Culture - his friend died from lsd (Drug Myth)

[mugsirhc]

last night at a friends house swim met his friends
cousin who is 25 who knew somebody that had
a "whole shitload" (he said he dealt it) of lsd in his
pockets which became wet from running and it all
soaked into his legs causing death... so he claims.
cause he KNEW him(?) wtf? is all she could think
knowing that lsd is less toxic than vitamin E by
weight and having seen the exact scene in the
movie SLC Punk. swims friends cousin became
annoyed when they said it never happened it was
actually just a movie, also adding the tidbit about
vitamin E. HE KNEW HIM... so he has the 100%
certainty cause he knew him.... swim is so confused
cause he seemed like a nice guy other than that..
he didnt know shit about lsd tho, some kids were
tripping and he asked whats it do to ya? although
he had experienced mushrooms he didnt know about cid
SO WHAT THE F$$$ up with that ? is he a moron? liar?
did the kid get kidnapped by the government and
thats the story they told the newspapers? LOL
swim just dont understand how someone could believe
such ridiculous nonsense.. isnt the LD-50 like 2 and a
half grams of pure lsd?
i dont expect a good answer cause who would know...
but i would appreciate a herumpf of aggreement that its bs indeed

mugsirhc added 0 Minutes and 41 Seconds later...

oh man didnt realize it was that long.. hope someone reads it.. der

[Alfa]

Yup. pure bullshit.

[mugsirhc]

swim doesnt understand HOW that story got made up
(ironically just like the movie) for this dude to believe
it... he knew somehwat about fungus but never saw e
or acid before that night and never done it.. Its just
weird that he says he knows him, i wonder if it could
be anti-drug propaganda gone extreme. kill one to save
a thousand so to speak?hahahah i dont know. no wonder
people are either down to do acid cause they hear it
effs you up so bad and they want to get effd up or
theyre scared and will only do e or shrooms cause of the
bad rap of lsd

[MrHawke]

Hi mugsirhc,

Though with the current legal status of LSD in the US, people are want to believe stories such as Swim's friend's cousin's, the simple fact is, this wouldn't have happened for several reasons.

Firstly, the threshold dose of LSD in the body is less than 50 micrograms. If you don't know much about LSD, this might actually make the story seem more realistic, but really it doesn't: a single gram of LSD is about 10,000 average recreational doses - why would any dealer carry that much on him at once? I don't think many would feel safe carrying $100 in their pockets, let alone $50,000 worth of drugs.

Secondly, due to this exceptionally low active dosage, LSD is not sold in crystalline form on the street, but adsorped onto paper "tabs". If said person was manufacturing LSD as well, then they may have had it in crystalline form, but then we'd have to deal with problem number 3...

... Which is the extreme complexity of manufacturing LSD in the first place. This is not some one-pot mix and heat synthesis going on here, it involves several, highly-sensitive reactions which require inert gas shielding and the absense of light to proceed in any quantifiable yield. Moreover, LSD itself is a light-sensitive, heat-sensitive, air-sensitive molecule: there is no way that anybody who went through all the drama of synthesising a gram or more of LSD would then carry it around in his pocket, except perhaps, as a pH-buffered solution in an air-tight, amber glass vial under nitrogen... yeah, maybe not.

Then there is the fact that LSD is incredibly non-toxic. The only person who is known to have died from actual LSD overdose was a man in 1974, who injected intravenously over 320mg - 3200 oral doses - apparently believing it to be methamphetamine. Even then, there was some doubt of whether it was actually the LSD which caused his death: the man's body was found over a month after his last sighting, naked in an abandoned farm building in Kentucky, and it possible hypothermia was a contributing factor.

But even if you do believe that a highly-knowledgable, university-educated LSD chemist would knowingly go around with over $50,000 worth of an air, light and heat-sensitive drug in his pocket, unsealed, whilst going for a run (wtf), what about the whole soaking into his leg thing?

Well, though a small amount of LSD could be absorbed through the skin, LSD in its crystalline form is not very lipid soluble at all, so only a tiny fraction of the drug would have been absorbed through the skin. Enough to have a trip? Certainly. But if insufflating lines of LSD doesn't kill you (8 people presented to hospital in the 70's having done this; the most any one of them needed was a saline drip to restore their fluids), getting it on your skin isn't going to!

Hope this helps

Vincent

Reputation Comments on this post:

	altho i alrready know a lot that was quite informative
	very nicely laid out

[purplehaze]

My understanding is that Albert Hoffman accidentally took lsd his first time which was absorbed through he skin, but then it was later argued that it got absorbed through his eye, mouth or something else by him touching an orifice which would allow more absorption than just skin alone. So absorption through the skin would not be that great, and would not be rapid enough to cause death in any case?

