Journal - Plan for getting off buprenorphine...please give your opinions...

[Richard_smoker]

thanks, dyingtomorrow.

you're right. this process involves a WHOLE lot of learning how to feel your body...and to listen to what your body is telling you EXACTLY. This can be a very difficult thing for any addict to do...it's very easy for swiys to find oneself lying to himself in this regard--after all, the very process we're trying to unravel was initially being unsatisfied with the feeling of 'sobriety.'

with that in mind, swim believes that there should be some EXACT parameters or definitions that one should use to DEFINE WITHDRAWAL:

For example:
- cold sweats
- gooseflesh / goosebumps (all of these symptoms can be reasonably assisted with an alpha-blocker like clonidine or
tenex (aka guanfacine)...these drugs are NOT controlled. I imagine they can be EASILY found, relatively cheap, via an
"online pharmacy"
- severe insomnia (incurable with over-the-counter sleep aids)--if one has access to stronger sleeping meds or even benzos
(valium, xanax, klonopin, etc), these symptoms COULD be tackled with other drugs. Be careful. Last thing anyone wants
or needs is A NEW ADDICTION! That's why I recommend Benadryl...if Benadryl doesn't work, then maybe you're tapering
too quickly for your own comfort.
- insomnia associated with RESTLESS LEGS--it is my personal belief that a slower taper might be the only TRUE
cure for this condition... that is, without a whole slew of other medical drugs/interventions. If someone were
interested in treating themselves for this condition, then perhaps one should look into ATYPICAL ANTI-PSYCHOTICS
which have DROWSINESS as a common side effect--i.e. Clozapine, Risperidone, ?Zyprexa?...there are others, but I
don't know how safe they are--i.e. parkinson's drugs: levo-Dopa/Carbi-Dopa, others; search for 'anti-parkinson
disease therapy' or 'restless leg syndrome' for ideas.
- diarrhea / cramping (not cured with immodium)
- THIS IS THE MOST DIFFICULT--> mental / psychological / nervous symptoms of withdrawal.
This can be anything from simple drug cravings,
rigors (shaking, tremors, "pill-rolling" type tremors),
autonomic instability (fast heartrate, high blood pressure, sweating, gooseflesh, feeling hot/cold/uncomfortable/restless/etc.)
This also includes depression,
energy levels (NOTE: buprenorphine w/d's can cause EXTREME lethargy, tiredness, sleeping for weeks or months).


PLEASE BE VERY CAREFUL TRYING TO TREAT YOUR OWN PSYCHOLOGICAL CONDITION WITH MORE OPIATES. This can be a TRAP! Remember, this kind of thinking is probably what got you here in the first place!

note: there is much overlap in the previous list of w/d symptoms. It is important to note just how many different central nervous system and peripheral nervous effects that OPIATES (i.e. ENDORPHINS) either directly control, or have major/minor effects on.

DISCLAIMER: Please consult your physician before attempting various drug therapies to assist with withdrawal. please exercise caution otherwise.

Reputation Comments on this post:

always very helpful and have good posts....thanks

[kailey_elise]

Originally Posted by Richard_smoker

- insomnia associated with RESTLESS LEGS--it is my personal belief that a slower taper might be the only TRUE
cure for this condition... that is, without a whole slew of other medical drugs/interventions. If someone were
interested in treating themselves for this condition, then perhaps one should look into ATYPICAL ANTI-PSYCHOTICS
which have DROWSINESS as a common side effect--i.e. Clozapine, Risperidone, ?Zyprexa?...there are others, but I
don't know how safe they are--i.e. parkinson's drugs: levo-Dopa/Carbi-Dopa, others; search for 'anti-parkinson
disease therapy' or 'restless leg syndrome' for ideas.

I realize this is an old thread, but wanted to throw my two-cents in on trying the sedating atypical antipsychotics (Risperdal, Zyprexa, Seroquel - not sure if Trazedone is in there too, but it's often 'scripted for sleep) for sleeping through opioid withdrawal induced restless legs syndrome:

It doesn't work for many of Those I Know.

