Drug info - A little help with some Subutex

[china cat]

Just got this email from a very close friend.......he's a bit of a dick really but I'd like to help him but don't know what to say. Anyone else help?


"I've got a good stash of Subutex tablets that I keep for an emergency. With the poor quality gear going about in my area I fancy using some to get nice and stoned. I've never used subutex before.

I understand that because it is an antagonist and partial agonist I can't just snort it whenever but have to wait until I am experiencing opiate withdrawal symptons?

Is this true? Has anyone you know taken subutex when they are already high on opiates? How long, if at all, do I need to lay off the meth and H before I pop it up my nose?

Any advice would be appreciated. I don't want to crush it up, snort it and then be strung out or whatever for the next 24 hours!!!!"

[jon-q]

the only people swim as seen high off subys have been realitivly straight before using.i would guess if you already have your receptors full with opiates the subys would be unable to latch on..this is only my opinion and could well be wrong.

jon-q added 8 Minutes and 18 Seconds later...

definately wait until your some what rid of opiates ,i bellieve subys also contain naloxone which would give swim somewhat more than he bargind for.

[china cat]

swim has heard that suboxone has naltrexone included to prevent abuse but I don't think this applies to subutex? A good friend of swim who gave swim the subutex said that just an eighth of a tablet crushed and snorted gets him very stoned and he's had a very large habit for a very long time so will have a high tolerance.

In Scottish jails just one subutex tablets sells for £50 as you only need to snort a very small amount to get stoned.

Swim is going to wait until he's strung out sometime before he puts it up his nose. Swim doesn't like the idea of a very sudden onset of withdrawals that you can do nothing about!

Swim is also wondering if they test for subutex at the methadone clinic? Anyone?

[NeverSober]

Swim is prescribed it....Have never tried snorting it, swim just lets it dissolve under his tongue like Dr's orders....Swim and friends dont get high from it at all....You def should be withdrawing before taking as it will put you right into withdrawals if you are high or not withdrawing before swim takes it. Swim would wait atleast 12-20 hrs before taking subutex

[wopa]

listen swim once did the subbies while on the brown and around 15 mins stated to rattle (c.turkey) no slow build up just bang straight into a rattle ....nightmere never again

[Richard_smoker]

subutex has no naloxone.

but, it will throw you into withdrawals if you don't wait a little while. You should be ok if you wait until the next morning... i.e. haven't done anything since last night. just remember that the longer you wait, the better, so if you could hold off for a whole day, it's best. but only difference is that you'll actually feel "good" for a few hours.

don't forget though, that other opiates will suck after taking bupe. it takes 2-3 days to get back to normal. -DICK

[dude]

Swim took 360mg oxycodone/ day (12 30's) One morning he took an 8 sub and went into extreme withdraw. Didn't understand sub's at the time. Had to take about 20 30's to get out of withdraw. But when swim was up to 500mg a day of oxy he did it right w/ subs. You have to be in withdraw before subs will work. A 6 8's swim stopped shakin. Sub's are great when your ready to quit.

[On The Nod]

Yea SWIY can get a 'buzz' off subutex by snorting, however you have to be clean from other opiates or else as said you do go into a rattle which subsequently cannot be stopped untill the subutex is out of your system, roughly 2 days. Heroins out of the system within 3-4 days, meths is like 5-6 days waiting time...

[Spyder]

Here's the deal w/ buprenorphine: Bupren. is very strong at "Grabbing" swiY opiate receptors and holding on/standing guard. Once on the receptor, bupren. will NOT allow any other opiate onto the receptor. The problem is, although they are strong in this sense, they are NOT strong enough in the 'Getting High' sense.

So, for example: Someone is on a large dose of H (and a daily user)....they take some subutex/suboxone/etc. The Buprenorphine goes in......kicks the H off the receptors....and takes control. Problem: Now the user gets SICK!....as the Bupren. dosn't fulfill the users need.