Maybe I am completely wrong, but this is just what I've learned over the years.

[mugsirhc]

unles swiy had a lot of open wounds
and took a bath in potent lsd solution...
haha who would mind that tho?

[Chili]

Total bullshit because swim knows a monkey who eated ten trips to hide it from police officer and he was f*cked up for 3 days and his brain and body are smashed for life, he almost became an invalid.He is well known in swims city because of that.

[purplehaze]

Originally Posted by Chili

Total bullshit because swim knows a monkey who eated ten trips to hide it from police officer and he was f*cked up for 3 days and his brain and body are smashed for life, he almost became an invalid.He is well known in swims city because of that.

It probably was never proven to be LSD that was ingested.

[Chili]

Oh it is proven, after that 3 days of teror in swiys head doctors sad that he will have personality and brain damage for life.Today swiy can hardly talk right.

[EndThisDisgustingDystopia]

Very interesting if LSD was the main contributing factor.

[Chili]

Swim don't understand why not, does swiy want to tell swim that lsd is not doing any harm like mdma, speed and other stuff?Yeah right.

Chili added 9 Minutes and 20 Seconds later...

Every drug on earth is doing harm to your body, some more some less, some faster some slower.And remember that lsd is made from substances of nuclear head poison.

Reputation Comments on this post:

unfounded rubbish

[MrHawke]

Hi Chili,

If it was indeed only LSD that was ingested, then this case would certainly be of interest. As I said in my post, LSD has only ever been attributed to one death in its entire history - a mind-blowingly huge overdose, at that - so if this person truly suffered major health problems from 10 trips worth of LSD, it would be of great medical importance.

Unfortunately, though, as with so many drugs on the street, the likelihood that the LSD was contaminated with something far more toxic - or indeed, if the drug was in any other form than the small paper tabs I mentioned, that the "LSD" was not even LSD at all - is quite high. With drug legislation the way it is, and the market driven by criminals by definition (even if many of them are not tied up with gangs and the like), there is really no guarantee that any drug bought on the street is pure, and society is paying for it in far greater ways than the government would like them to think.

That said, everyone is different. LSD is a powerful hallucinogen, and even if it is for all intents and purposes completely non-toxic in vivo, the sheer psychological experience can certainly be overwhelming. I guess it serves as a reminder to us all that whatever drugs we make a part of our life, restricted or not, the implications are far-reaching, and even reasonably safe substances can be dangerous if they are approached the wrong way.

Vincent

Reputation Comments on this post:

Well reasoned, rational and, above all polite: A Perfect response to the individual in question

[Jatelka]

Originally Posted by Chili

And remember that lsd is made from substances of nuclear head poison.

Ergot Alkaloids weren't present in nuclear war heads last time I checked!

Statements like these are myth-making and rumour-mongering that cannot be tolerated, as they lead to confusion and fear, neither of which are conducive to making an informed decision

LSD is remarkably non-toxic (as stated already). In large clinical studies, there is no evidence that users of LSD are any more likely to develop psychotic symptoms (or "have their brain destroyed/end up in an asylum/have a permanent trip") than those who have never taken LSD (Cohen, 1960-something)

[MrHawke]

Hi Chili,

Originally Posted by Chili

Swim don't understand why not, does swiy want to tell swim that lsd is not doing any harm like mdma, speed and other stuff?Yeah right.

No, certainly LSD can be psychologically overwhelming to some people, and taking 10 hits of it at once is indeed likely to lead to a bad trip, especially for the uninitiated. But no investigation into LSD, either in a clinical setting or as a result of drug-related hospitalisation, has shown LSD to be toxic in the biological sense. And this is the point I'm making: if indeed your friend Swim was biologically affected by LSD, it would be of great interest to the medical community. But given the data we have, and how little I know about Swim's experiences, it seems much more likely to me that either:

a) the LSD was contaminated - it sucks, but LSD is a restricted substance after all, and unscrupulous dealers are renouned for passing off drugs as pure when they are actually not;

b) the "LSD" wasn't actually LSD at all - I don't mean disrespect to Swim, but I know several people who out of a lack of knowledge have taken drugs thinking them to be something else;

or, simply that c) the psychological effects of the trip had resulting physiological effects unrelated to the actual biological effect of LSD. I drink several cups of coffee a day, and have never once had major side effects, but I have been hospitalised for hyperventilation before, simply because I was getting stressed out in my job and it got to me. The mind is a powerful thing, Chili; its power should not be underestimated.