In fact, the last time Someone I Know tried it (snuck some Seroquel into a detox facility, as RLS on day two ALWAYS keeps SIK awake), they were STILL unable to sleep & was just painfully fucked up instead (from the medication and lack of sleep). In fact, SIK mentioned that SIK was so out of it that coffee (instead of hot water) was poured onto a bowl of instant oatmeal SIX TIMES before chucking it in the bin & flopping down crossed legged on the floor, crying that SIK just wanted a fucking bowl of oatmeal and some sleep. Some kind souls put SIK in a chair and brought over a properly made bowl of instant oatmeal.

Before leaving, SIK apologized to the night staff for sneaking in the tablets and being a mess. Heh.

Anyway, I've done some research for my friends and acquaintances, and can't seem to get an answer as to whether or not the Parkinson's meds would help or not, & no one's been willing to give them a try. Can't say I blame them!

A long-winded way to say, sometimes you're just not gonna fucking sleep when withdrawing from opioids and it's occasionally a bit easier on the psyche to admit that then continually load up on sedating meds, hoping for SOMETHING. 'Sides, sometimes there are weird interactions (TIK have tried Benedryl, Seroquel, & melatonin in the same night, still didn't sleep & just felt very very very strange - 1 time SIK couldn't focus the eyes).

~Kailey

[bupaddict]

Hi swim says he recommneds Benadryl?
which one? or is it Benadryl Allergy capsules ?

Regards

[Richard_smoker]

yeah, benadryl is just the name-brand for diphenhydramine 25mg tabs.

the usual recommendation is to take up to 3 tablets for sleep, and give it 1 or 2 hours to kick in.

when tapering off buprenorphine, however, most people can probably take 4 to 6 tablets with no problems. -DICK

[Panthers007]

Everyone is different regards diphenhydramine dosage for sleep. For instance: Bongo, if he has insomnia, will take 200mg of this. It works and he sleeps. But for some people - and apes - 200mg would be a hallucinogenic dose.

[Richard_smoker]

Today is day #13 totally opioid-free. Day #62 since first day of buprenorphine taper.

Wow... I guess this is about it for this thread. What an amazing 2 months... Subutex doses up to 16mg daily, dropped to 4mg, 2mg, 1mg, 0.85mg, 0.8mg, 0.4mg, 0.2mg, then 0.0mg. roughly, you can take 1 step-down every 2-3 weeks with minimal discomfort.

my piggie used a 10cc syringe (no needle), dissolved the subutex tab into water, and 'dosed' 1cc of pre-determined strength drug. this was done from day 1 of taper all the way thru the end. it's an excellent psychological tool that adds credit to each dose (equal doses daily, compared to eating dust particles).

feel great today. have turned life around from being sedentary, sleeping most of day on couch into being awake all day now. it's great. have slowly picked up new habits, hobbies, activities with great success, especially near day#10 of total opiate-free life. each day seems to be better than the day before after day #10.

only problem is some difficulty sleeping at night, and the occasional muscular twitch at night while trying to sleep. not unbearable, but definitely reminds him of w/d's. but weird thing is that he's ok the next day even after 2 hours sleep. very weird. socialization skills are coming back. probably the slowest thing to return is 100% functioning in social settings. but definite improvement. -DICK

[dyingtomorrow]

Originally Posted by Richard_smoker

Today is day #13 totally opioid-free. Day #62 since first day of buprenorphine taper.

Wow... I guess this is about it for this thread. What an amazing 2 months... Subutex doses up to 16mg daily, dropped to 4mg, 2mg, 1mg, 0.85mg, 0.8mg, 0.4mg, 0.2mg, then 0.0mg. roughly, you can take 1 step-down every 2-3 weeks with minimal discomfort.

my piggie used a 10cc syringe (no needle), dissolved the subutex tab into water, and 'dosed' 1cc of pre-determined strength drug. this was done from day 1 of taper all the way thru the end. it's an excellent psychological tool that adds credit to each dose (equal doses daily, compared to eating dust particles).

feel great today. have turned life around from being sedentary, sleeping most of day on couch into being awake all day now. it's great. have slowly picked up new habits, hobbies, activities with great success, especially near day#10 of total opiate-free life. each day seems to be better than the day before after day #10.

only problem is some difficulty sleeping at night, and the occasional muscular twitch at night while trying to sleep. not unbearable, but definitely reminds him of w/d's. but weird thing is that he's ok the next day even after 2 hours sleep. very weird. socialization skills are coming back. probably the slowest thing to return is 100% functioning in social settings. but definite improvement. -DICK

Congrats Richard!!!!!!!