The Blockers:
Naloxone: Typically used in Opiate Overdose, life/death situations
Naltrexone: Typically used to treat dependence, daily dose, etc.

Although it is Naloxone that is in some forumulations of Buprenorphine (Suboxone). This 'Blocker' was originally put in, not to stop the use of "Other" opiates, but rather attempt to stop the abuse of the Buprenorphine itself. The effectivness of this is up for debate.

Bottomline is, a heavy Opiate user/abuser even after some abstinance will probably find very little "Pleasure" from doses of Bupren., other than what 'pleasure' they receive from not being in withdrawl..lol....

S

PS: SwiS realizes this is highly oversimplified (mostly for swiHis own understanding..lol)...That being said, the Wikipedia has some very nice, well referenced, highly detailed articles covering all of the above (Buprenorphine, Naltrexone, Naloxone, etc.)

[msmogadon]

SWIM did a detox from heroin using subutex at a rehab clinic in her area. At the time she was smoking about a gram a day. She had her last smoke at 9:30am and then went to rehab. She waited all day and 11:30pm came and she still felt like she could hold it off, but the night nurse at the rehab clinic told her she would have to take it before going to bed.
So SWIM took the Subutex the 1st dose was to be 4mg followed by 8mg 4 hours later. Well about 20mins after the first dose the sweats started and tossing and turning all night, shivering etc. SWIM dosn't have to explain. SWIYs all know what SWIMs sayin.
4 hours later SWIM went for her 2nd dose. The dozy nurse gave her 2x 8mgs instead of 2 x 4mgs.
Man SWIM felt like shit for a good 4 days and continued to experience w/d's for the rest of the week. SWIM thought that she may aswell have went CT.
anyway what SWIM thinks was that going from smoking a gram to taking the Subs was too much of a jump - as the clinic will only accept people on <30mls of methadone and she was doing a lot of H at the time.
SWIM don't know what all the fuss is about this drug - she is not a fan, it does not make for good feelings at all especially if SWIY has a daily H habit.

[mickey_bee]

Originally Posted by msmogadon

anyway what SWIM thinks was that going from smoking a gram to taking the Subs was too much of a jump - as the clinic will only accept people on <30mls of methadone and she was doing a lot of H at the time.
SWIM don't know what all the fuss is about this drug - she is not a fan, it does not make for good feelings at all especially if SWIY has a daily H habit.

Sounds like swiy got a rubbish nurse there, bad luck!

But yeah, if swiy were on a gram a day, it's no surprise that the subutex did sod all.......like swiy say, subutex is only really of value in detoxing users who are at the lower end of tolerance/dependence.
I don't think anywhere's supposed to prescribe subbys these days unless you're below 30mgs of methadone daily, or an equivalent amount of gear.

swim remembers when he went into the clinic after smoking 3/4ish bags a day and they offered him either 30mgs meth or straight onto the subbies.
Swim was silly and too afraid of not being able to get high when he wanted, so he chose methadone. daft sod.

[nomadhocrat]

SWIM began suboxone treatment--again!--around 60 days ago (this is SWIMs 5th or 6th stab at suboxone maintenance treatment). In the past, SWIM was told to wait 12-24 hours after last dose of H to administer suboxone. Once SWIM made the mistake of waiting only 12 hours, and she went into HORRIFYING "rapid withdrawal". Ever since, SWIM has been exceedingly careful to wait 24 hours OR longer (until 3 or 4 symptoms of withdrawal are present at the same time...) and hasn't had another rapid withdrawal incident.

SWIM's current doctor did a urinalysis and said based on the amount of H still in SWIM's system after FIVE full days after last dose, SWIM was using exceptionally pure H (and lots of it). This means that SWIM's withdrawal was taking two or three times longer than other SWIY's to come on.