Originally Posted by Chili

Every drug on earth is doing harm to your body, some more some less, some faster some slower.

Indeed. But on the scale of things, LSD is perhaps the least toxic of any currently scheduled substance worldwide. Swim took 10 trips of LSD at once and had a bad time indeed, but if he'd taken 10 trips worth of many other drugs, the effects would be far worse. Even 10 standard doses of paracetamol (= acetaminophen), an over-the-counter substance in most countries, would be fatal within 24 hours if untreated; over half of all cases of acute liver failure in the US are caused by the drug every year.

Originally Posted by Chili

And remember that lsd is made from substances of nuclear head poison.

Chili, that's just not true.

Vincent

[Lobsang]

But if insufflating lines of LSD doesn't kill you (8 people presented to hospital in the 70's having done this; the most any one of them needed was a saline drip to restore their fluids),

Actually what I heard was that a couple had to be intubated. Now I am sure nobody died from absorbing LSD through their skin. But a high enough dose can kill you and can be very neurologically disabling. However this needs to be a massive dose. I mean they have managed to kill an elephant with LSD while "scientists" were attempting to drive it into a sexual frenzy.

[Bajeda]

Originally Posted by Lobsang

Actually what I heard was that a couple had to be intubated. Now I am sure nobody died from absorbing LSD through their skin. But a high enough dose can kill you and can be very neurologically disabling. However this needs to be a massive dose. I mean they have managed to kill an elephant with LSD while "scientists" were attempting to drive it into a sexual frenzy.

All were back to baseline within twelve hours of admittance, though respiratory assistance was required for three of the people. One refused treatment and simply left!

You can read more about this incident in the article stored in the handy archive. The individual case reports don't sound very pleasant! Worst trip you could possibly have no doubt.

Coma, Hyperthermia and Bleeding Associated with Massive LSD Overdose a Report of Eight Cases (1974)


Keep in mind that the recorded serum levels of LSD in these individuals ranged from 2.1 to 26 nanograms per ml! The one with 26ng per ml also had cocaine in her system, though surprisingly she had very few complications and wasn't in nearly as much danger as some of the others with lesser amounts in their system.

[Lobsang]

Keep in mind that the recorded serum levels of LSD in these individuals ranged from 2.1 to 26 nanograms per ml! The one with 26ng per ml also had cocaine in her system, though surprisingly she had very few complications and wasn't in nearly as much danger as some of the others with lesser amounts in their system.

Well different people will react somewhat differently. However even though LSD is very safe. If you give a massive does you will disable the nervous system. The patient will go into all kinds of wacky UMN phenomena. And you can kill them. Everything will go wacky. And I cannot prove it but I think before this happens the will start getting hyper-reflexia and start throwing positive Babinski's. The person will be a compl;ete neuro-scramble. But like I say this is with really high doses. For example in our friend the elephant..

"Five minutes after the injection he trumpeted, collapsed, fell heavily onto his right side, defecated, and went into status epilepticus. The limbs on the left side were hyperextended and held stiffly out from the body; the limbs on the right side were drawn up in partial flexion; there were tremors throughout. The eyes were closed and showed a spasm of the orbicularis occuli; the eyeballs were turned sharply to the left, with markedly dilated pupils. The mouth was open, but breathing was extremely labored and stertorous, giving the impression of high respiratory obstruction due to laryngeal spasm. The tongue, which had been bitten, was cyanotic. The picture was that of a tonic left-sided seizure in which, mild clonic movements were present."
-- West LJ, Pierce CM, Thomas WD. Science, 1962, 1100-1103.

What I find perplexing is where these "scientists" derived the premise from that giving an elephant a massive dose of LSD would cause the animal to enter into a "mating frenzy"?

[Bajeda]

Read the case reports in the article I linked to for detailed description of physiological and externally visible psychological symptoms of extremely high dose LSD OD.


And lol, I never knew why an Elephant would be given so much LSD in the first place (aside from mistakenly basing the dose on weight), but that would be a pretty silly reason.

[Chili]

As I know his health is damaged in way of personality desorder, he is retard like he was born retarded, he will never be the same guy again and normal person like he was before.So 10 trips at once are defenetly the cause of that mind state.That was 5 years ago and he's still f*cked so...i don't know what to think.Everybody always sad to me don't fuck with lsd it's very dangerous drug.So swim can eat trips every wekend for two years and he will always be normal...?Hard to belive but maybe it is true.

