Opinions - Children and LSD

[Burnt]

cool my mistake i misunderstood the condition. so what it's a re-occuring condition then. where people keep hallucinating whether it was caused by drug action directly or not is not known.

anyway i think i was thinking HPPD and flashbacks as the same thing but that was my mistake. anyway can HPPD clearly be associated with psychedelics or personal genetic or environmental factors? this is a big what if no?

the only people SWIM can think that SWIM knows of who suffered reaccuring hallucinations were heavy users of dissociatives like pcp and a friend who went schizophrenic which would have happened whether he did drugs or not. nobody SWIM knows who used LSD excessively ever had such a condition.

[bananaskin]

Well, my friend has an autistic son and was taken on a journey of study and education by this thread.
The mind boggles...we can only ever be where we are.
Thank you

[sandoz1943]

SWIM feels that giving anyone LSD without thier prior knowledge is wrong. This could be a hellish experience for an adult let alone a child.
As far as LSD and the effects it could have this is SWIMs personal experience.
SWIM had been taking LSD for 3 years about 5-6 times a month. SWIM had taken precautions to prevent becomming pregnant. In spite of the precautions SWIM became pregnant and did not know until she was 4 months along because she continued to have her period the first two months of her pregnancy. SWIM would NEVER intentionally take drugs while pregnant. At that time SWIM did not drink, smoke (even pot), take any OTC or prescription drugs or other illegal drugs. SWIM was asked by her doctor if she had taken drugs durring her preganancy and she was honest and told him. SWIMs doctor advised her there was a doctor at the high risk clinic doing a study and put her in touch with him. He told her that she was the perfect candidate for the study because LSD was the only substance she had been exposed to explaining most women in the study had either smoked, drank or did other drugs. The doctor followed SWIM through her entire pregnancy and kept record of all her test results. SWIM gave birth to a beautiful healthy 6 lb 10 oz baby boy with no complications. The doctor had SWIMs son in once a year for the next 6 years. They kept track of how he was doing health, school, social. They would also give SWIMs son tests to check his skills cognative, language, memory. They would ask him questions to gauge him on language, social skills, intelligence ect. The doctor explained that they had done studies and not found any birth defects or chromosome damage caused by LSD. He also told her that these studies had tracked children of LSD users for three generations and no damage had been found so far. SWIMs son has a 164 IQ he has had no significant health proplems and seems to be well adjusted outside of some issues with authority. He's damn handsom too (you can see him in her album)SWIM by no means would have done this intentually or sugest anyone else do this. SWIM is happy that some one was doing these types of studies and that she and her son may have helped give doctors a clearer picture. Please keep in mind this is only SWIMs experience and she is only sharing this so that others might be able to form thier own opinions.

[Joe-(5-HTP)]

Originally Posted by savingJenniB

FYI for the older non-abbreviated crowd:
HPPD = Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder
otherwise known as a Flashback.

HPPD is having persisting visual disturbances after the drug has worn off, whereas flashbacks occur in episodes, involving a sudden vivid rush of feelings, emotions, and sensations associated with a previous trip.

On topic:

Although I totally agree that giving LSD To children is immoral and irresponsible to say the least, it is interesting to speculate about what would happen when a mind-amplifying drug is given to children whose minds aren't really that complex... Perhaps the effects would simply not be as strong as there isn't as much to "work with"? hard to say, and I'm sure it will never be tested, but interesting stuff.

[newgrower]

It does make sense that children may be more suspectable to HPPD - seems like this would point more to a rewiring of the brain than damage to particular neurons, correct me if I'm wrong. It's still a fairly rare condition so let's hope that this doesn't happen to this child.

The child would have more likely to die if the mother had left an open bottle of aspirin laying around. I would also be more concerned with her parenting abilities if she was leaving dangerous things lying around in her house. The mother made a poor decision in taking her child into an uncontrolled situation and not being careful enough in who she allowed to watch the child. If she gets a chance to get the child back, I would think that she wouldn't make the same mistake again. I don't think that the endangerment charge is what she's thinking about right now. If she does get the child back, I hope that the changes in the mother's behavior are longer lasting than any effect to the child.

Is it normal to dose candy with LSD? As a parent, this really concerns me. My children know not to drink a beer or take pills that we don't give them and won't break these rules. But you will catch them picking up random pieces of candy they see laying around - they know they shouldn't but that's just candy and kids. This just seems like an accident waiting to happen and is just the kind of thing the anti-drug people love to talk about. So all you swimmers out there, Please don't dose candy with LSD - accidents happen and is this one you want to be responsible for?