Moral of SWIM's story: SWIYs may have to wait up to 30-40 hours to be capable of comfortably transition onto suboxone. In SWIM's experience, wait as long as you possibly can bear to wait: the further along into withdrawal SWIYs are, the quicker suboxone works and with fewer unpleasant side-effects (visual disturbances, excessive sweating, weakness, nausea, etc.).

Reputation Comments on this post:

Nice post, good advice

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by nomadhocrat

.......Moral of SWIM's story: SWIYs may have to wait up to 30-40 hours to be capable of comfortably transition onto suboxone. In SWIM's experience, wait as long as you possibly can bear to wait: the further along into withdrawal SWIYs are, the quicker suboxone works and with fewer unpleasant side-effects (visual disturbances, excessive sweating, weakness, nausea, etc.).

That's probably the most sound advice swiS has seen on here yet. Nice Post! SwiWe all know how it is...start feeling a little bit shitty and swiWe need to take/do something!

Best to just try and find something to do that will take the mind away during the "Waiting Period"...easier said than done, but hey....

Good Luck...S

[afrance101]

suboxone has the naloxone, not subutex, thats why the good detoxes give you subutex because you can take it right away even with opiates in your system. There are also different strengths, 2 mg, 4mg, and 8mg, I had been clean for about 3 weeks once and took an 8 mg and I was high, very high, but ive also been in detox the first day and taken 16 mg and still been dopesick, it will definately relieve your symptoms to some extent, it just depends on your habit and like I said the strength of the tablet. I'm not entirely sure about taking subutex by any other route except for sublingually, but I don't see how it could do any harm since there is not opiate antagonist, but when you take it under your tongue it actually is dissolved into a tiny vein under your tongue so that might be better than snorting it anyway, but I would definately find out if it is subutex or suboxone, because if it's suboxone than you do not want to take it any other way than prescribed and wait until you're in withdrawals before it's administered. I didn't really read the other posts, so I'm sure Im just repeating what other informed people are posting, but I'm just trying to bide my time until someone answers my post
Take care

afrance101 added 22 Minutes and 30 Seconds later...

sorry, swim was just informed of the self disclosure policy, none the less, swim hoipes the post was helpful

[msmogadon]

Originally Posted by afrance101

suboxone has the naloxone, not subutex, thats why the good detoxes give you subutex because you can take it right away even with opiates in your system.

Subutex cannot be taken straight away. SWIYs still have to wait cause Subutex WILL put a person in w/d's SWIM has seen it and its not pretty

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by afrance101

suboxone has the naloxone, not subutex, thats why the good detoxes give you subutex because you can take it right away even with opiates in your system.

Careful, as this is only about 1/2 true.

Originally Posted by msmogadon

Subutex cannot be taken straight away. SWIYs still have to wait cause Subutex WILL put a person in w/d's SWIM has seen it and its not pretty

What swimsmogadon is saying is correct. It is not only the blocker that causes the person to experience w/d's. The 'problem' is that Buprenorphine has a much much higher "Affinity" to swiYour opiate receptors than Heroin or Methadone. This means that if there is Meth/Heroin on the receptor dancing around making swiY feel fine, then the Bupren. comes along, and kicks it off and takes it's place. BUT the buprenorphine itself isn't "Strong" enough to keep a 'high dose' user from feeling w/d's.

Once the Methadone/Heroin is gone and swiY are feeling w/d's then taking the bupren. will immediatly grab the receptors and help balance the w/d's, probably not completly for a high dosage user, but the sickness of a full blown w/d will be avoided.

