you should live your life doing whatever you want to aslong as it doesn't harm anyone else.

[Stationary Traveller]

What kind of baffles me is that, at least in this thread, nearly everyone has taken the stance that:
- drugs do open your eyes
- government is so wicked they don't want your eyes open

I'm not a fan of governments (you could actually call me an anarchist) but right now we have them, and it seems a futile effort to try to get rid of them.

I think, the main reason they are illegal is because of their margin of abuse. I'm not saying it leads to it, or that its completely right to do so, but simply stating the point of view. Of course, you can say something like "but you can abuse anything, even bananas and get harmed from it", but that doesn't nearly explain why they are abused as much as the fallacy you are committing.

Drugs are super, and that is exactly why they have the possibility of being abused more then other stuff, and -for all I think- that is why they remain illegal. You cannot have a social order going when everyone "opens their eyes" with drugs and "sees the reality" because then you will have no willing workers. That -I think- is why drugs are illegal, not because of some grand scheme in which "the government doesn't want you to see the truth" but because they potentially could harm people (physically or mentally) relative to something else.

Drugs may be wonderful, but at the very end they are drugs, not some holy divine substance landed on the face of the earth by caring and loving gods. Once you start being fanatics about it, you close your mind to other point of views and - for me - that was what drugs are about.

[KomodoMK]

Originally Posted by Stationary Traveller

Drugs are super, and that is exactly why they have the possibility of being abused more then other stuff, and -for all I think- that is why they remain illegal. You cannot have a social order going when everyone "opens their eyes" with drugs and "sees the reality" because then you will have no willing workers. That -I think- is why drugs are illegal, not because of some grand scheme in which "the government doesn't want you to see the truth" but because they potentially could harm people (physically or mentally) relative to something else.

The government don't want us to open our eyes and see the truth. Like you said it would bring social disorder and we would have no willing workers? Why? Because we realise that we are more than just a number and there is more to life. We no longer accept we are a pawn in a society built and controlled by the government.

Originally Posted by Stationary Traveller

What kind of baffles me is that, at least in this thread, nearly everyone has taken the stance that:
- drugs do open your eyes
- government is so wicked they don't want your eyes open

The reason this stance has been taken so many times by so many people is because it is what swimmers believe since taking drugs. It's not a theory it's the truth.

[Stationary Traveller]

Of course, what I mean by "workers" is not the boring life and the always-working average person on the street. But someone has to do the work, because if everyone took your stance, then we wouldn't have people cleaning the sewers, we wouldn't have cleaning staff and whatnot because see, "we are more valuable than that". There must be a balance between "work" and "life" that you describe because the two are interdependent.

[purplehaze]

That's exactly what I'm talking about here.

Originally Posted by purplehaze

The whole world is setup so the rich get richer and the poor stay poor. You don't work you don't eat, everybody knows that. But 90% of the people working jobs are doing something they hate, or never intended on doing. And then the job defines who they are. In the system, it gives them false pride and accomplishment that isn't worth anything. You have to contribute to the system if you want to succeed in life, and drugs point against that. Free will and open mind. Thats not something that society needs to move forward with technology and improving the future to be bigger and better than today.

There's really no solution to it. If people use drugs, they will live life. Life is the greatest thing given to them, and the government literally demands that being taken away.

7days in a week, 5 are usually spent working. 1 praising god and only 1 day to yourself. Drug's show that life should not be like that. The governments know that they could never truly hold power upon a people who are equally understanding to the world, and life itself. So in turn they frown upon the rebels of society and warn they are evil, no good, and bad people steering the rest into the herd. Before they ever open there mind and realise they are a pawn to society.

It breaks down like this, if everybody in the world drove a motorcycle, and you drove a car, they said anybody who drives a car has no cock and worships satan. Eventually the guys gonna switch over to a motorcycle, and the people who have never driven a car are never gonna try to drive the car because its looked down upon. Stupid analogy but i hope i made my point clear.

[Swimster]

Check this out, watch this Timothy leary video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kT31oB2vspw , then think about how the un-open-minded person will think of Leary. They will see him as a "bad person" or dumb.

The open-minded will aready know that it is wrong to judge him, that it is impossible to know what he is thinking. He is holding back because he is personal and smart, not because he's dumb. He does things his way, not others, not by rebelion, but because it's the real him.

Point is, if you judge people, you have problems. No-one is better than the next. Don't judge!

P.S: Question Authority

[DROid]

The main reason that a government would want to make drugs illegal would be for control over its subjects. However, I think another reason that drugs are illegal comes from culture clashes between the established elite that run the country and the minorities of society (by minorities I do not exclusively mean race, but also cultural minorities such as the Hippie subculture) who use the drugs. The best example I can think of is the 500g of Powdered Cocaine required to get a mandatory minimum sentence of 5 years in contrast to the 5g of Crack Cocaine (this comes from the US, my ethnocentrism showing itself). Since crack cocaine is disproportionately used by Blacks, while Cocaine tends towards a White clientele, this exemplifies cultural conflicts.
A final reason I have for a government making drugs illegal is as a means of self-perpetuation. If the governed people have nothing to fear than the government will not be able to justify its expansion and indeed, the people may even demand a lessening of its controls. While the specter of war is always a powerful element in causing fear, wars are hard to sustain indefinitely. But a "War on Drugs" is something that is easy to maintain by simply spewing forth prodigious amounts of propaganda decrying drugs' impact on society and the occasional horror story of someone getting high and then tossing their child in an oven.


if you're thinking tl:dr
1. Gov't enjoys control
2. Gov't suppresses minorities
3. Gov't needs fear to keep it going

[emoduckie]

DROid, and others interested: Watch "ZEITGEIST" http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...83847743189197

[Mr. Bob]

"We can't fight wars with drugs if they are legal. There would be little or no profit."

- The Great Government Drug Gods

[humdroid]

Heroin and coke, = monetary reasons.
Mind opening drugs = control of the minds of the masses, preserving ignorance and blocking avenues for consciousness raising.
Speed, as it's a pick me up, and banishes lethargy and depression temporarily.

[jh80w]

This is not a simple question at all and their are many upon many reasons why drugs are illegal. If you want to strip down all the ideas and find some kind of general statement that will suite this question, then it ultimately comes down to how different people are from one another. Almost anybody can be classified in some group, and some because of the way our society has been set up have priveleges and power over others. It doesn't make them better, more intelligent, more happy, it's simply just the way it is, and if you spend to much time trying to find out why, then to many things will pass you by. Instead we must accept it and open the door to the way people perceive drug users. It's an ignorance in the sense that many people are tied up in the way they believe something to realize that their hapiness is no more profound then that of anothers, and so they believe that "true" hapiness may only be found through the way which they see it. For drugs to become legal, many things would have to change, and most importantly the ignorance and lack of desire to truely understand people not like them.