[Burnt]

the damage to that childs mind and life of losing his/her mother over this would be far worse then the LSD experience. assuming shes really a decent mother and just happened to make a stupid mistake leaving her kid in a room without realizing acid laced candy was there. if shes abusive etc then its a different story.

t does make sense that children may be more suspectable to HPPD - seems like this would point more to a rewiring of the brain than damage to particular neurons, correct me if I'm wrong. It's still a fairly rare condition so let's hope that this doesn't happen to this child.

makes sense too but then can it more easily be unwired since the kids brain will still go through many changes? anyway i think it would have made the news if this kids symptoms never went away to use it as a scare tactic to keep people away from LSD.

[Lobsang]

Well HPPD would not be a "rewireing" of the brain. It most likely lies in things like membrane permiability and recovery of neurons.
And we have no idea at all how common HPPD is. So much of it would go unreported especially in younger people. I mean it is not like some 14 year old is going to say "Mom...Dad..I tripped on this acid and now I see tracers and halos with all kinds of other crazy shit". I suppose now that HPPD is known they will start trying to figure out how common it is though.

[Burnt]

well LSD is not the type of molecule that could significantly effect membrane permeability. unless thats an indirect effect of some downstream signaling of the 5-HT agonism. what exactly do you mean by recovery of neurons? i know neuroscience to a degree (its a complicated thing no one really gets it but anyway) so you can use complex terms.

i think if a kid did acid and had continual never going away tracers they would eventually tell someone or someone might notice they are acting a bit funny. not to mention acid consumption was was higher in the 60s and 70s and no older people i know of who have done acid ever had such a problem.

no one SWIM knows who's taken LSD ever had this happen. flashbacks and things yes but HPPD no.

[newgrower]

If HPPD is caused by damage to the neurons, a child should recover better than an adult just as a child will recover better from a stroke than an adult.

Even though HPPD has been known about for over 50 years, there are no reliable estimates on the percentage of LSD users who are affected but it does seem to be very rare.

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/loc...tid=32&id=5689

I think that LSD does effect membrane permeability - it's the method by which neurotransmitters effect neuronal firing which would be a downstream effect. I don't know about long term effects of membrane permeability though.

http://www.cs.hmc.edu/~ivl/writing/non_fiction/lsd/index.html

Neurotransmitters can have excitatory or inhibitory effects. If a neurotransmitter is excitatory, it binds to a ligand activated channel in the post-synaptic cell resulting in a change in membrane permeability to ions such as Na+ or K+ resulting in a depolarization which therefore brings the post-synaptic cell closer to threshold. Inhibitory neurotransmitters can work post-synaptically by modifying the membrane permeability of the post-synaptic cell to anions such as Cl- which results in hyperpolarization.

[The Dreamer]

So other than HPPD is there any other damage that this child may face?

[Burnt]

So other than HPPD is there any other damage that this child may face?

Well if he/she is taken away from their parents thats surely could damage the child. the child is probably already seriously upset by the legal consequences going on for the parents.

Other then HPPD the only damage could be the normal types of problems people get from a bad bad trip.

I think if the kid was still hallucinating that would be all over the news. if he was still hallucinating after they aborted his trip in the hospital with thorazine or Risperidone or something similar that would make the news. the media would make a complete shit show out of it, showing that LSD can have permanent brain damage on young children. that hasn't happened.

I think its a crime for the government to seize this child from its parent unless a clear abuse is going on. I think this was a simple accident and nothing bad would have happened if the kid was just left alone with his parents after his vitals were shown to be fine at the hospital. The instant those parents were put in handcuffs this childs life is left to the state. Thats a crime!

Has anyone considered that the child might not have been so upset by the LSD experience but more upset by the problems that came after?! One could easily explain to a child how he was poisoned and explain that hes going to be fine and I am fairly sure the kid would eventually understand.

Burnt added 3 Minutes and 37 Seconds later...

Also about membrane permeability thats a transient temporary change to induce or reduce firing. I don't see how its relevant to dangers of taking LSD or a cause for HPPD.

[Lobsang]

It is said that things like depersonalization and derealization problems occour. I do not know though.

Let me tell you wxactly what happened to SWIM. SWIM was 13 or 14 and took 4 hits of very powerful extracted mescaline in brown powder form. He had a majore full blown trip that proceeded from being the most wonderful orgasmic visual experience of his life to a horrible nightmare of fear and demons in the night. It lasted like 13 hours.

SWIM was cool after this. But then about 4 days after this he began to have ungulating halos of like a fog that would not go away at night with his eyes open or closed in the dark. He dreaded going to bed at night as he was so afraid. He would have to fall asleep with his bedroom door open. In fact he moved from the his third floor bedroom to an empty second floor bedroom near his siblings as he was so scared at night.