Basically saying the same thing, but Quoted from Wikipedia:

"Another issue of concern for patients considering beginning any maintenance therapy or switching from one maintenance therapy to another is the transition associated with this switch. Due to buprenorphine's high-affinity to opioid receptors in the brain, care needs to be taken when a patient is transitioning from one drug (i.e., heroin) or medication (i.e., methadone) to buprenorphine. Essentially, if an opioid-dependent patient is not in sufficient withdrawal, introduction of buprenorphine may precipitate withdrawal. In layman's terms, in a sufficient dose, buprenorphine "pushes" any other opioids off of the receptors, but is itself not always "strong enough" to counteract the withdrawal symptoms this causes. Thus, opioid-dependent patients, particularly those on methadone or another long-acting medication or drug should be thoroughly honest with their prescribing doctor about their drug use, particularly in the days immediately preceding their induction onto buprenorphine, whether for detoxification or maintenance. In contrast, the transition from buprenorphine or other opioids to methadone is generally easier, and any discomfort or side effects are more likely to be easily remedied with dose adjustments."

Read the entire Wikipedia article on Buprenorphine, it has a decent explanation of this. Still, one should be taking the subutex or generic 'buprenorphine' w/o the blocker present, as this just complicates things.

Take care...swiSpyder know...no matter how good of a "Plan" one has to get off the shit....IT SUCKS! no matter how/when/where/why.....no gettin' round it. so Good LucK!!!

S

SOURCE:

Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buprenorphine

[frankz81]

swim recently experienced precipitated withdrawls by having subs too early after my last oxy. it was horiffic to say the least!!!

if u have them while high on anything else, u will ONLY go into withdrawl if you are dependant on that opiate....ie if ur non tolerant and have some heroin, having subutex after it will kill the heroin buzz but u wont withdrawl....
on the other hand,if ur straight or on subs anyways, having a decent ddose ike 8mgs will give u a nice buzz, more through the body than anything else and longer lived than a high from oc's...

swim does occasionally iv 8mgs of subutex and it is quite nice contrary to what people say...alot say its a waste cos its used to get clean, but thats simply not the case as there is norspan patches and temgesic for pain releif.

BUT in no way have any buprenorphine if u are dependant on any other opiate, u will regret it badly!!

Reputation Comments on this post:

no self-incrimination

[unema]

Its very important your friend wait till in full withdrawal(24-48 hrs after last dose) or he will go into a very painful and long WD. If he has a heavy H habit he most likely will not get a buzz from the subs. SWIM knows a guy that never did H before, popped a sub and was drooling all over himself for several hours. So they are strong, but will do nothing to someone with a monkey on the back. Tell him to wait till hes WDing and use them to actually get clean.

Boy if SWIM had some subs right now...it would be a wonderful week!

peace
-unema

[JaWill88]

swim will say if one is far into withdrawal enough, or doesn't have a really big habit/tolerance, it can definately get one high. anyways swim cannot emphasize enough about being in bad withdrawal before taking buprenorphine (doesn't matter if it's subutex (buprenorphine) or suboxone (buprenorphine/naloxone). the ONLY time the naloxone (opioid antagonist) in suboxone sends one into withdrawal is when suboxone is IV'ed. this is because the naloxone is inactive when taken sublingually. it may happen if the suboxone is snorted (obviously not subutex cause there is no naloxone) but swim thinks the chances are much less than if IV'ed. as mentioned above buprenorhine is a partial opioid agonist unlike almost all other opioids (codeine, oxycodone, hydrocodone, morhine, heroin, ect.) so if a full agonist is still active the buprenorphine will kick it out and send one into withdrawals since it binds really strong to receptors. hope this helps just wanted to clear it up a little. swim has gone into the rapid withdrawal from taking it while not in full withdrawal and it is HELL. unlike anything. it is NOT like just going into normal withdawal it's like a shot of naloxone cause the buprenorphine kicks it out IMMEDIATLY. it is truly horrid. anyways good luck to all.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Nice to see some solid info, especially in this catagory-notorious for the 'rumors' or just totally wrong info being tos...

