getting off subutex (buprenorphine) help!

[Hchipper]

Hi all!
Swim has been on subutex for 2 years now for H addiction, started on 16mg per day (two 8's) for the first year, then spent the next year reducing slowly. Everything was great for the first year and a half, swim turned life around and started a degree, filled life with things that weren't drugs, it was great! But now swim is only taking 4mg per day (two 2's) and things have taken a turn for the worse. For a year and a half swim had no cravings what so ever and had energy to go out and do things, swim was telling everyone how great subutex is, how they never thought about heroin. But since reducing down to 4mg everything has come flooding back and cravings have become intense, swim has lost appetite, is feeling depressed, doesn't want to do anything or see anyone and everyday swim wakes up feeling uncomfortable & gets silly ideas in head. Swim has now started chipping, about once or twice a week, swim doesn't think this is good as swim spent two years clean- now for what, and now swim has things to lose. The trouble is 4mg does not block in the same way higher doses did, it feels pointless now and swim can't see how to ever stop this cycle and get off everything once and for all. Swim has read all the posts about subs and knows not to jump off til swim gets down to at least 0.4mg tabs- but swim is really worried that the lower the dose of subs the more likely swim will go out and score, it feels like a catch 22. Swim doesn't know what to do & needs advice, what say you, wise people?

[infekt]

I wish i could give you some real good advice man. Here's my take on the situation: GET OFF THE HEROIN BEFORE YOU GET OFF THE SUBS PLEASE! Spend a good amount of time without heroin whilest on the 4mg your on. Don't ask me how to get off of it, I know it's a bitch...support groups maybe? Intensive Out patient rehab? Councilling? do something!

because the withdrawals from sub are terrible. And if Swim was using at the time he got off subs, he would be doing heroin non stop.

In terms of withdrawals, some things that helped swim was a catapres (clonidine) patch (for the pain, for 7 days), Buspar (Buspirone, for the anxiety), and seroquel (Quetiapine, for sleep). Granted, swiy is still gonna feel like shit, but it'll be better than it would be. Ask your doctor about this.

Reputation Comments on this post:

excellent advise...keep these coming.

[Richard_smoker]

infekt, that's some really good advise. I wish we could somehow integrate your reply into some User-Guides of FAQs on the subjects of both opiate/heroin kicking as well as a buprenorphine/subutex/suboxone user-guide.

to Hchipper, unfortunately, there's no one single "correct" answer to your problem. For one, it sounds like you need some kind of life-changing event...

unfortunately, this kind of "super-powerful" event will not present itself on its own, unless of course, you are "blessed" with a near-death or near-overdose-death situation. In the case of a woman, losing her children by child-protective services is another example of the "super-power" event. In rehab, it is generally believed that so-called "rock-bottom" is sufficient to generate real, habit-altering lifestyle changes. But in reality, you're not going to fit that normal mold of addiction interruption.

First of all, you absolutely MUST accept that for you to change permanently, you must realize that the old, traditional models of addiction & recovery do NOT apply to you. Why? Because you've been blessed with this wonderful tool called suboxone... you must absolutely meditate & obscess over the changes that you've already made in your life, since the introduction of suboxone.

You must find a place in your heart, mind, & soul that is capable of understanding that it was YOU who changed...the suboxone was merely a very small tool that ALLOWED you to change. until you accept those recent accomplishments and the changes you've experience FOR THE POSITIVE, as YOUR OWN ACCOMPLISHMENTS, then you will always go back to the heroin.

After all, heroin (and the addiction) was more-than-likely your own way of shirking responsibilities... now, granted, this mindset is probably something that you've long-since abandoned, you must realize that it was central to the original behaviors that got you started with tampering with what you already knew to be one of, if not THE most highly addictive drugs on the planet.

It could very well be that the best thing you've got going for you IN THE LONG RUN, is knowing that you have strong tendencies to got BACK to the heroin when the subutex isn't clasped firmly onto your brain cells.

TBH, you really don't have that many options here. First of all, you're gonna have to tell your doctor what you did...tell him/her that you're still committed 100% to recovery, but you're starting to feel some signs of withdrawal...ask your doctor to help you...be ready to hit him with the catapres patch/clonidine idea as well as something to help you sleep, when and IF you finally get off the bupe.

Lastly, I think that you're going to need some real, serious group therapy. If you haven't been to NA yet, you can bet your ass that you belong there every week, if not every night. This is by ALL MEANS a long-term, life-long disease that must be treated as such...bupe is nothing more than a tool to guide you through the initial process, so you can experience life being QUIT before you actually HAVE to quit...I'm sure you have learned many useful, powerful reasons to be quit--just in the last 1 1/2 years. meditate on them frequently. you can do this. you might need some assistance from others, but NO ONE can do it for you. ask for help now. don't wait until you've slipped back into a full-blown heroin habit. -DICK

[gezza26]

Hmmm some SWIY obsess about getting off everything. Personally SWIM believes people put themselves through needless misery getting off drugs they prob still need, meaning methadone or subs. SWIM doesn't mind staying on them as long as the good out weighs the bad. If SWIM were to come off subs he'd do it on the worlds slowest taper. Meaning a year, hell even 2 years if need be.