Then SWIM began during the day to get trails and afterimages. Like repeaters as one oved their hand in front of their face. And when going from a lighted area to a dark room his vision would nor recover and he saw images for a long time taking forever to adapt to the darkness. Like if SWIM looked at a light bulb and then went into the dark the bulb would stay forever in his head and morph into all kinds of shapes. He also became hyper-aware of things like "floaters". There were other things as well.

Now SWIM was constantly in a state of dispair. He wondered if he would ever be "normal" again. He was in turmoil all of his waking hours. He stopped taking any drugs and all his friends at school were perplexed at the fact that SWIM would not take drugs. This went on for like 2 years. Then for some reason SWIM stopped having the problems. Now either SWIM adapted to the new perceptions or they went away. SWIM began smoking pot again and taking Quaaludes but no psychedelics. Then around age 19 or so he went back to psychedelics using them at high frequence and in large doses but he never had an HPPD issue again. So in SWIM's mind in his twenties he was less afraid of HPPD because he was more mature and kind of though it would be cool to have it. But at 13 or 14 he took things much more seriously and was more fragile. But SWIM was unable to induce "HPPD" when he was older.

Now I am not trying to make a point by saying this. I am just rerleating what happened to SWIM.

Lobsang added 3 Minutes and 2 Seconds later...

Also about membrane permeability thats a transient temporary change to induce or reduce firing. I don't see how its relevant to dangers of taking LSD or a cause for HPPD.</STRONG>

Well maybe these drugs in some way can alter the gates of the neuron.

[ADVOR]

IMO, children can not be in the right state of mind to experience any drug, especially a psychedelic. Not until a child evolves into an adult can one truly appreciate drug usage. Otherwise, they don't know what they are doing! When SWIM took LSD for the first time, he knew damn well what he was doing. He was ready to trip, and that's what he did. Children don't truly understand the concept of these drugs and nor should they until they become of age.

[newgrower]

^I don't think anybody is arguing that children should take LSD. It's a question of if there is any permanent damage is done by accidental ingestion and if this damage is greater than separation from parents.

[Burnt]

Yea no way I'm in no way saying that LSD should be given to kids nor is it trivial when a small child takes it. But yea my point is mentioned above.

Lobsang although I never experience the long lasting HPPD that SWIY did. I realize that this type of flashback thing did happen more when SWIM was younger and doing acid then now. Interesting and yes it probably might be correlated with age.

Well maybe these drugs in some way can alter the gates of the neuron.

LSD interacts with a number of receptors 5-HT types and by interacting with this receptor neuron gates get effected yes. Its the downstream effect. But the same kinds of things happen with regular neurotransmitters its how neurons work.

[Lobsang]

LSD interacts with a number of receptors 5-HT types and by interacting with this receptor neuron gates get effected yes. Its the downstream effect. But the same kinds of things happen with regular neurotransmitters its how neurons work.

Well yes. My suspicion is that the neuron becomes hyper-excited and fires. Maybe has a lower threshold for fireing. What I find interesting is the SWIM had significant long term visual phenomena at night with his eyes closed. Not organized visions but these halos that would moved and drow and such. I offten enterytaines the thought that this could be some type of sensorial epilepsy. Like in the visual cortex or someplace else that produced it. I dunno. I am just speculating.

[The Dreamer]

Yes I agree. Why chance giving it to a child? Until they can make their own choices on such matters others shouldn't be flippant with the choices made on their behalf. I was just wondering if we should expect to see any real damage done to this child from the one instance. And if not then I don't see why custody should be taken. Accidents happen in drugless homes; can we not imagine that they can also happen in homes with LSD in them? I imagine the mother has learned her lesson and showed great concern for her child during the incident.

[Lobsang]

Originally Posted by The Dreamer

Yes I agree. Why chance giving it to a child? Until they can make their own choices on such matters others shouldn't be flippant with the choices made on their behalf. I was just wondering if we should expect to see any real damage done to this child from the one instance. And if not then I don't see why custody should be taken. Accidents happen in drugless homes; can we not imagine that they can also happen in homes with LSD in them? I imagine the mother has learned her lesson and showed great concern for her child during the incident.

Well yes. I mean this was not a case od child rape or child beating and severe neglect. It was an accident for God's sakd. I say keep the family together. Times have changed. You know many years ago when marijauana was grown heavely in certain California towns whole families worked in the business of growing and processing pot including kids. There is a good book called "Cash Crop" about the pot growning days in California. In that book I believe it tells about how kids showed up at school with Pot in their hair from manicuring it. The parents were simply asked to check their kid's hair before school. But times have changed.

All you basically have to have happen if you take drugs is to be reported to child protective services. This can culminate in them taking your kids. At least for a while. All a judge has to hear is "Drugs and kids" and a SWIMMER can be in a bad situation. It ain't the good old days.