[unema]

Originally Posted by JaWill88

swim will say if one is far into withdrawal enough, or doesn't have a really big habit/tolerance, it can definately get one high. anyways swim cannot emphasize enough about being in bad withdrawal before taking buprenorphine (doesn't matter if it's subutex (buprenorphine) or suboxone (buprenorphine/naloxone). the ONLY time the naloxone (opioid antagonist) in suboxone sends one into withdrawal is when suboxone is IV'ed. this is because the naloxone is inactive when taken sublingually. it may happen if the suboxone is snorted (obviously not subutex cause there is no naloxone) but swim thinks the chances are much less than if IV'ed. as mentioned above buprenorhine is a partial opioid agonist unlike almost all other opioids (codeine, oxycodone, hydrocodone, morhine, heroin, ect.) so if a full agonist is still active the buprenorphine will kick it out and send one into withdrawals since it binds really strong to receptors. hope this helps just wanted to clear it up a little. swim has gone into the rapid withdrawal from taking it while not in full withdrawal and it is HELL. unlike anything. it is NOT like just going into normal withdawal it's like a shot of naloxone cause the buprenorphine kicks it out IMMEDIATLY. it is truly horrid. anyways good luck to all.

Good info however I think you can snort suboxone without activating the naloxone. I say this because SWIM has snorted suboxones before as well as seen others with a habit. Maybe it was because SWIM was 4 days into WD?

peace
-unema

[Spyder]

Very Nice Post swiJaWill88! SwiS cannot count how many times he has tried to explain this situation to others. SwiS's refering to the Buprenorphines "Strength" to grab onto ones receptors.

Most everyone typically has the impression that it is the Naloxone that causes most of these problems, when it's the drug itself--Bupren. is very greedy w/ opiate receptors. SwiS tried a Bupren. program several years ago (Prior to resorting to Methadone), he failed mainly due to his willpower, just not being 'ready', and enviroment/friends....He basically used the bupren. as a "Safety Net" when he didn't have his H. This plan stinks, mainly because he was constantly having overlap-take a bupren. too early, shoot some H too soon, etc.

Bottomline, SwiS was (Is???) just plain stupid w/ his approach. One thing to point out though is swiS had all of the "instant withdrawl" issues, etc. and he was not on the Sub. pills, but a pharmacy prepared Buprenorphine sublingual 'waxy' lozenge w/ NO Naloxone.

SwiS's advice for what it's worth. If swiY intend to use this drug as a tool to stop opiates, be sure swiYour committed, make a plan/program and stick to it, these nasty withdrawls/issues WILL happen to you-don't test the already proven!

Good Luck.....Best Regards...S

[dyingtomorrow]

Originally Posted by china cat

Just got this email from a very close friend.......he's a bit of a dick really but I'd like to help him but don't know what to say. Anyone else help?


"I've got a good stash of Subutex tablets that I keep for an emergency. With the poor quality gear going about in my area I fancy using some to get nice and stoned. I've never used subutex before.

I understand that because it is an antagonist and partial agonist I can't just snort it whenever but have to wait until I am experiencing opiate withdrawal symptons?

Is this true? Has anyone you know taken subutex when they are already high on opiates? How long, if at all, do I need to lay off the meth and H before I pop it up my nose?

Any advice would be appreciated. I don't want to crush it up, snort it and then be strung out or whatever for the next 24 hours!!!!"

Yes, I'm on suboxone right now. You have to wait until you are in pretty serious withdrawals if you are on H, and REALLY REALLY serious withdrawals if you are on methadon (like 2 days of withdrawals), otherwise suboxone/subutex with give you the worst withdrawals you can imagine. My brother tried to kill himself a couple weeks ago after taking it too early because he couldn't take the pain.

Also, to add to some things people said, snorting suboxone will activate the naloxone too (only sublingual doesn't). But that's a pointless fact anyways, because bupe is already a partial antagonist and will send your ass into withdrawals if you have opiates in your system. The naloxone is really pointless. If you make the suboxone switch and are on it a couple days, you can shoot it because the bupe binds to your receptors harder than the naloxone can affect, but it's not really worth it anyways - shooting that disgusting orange shit that doesn't even get you high is no where near as good as H, anyone will tell you.