Reputation Comments on this post:

good advice

[JaWill88]

swim must say swim once got to 2mg but is was hell doing so. he was on 8mg and then cut to 4. at 4 he felt like shit. so what he did was stop taking it for a few days, with the help of lots of clonazepam. he got plenty sick but had clonazepam to at least keep him some what sane and somewhat relaxed. then he went to 4 again and this time it was more than satisfying. he did the same until 2mg. it worked. swim evenutally was completely normal on 2mg. but stupid swim went back home from california to washington and got on 8 again. that is where he is now. swim was able to get free detox and treatment but has to detox before the inpatient treatment. swim has a bed for him tonight at 7:00 pm and is wondering how this is going to work. he doesn't want to do it. appearantly they don't give shit for meds. swim is thinking about getting back to 2mg. than maybe even 1. and then cold turkey but with plenty of clonazepam. swim doesn't know what to do. the bup withdrawal is like one month so a 7 day detox isn't really going to help and has to be completely detoxed before being able to do inpatient treatment. and swim has a seizure last night and wound up in the ER so he really doesn't know what to do. any advice?

[Hchipper]

Hey guys,
Just wanted to say thank you for your replies and advice, you all say useful things. since i wrote that post swim has been trying to get involved with as many agencies as possible that can help. Swim is also now regretting agreeing to do so many different things, but is gonna try it out to see if it helps. Swims got a relapse prevention group tonight and an NA meeting on sunday. Swim isn't sure about NA cos the god stuff, and 12 steps is a bit/very off-putting, but swim really just wants to do anything to keep busy and has a friend who goes and really wants to tell swim how great it is (swim will see). Also swim has had to increase back to 6mg, didn't really want to but it is the most sensible thing for now until swim goes back to university. Swim has realised just how f'ing difficult its gonna be to get free of subutex, swim doesn't want to be on them forever, but as some1 else wrote, its better to be on subs for a while longer than to go back to heroin (so they say). Swim's been clean for two years and doesn't want to wreck it all now, swim realised how naive it was to think that subs had fixed all the problems and that everything was sorted. Now swim knows in their head that there is still a battle, swim can deal with things better. Swim knows a change of routine can make a big difference, motivation (well lack of) has been the main problem, and boredom. these are things swim can do something about. Anyway, swim really does appreciate the advice and support (and needs it), thanks ev1.

[Richard_smoker]

i know this might sound a bit naive/ignorant, but might it be possible to get off the subs by exercising a couple times a day---provided that someone had enough time in their day? -DICK

[JaWill88]

Originally Posted by Richard_smoker

i know this might sound a bit naive/ignorant, but might it be possible to get off the subs by exercising a couple times a day---provided that someone had enough time in their day? -DICK

YES... if- 1. swiy has tapered really low, otherwise it's gonna be too hard to get up and do stuff, in swims opinion. and 2. find the right excersize, something light. like maybe walking, swimming, or some other light excersise. taking a warm bath/shower and than walking can do wonders. usually shower before the excersize and bathe in warm water after. that can truly do wonders.

[Psych0naut]

Originally Posted by Richard_smoker

i know this might sound a bit naive/ignorant, but might it be possible to get off the subs by exercising a couple times a day---provided that someone had enough time in their day? -DICK

Heavy, intense excercise certainly makes tapering opioid use a lot easier. Heavy excercise causes a natural release of Endorphines, the body's own natural opioids. Running and speed-cycling are renowned for causing a "runners high", which is nothing else but an Endorphine high, causes by high levels of Endorphine released in the brain, triggered by the excercise. This Endorphine high is really effective at killing cravings for opioids and makes it much easier to stay off of them, and in turn taper one's dose over time. It has been very helpful to SWIM.

[infekt]

Yoga does a good job of releasing toxins, anyone have any experience with yoga and detox?

[JaWill88]

GOD DAMNIT! swim was on 8mg per day. did heroin for like 6 days then went to two days ago. it was fucking hell!!!! he didn't even make it a full 48 hours before his ass jumped right out of there. and they did give good meds but the problem was they did NOTHING to him as he has a very very high tolerance for benzos, barbs, and others. the main drug was phenobarbital 90mg. a couple months ago swim was prescribed to take 300mg at once! thats the problem. it truly was horrible. swim has had some pretty nasty up to three gram/day (black) heroin habbits and withdrawal was hell at detox, but he did it, and a couple times. but this, this was like none other. swim is in the same hole. this suboxone withdrawal is just plain terrible. maybe its cause swim was on it 2 years and almost always at 32mg/day. maybe he should do some more tapering? oh yeah and he has go to court on october 15 which for sure he will be doing time so it doesn't look like there is a good way out of this one. and his time is most likely going to be a hefty prison sentence. goddamnit im 20 years old and look at the shit im in. ahh sorry for rambling. but any advice? swim took 4mg today and it doesn't feel good. he's not in full withdrawal or anything but just doesn't feel like doing anything and feels cold. anyways anyone got any advice? sorry for the long post.

[W!SE]

^^ one thing swim can tell you swiYou MUST DO is go thru WD b4 jail as much as possible..most likely swiy prob wont and will take the usual route by using as much as possible b4 going away...why? "because ima b in jail either way man fk it" PLEASE DONT THINK LIKE THAT at least taper down as much as possible b4hand or swiyou will pay for it if not. good luck eye feel ur situation

[JaWill88]

Originally Posted by W!SE

^^ one thing swim can tell you swiYou MUST DO is go thru WD b4 jail as much as possible..most likely swiy prob wont and will take the usual route by using as much as possible b4 going away...why? "because ima b in jail either way man fk it" PLEASE DONT THINK LIKE THAT at least taper down as much as possible b4hand or swiyou will pay for it if not. good luck eye feel ur situation

yes thanks good advice.

[W!SE]

swim would always say to his friends..."you know what's sucks more than withdrawal?....WITHDRAWAL...AT WORK.... and you know what's even worse than that? WITHDRAWAL..IN JAIL"

never experienced the last one but swim stands by his statement