Effects - Yopo/Syrian Rue - Lime or BS?

[beatnickmanduder]

Swim just got 14 grams of yopo and 114 grams of syrian rue seeds. Swim has a two part question:

1) Have any other swimmers tried yopo made with the baking soda or with the lime, and if so, which is better overall?

2) Would making a syrian rue tea/smoke some rue before inhaling help bring out any of the other DMT compounds in it?

Gracias amigos

[Salvinorin A]

1. Most people believe that lime is much better, but some experience reports show success with using baking soda...however, these usually also talk about a huge amount of pain in the nose and other side effects.

2. Syrian Rue might help, but based on the dosage that's usually taken with yopo, there are too few dmt. 5-meo-dmt alkaloids in the seeds to actually notice anything different about the trip. They syrian rue would most likely overpower the other dmt alkaloids.

Sal-A

[beatnickmanduder]

Originally Posted by Salvinorin A

2. Syrian Rue might help, but based on the dosage that's usually taken with yopo, there are too few dmt. 5-meo-dmt alkaloids in the seeds to actually notice anything different about the trip. They syrian rue would most likely overpower the other dmt alkaloids.
Sal-A

Hm, interesting...but the rue certainly wouldn't hurt the trip, would it? Or in other words, would swiy be willing to give that sort of thing a try?

[Salvinorin A]

SWIM doesn't think it would hurt the trip.....but personally swim has found that he can feel the rue's presence. It's kind of a sedating/nauseas presence. While it wouldn't ruin the trip, swim thinks it would be a little less enjoyable.

Sal-A

[69Ron]

Pure harmine is better than rue if you don't like the sedating qualities of harmaline. Rue contains both harmine and harmaline. Harmaline is much more sedating than harmine.

Adding lime does more than just freebase the alkaloids. 5-HO-DMT (bufotenine) is usually the main alkaloid in the snuff (although SWIM once had real Yopo with only DMT in it) because most Yopo is actually Vilca (a difference cheaper species often sold as Yopo).

5-HO-DMT has a very high pKa of 9.67 (at pH 9.67 50% is protonated and 50% is not). Blood has a pH of 7.4. That means that 5-HO-DMT has a hard time staying freebased once it enters the blood because its pKa is over 2 points higher than the pH of human blood. At pH 7.4 over 99% of the 5-HO-DMT will rapidly become protonated. 5-HO-DMT must be deprotonated (freebased) before it can easily pass through the nasal walls and also must be deprotonated to enter the brain. This is where lime comes in. The nasal pH is about 7, and so it is too low for 5-HO-DMT to easily enter the body through the nasal walls. To keep 5-HO-DMT freebased in the nose, a little lime is added, enough to keep the nasal walls at about pH 9-10. This helps the 5-HO-DMT pass through the nasal walls as a freebase compound. If the nasal walls where at pH 9.67 (the pKa 5-HO-DMT) then up to 50% of the of 5-HO-DMT would be in freebase form and able to pass through the nasal walls immediately. This way it enters the blood faster and gets to the brain faster. If you took it without lime, the 5-HO-DMT would very slowly absorb through the nasal walls (less than 1% at a time, rather that up to 50% at a time) and rapidly get protonated and stay in the body longer producing more side effects. If you used baking soda instead of lime, the most you could bring the pH of the nose to would be 8.3. At that pH more than 90% of the 5-HO-DMT would be protonated so only about 10% of it could enter the nose at a time. So that’s why it’s not as effective as using lime. The trick is to get as much into the brain as fast as possible before it becomes protonated. Protonated 5-HO-DMT can’t enter the brain at all, instead it stays in the body and causes side effects. The longer it stays in the body, the more side effects you get, and the less psychoactive it is.

To sum it up:

5-HO-DMT (bufotenine) has a high pKa of 9.67. Because that’s over 2 points higher than the blood’s pH, to make 5-HO-DMT (bufotenine) enter the brain fast enough to be effective, it needs to be in freebase form at the point of entry. That means the pH at the point of entry should be 9.67 or higher. Any lower and bodily side effects increase, and psychoactivity decreases.

The right amount of lime can bring the pH of the nose up to the ideal ph of 9.67 or higher allow over 50% of the 5-HO-DMT to absorb as freebase at a time. This decreases absorption time, increases psychoactivity and reduces bodily side effects.

Baking soda brings the pH of the nose only to 8.3, allowing less than 10% of the 5-HO-DMT to absorb as freebase at a time. This increases absorption time, decreases psychoactivity and increases side effects.

Using no base keeps the nose at about pH 7, allowing only 1% of the 5-HO-DMT to absorb as freebase at a time. This dramatically increases absorption time, dramatically decreases psychoactivity and dramatically increases side effects.

[beatnickmanduder]

Originally Posted by 69Ron

5-HO-DMT (bufotenine) is usually the main alkaloid in the snuff (although SWIM once had real Yopo with only DMT in it) because most Yopo is actually Vilca (a difference cheaper species often sold as Yopo).

Just how can Swim tell whether the seeds are authentic or not? Could swim tell by pictures, or by any other simple means?