That is really great to hear. I'm very happy for you! Thanks for posting your updates as well; it is a huge morale booster to people trying to make it through too to hear things like this.

Would you mind sharing how the 0.2 to 0.0 mg step went? Did SWIY have anything to help in through it? Painful or painless?

Thanks and congrats again on getting totally clean! Oh, and please don't leave! lol

[Richard_smoker]

haha... yeah, here's how it went.

after a long, protracted course of 2-3 weeks between step-downs, i basically only took the 0.2mg dose for about 4 days. then zero... and never looked back.

it was pretty easy for me, and i was SOOO ready to jump off by then. if you were feeling less-than-motivated, i would say that it'd be OK to take 0.2mg twice/daily for 2 weeks or so, then 0.1mg once or twice/daily for the last week or even 2 weeks...but, i'd jump off for sure at that point.

even doing it really fast at the end like this piggy did was relatively painless. you gotta get your mindset straight though...as long as the thought process is one of FEAR (i.e. fear that you're going to fail), then you'll never jump off. I'd suggest getting morale-boosting support from family, friends, and online (send us p.m.s or post to these threads).

don't forget about clonidine, tenex (guanfacine), a sedating antihistamine (benadryl, promethazine, or atarax), or even sleeping pills or benzos for the first few days. my stance on this position changed several times over the last 2 months, but in the end, i think it's probably in your BEST INTERESTS to at least try to sleep all day thru the worst withdrawals. i.e. for a few days each time you drop your dose, and then finally for the first few days after you jump off to zero.

This is very encouraging to me still--even 13 days out from all opiates. Please continue posting experiences, questions, fears, etc. God knows, it's MUCH BETTER than rehab and meetings!!!!

-DICK

[infekt]

congratulations my man

[Richard_smoker]

hey guys. just a quick update.

swim is now approaching the 3 month mark off the buprenorphine. 4 months since beginning the taper down.

there have been a few close calls, but nothing major. still living 1 day at a time and trying to make some good decisions. I think God every day for this forum.
-DICK

[Dickon]

I've not seen you around for a while, but just wanted to say congratulations on the 3 months! That's a major achievement. 100 days then 4 months next! How are you feeling now? I am really enjoying life at the moment. My lethargy is now only intermittent, and I've discovered dancing and Zen meditation again. I'm really enjoying my massages, and most things in life!

We've just started making our house tidy and nice, and that's really important to me. Spring is coming, and soon the grass will be ris and the bird will be on the wing (but that's absurd, I always thought the wing was on the bird!). I feel all tingly with anticipation of new life!

Yep, it was a good idea getting these animals away from naughty drugs! It's also been fun that there are about 6 of us doing this, who have used DF, at roughly the same time! A diverse community of kindred souls.

Well, I'm going to bring my wife some tea in bed, and then it's off to Baby College, then I'm having a massage, and this evening I'm going to do some Zen meditation! Ha, being me is brilliant! I hope you are feeling that being you is brilliant too!

Dickon

[Richard_smoker]

Dickon, to answer your question, I feel like I'm still prisoner to cycles... while under the grasp of the drug, these cycles were daily (or even multiple-per-day depending on dosing), but outside the drug's grasp, the cycles seem to stretch on for days and weeks, sometimes longer.

there is a weirdness to these cycles, because attributes that i had THOUGHT were co-existent (belonged in the same 'wave') exist independently from one another.

whereas very early on in the experience, I noticed that I had TONS of energy---energy to post, energy to babble on and socialize, while Dickon, I noticed you kinda went into silent hiding for a while...

THEN, over a month later, I found myself living in the low-energy-state, with barely enough energy to post here or there...yet YOU DICKON were FLYING AROUND LIKE A MADMAN---but with DIRECTION and PURPOSE!!!

My current state of affairs is that I feel like I am emerging from a groggy/slow/lazy/low energy state. I am being bombarded now with opportunities professionally and career-wise. I believe that I am ready to get out there and show the world what I'm made of.

THANK YOU EVERYONE!