[Lobsang]

Read the case reports in the article I linked to for detailed description of physiological and externally visible psychological symptoms of extremely high dose LSD OD.

Well thry going up by 5 times that dose and injecting it. See if the patient does not go into full neuro-scramble. But it was interesting. I was aware of the temperture changes. But I was unaware that patients bleed.

[Bajeda]

Originally Posted by Chili

As I know his health is damaged in way of personality desorder, he is retard like he was born retarded, he will never be the same guy again and normal person like he was before.So 10 trips at once are defenetly the cause of that mind state.That was 5 years ago and he's still f*cked so...i don't know what to think.Everybody always sad to me don't fuck with lsd it's very dangerous drug.So swim can eat trips every wekend for two years and he will always be normal...?Hard to belive but maybe it is true.

Definitely be very cautious about using psychedelics if you have any history of mental illness in your family. Some people seem to be inherently prone to psychotic breakdowns on psychedelics, and it seems that these people are prone to developing schizophrenia or similar mental problems without drugs aiding the process too. Other people can use / abuse these substances to ridiculous degrees, taking insanely large doses or dosing daily for extended periods of time without suffering much in the way of consequences.

I would say that LSD is an incredibly safe substance, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't exhibit a degree of caution and use it responsibly. This is especially true if your family history suggests that you may be at risk for having a bad reaction to drugs like LSD.

[Frond]

Originally Posted by Chili

Swim don't understand why not, does swiy want to tell swim that lsd is not doing any harm like mdma, speed and other stuff?Yeah right.

Chili added 9 Minutes and 20 Seconds later...

Every drug on earth is doing harm to your body, some more some less, some faster some slower.And remember that lsd is made from substances of nuclear head poison.

Eh, tabs can contain as much as 300 mics each, and in some rare cases even more. If someone takes 10 tabs at once, to avoid a potential drug bust no less, then they've just ingested as much as 3000 mics under some of the worst circumstances possible. It's no wonder that their trip went as bad as it did, and had the consequences it did.

Let's put it this way. We can agree that Tylenol (Paracetamol/Acetaminophen) is fairly safe when used within correct dosage, right? If someone takes 5-10 times the normal dosage of Tylenol, like said someone took 5-10 times the normal dosage of LSD (human saturation point of LSD is usually about 500 mics, but don't quote me since this is from memory), there is a good change they'll die from liver failure.

LSD is remarkably non-toxic, compared to even common over the counter drugs.

LSD is a tool, much like a screwdriver is a tool. You can use it to turn screws, and you can also shove it into your eye. Don't blame the tool when someone gets hurt because they do something stupid with it.

Also, I'm far from a psychiatrist, but doesn't severe mental trauma, like a 3-day psychedelic nightmare could be, sometimes cause these kinds of symptoms, which can also last a very long time? The chemical toxicity of the drug itself may not have been responsible for the damage that took place.

[ADVOR]

I would have said, "Yeah, that is a good movie!". *cough pathological liar

[Songcycle67]

SWIM knows many many people who have survived upwards of 3,000 micrograms and went on to live completely normal lives. Although they had a fucking whomper headache the next day and they were "out to lunch" for about 16 hours, they were pretty happy with the results--no brain damage, no retardation.

LSD can cause psychosis in some people, but I'd be hard-pressed to believe that a relatively small dose (and 3,000+ is still a relatively small dose as compared to the LD50) can cause a permanent retardation of mental skills. Furthermore, due to the lack of education about these substances in the field of medicine; most doctors aren't familiar with things like HPPD, which are real disorders that wear off after a time. Often times disorders like this and small changes in functionality (catatonia for a few days being one extreme example) could be viewed as permanent psychosis. I've heard of a few HPPD patients being diagnosed with blatent psychosis and locked up in mental wards. Many doctors don't even know about HPPD, nevermind other symptoms of LSD psychosis or how to treat it properly. If you go to the hospital and complain about symptoms of LSD use and tell the doctors you've taken a psychedelic, 9 times out of 10 you'll get stamped with "psychosis." Unfortunately hearing that you have psychosis (was there ever a more broad term?) whilest under the influence of LSD can actually trigger major psychosis and catatonia and a lot of other nasty things.

If anything, I'd say the guy who took "ten trips" at once may have some psychosis resulting from repressed memories--at large doses LSD tends to dig deep into the unconscious and subconscious mind and dig out all the juicy dirt you have on yourself. Sadly, this could probably be cured with a few LSD sessions with a psychiatrist in a controlled environment. Or sans the LSD would probably work too.

[Jatelka]

Posts about hppd moved here...

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sho...highlight=hppd