[Bajeda]

According to a police affidavit, Freas and her boyfriend took her son to a party at an apartment. They went outside, leaving the boy inside with another adult.

Chris Van Deusen, spokesman for the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services, said the boy will be placed in a foster home after he's released from the hospital.

She took her kid to a party at someone else's apartment it sounds like.

I don't know what the circumstances of the party were, whether there were other kids there, or whether or not there was lots of alcohol or other things unsuitable for kids, but it doesn't sound like she is the one who left the LSD candies sitting out there. Maybe she just left the kid to run around inside and went outside herself, or maybe she made sure someone inside was watching over the kid, who knows.

Without more details than the article is giving, it seems harsh that the kid will now grow up in a foster home because his mother associated with someone dumb enough to leave lsd laced candies out. There is certainly more to the story though, so I won't judge.


Edit: And this may help explain the charges better.

His mother, Ashli Rene Freas, 22, was arrested for endangering a child. Investigators say she waited for more than an hour before her friends called 911 to get her son some help.

However, the person who had drugs around in this case wasn't the mom as far as we know. When we spoke with Freas on the phone, she said she didn't know the exact address of the party, but did give police directions to the apartment. While that investigation continues, Freas waits to see if she'll get her son back.
The boy is recovering at Brackenridge Hospital. Child Protective Services has temporary custody of the boy.

[The Dreamer]

Ah Lobsang, my kat is young and has never seen the good old days. He wishes he had; perhaps some day before he dies he'll see a new day come.

[Metomni]

SWIY could start a revolution. Must all come crashing down before it can be built back into grandeur.

[The Dreamer]

My kat wants to see a revolution but they tried that in the 60's. Maybe if it doesn't have to come crashing down. Maybe it can walk right in the front door sit down and watch TV with mom and dad. That'd be a revolution that might stick.

[psyche]

Maybe the kids are more adaptible to HPPD. If the walls have been breathing from the very beginning and hands always left trails, it might just be a little more beautiful world to live in. That is not to say it's not irresponsible to feed little childeren acid. As said above, I'm very doubtful that they can make up anything meaningful of the trip. The world through the 3 years old's eyes might already look very trippy; talk about ego-death, they don't get very much out of it. It might be a single most enlightening effect for adults, but childeren don't even perceive the world as divided in two, me and the outer world, 'til they're two years old if my memory serves me correct. So it's anywa a chain of events only for them.

There seems to be a lot of talk about long-term damages, but as cautious as I would be about giving small childeren acid, I think they are quite able to get over bad trips and learn from them. I don't know if giving LSD to a three-year-old child does any good, but maybe at the age of ten. It'd be much more reasonable to argue if we had some studies thrown in, since it's so easy to estimate the long-term damage to childeren using their emotionality as a measure.

[Panthers007]

Bongo was at a school party from his highly alternative-education high-school back yonder in the mid-70's. A certain prankster and general goofball brought some vanilla-wafers he had drenched with LSD. And Bozo gave one to the 12 year old son of the homeowner. It was not the right move.

The crew picked up Mr. Bozo and threw him into his car and ordered him to leave at once - not return. The more intelligent among the party took turns watching out for the kid, and explaining what was happening. He was calm and had a good experience. But the overwhelming consensus was that this was an absolutely stupid thing to have done. This kid had no clue what LSD was. Fortunately the older hippies were there to handle and all was well.

For Crimminy's sake - don't give this stuff to kids. Wait until they have some age and ask questions before considering them as candidates for psychedelics. Let them ask and wonder what all the fuss is about. After you have swallowed it is not the right set & setting to start asking these questions.

[Lobsang]

If the walls have been breathing from the very beginning and hands always left trails, it might just be a little more beautiful world to live in.

It can be quite more than the walls breathing and leaving trails. It can interfere with being able to read, meking words move around on the page and other stuff as well. It is not something that a person wants to have. Believe me. It is not just a lateral shift in perception. It gets pretty fucked up to lie in bed at night and the lights in ones head will not go out. And trails after your hands sound cool and all but there comes a time when enough is enough and one wants to touch down into a more solid level of awareness. It gets pretty annoying when one is out on a sunny day and they see reflections of the sun on the water and then they leave the beach and those reflerctions are still in their visual field and they morph into things and they won't go away. It sucks. That is what SWIM says.

And we have no idea how often it happens. Certainly not a lot of the time. So it is simply a risk of taking acid. I mean everything one does in life carries risk. But my point is that unless you have had it one cannot understand how messed up it can be. It is not like "all cool" and like tripping all the time. It is a real bother. That's what SWIM says.