Why do some people on Psychedelics jump from heights?

[Alfa]

In the Netherlands there regularly are tourists jumping from buildings or even a bridge. This results in death now and then. Similar events resulted in the ban of magic mushrooms in the UK and Ireland.

These events may just be suicide. Does anyone have an idea what is going on with these people?

I can't imagine one would want to jump from a building in a trip. I need to understand, because soon magic mushrooms will be illegal here because of this.

There are stories about LSD, that people thought they could fly. I do not believe that to be true, but I wonder if these stories come from similar events.

Reputation Comments on this post:

starting a thread that IS my life's latest chapter

[Stephenwolf]

I think it may be depth perception issues, or a belief that after a high enough dose they may just feel so far removed from real life that things that would normally hurt in real life wouldn't now, or similar drunk peoples lack of Inhibitions its that the risk of the situation isn't properly considered when compared to how it might be fun...I think the last most, Unknowns have jumped from roofs whilst on LSD and while on alcohol but never would while sober because its a near 15 foot drop, because it seemed more fun and quicker to get from sitting on the shed to getting to the ground, the risk of the situation just didn't occur in the unknowns mind.

[purplehaze]

Maybe there facing there fears?

Probably due to depression/suicide as mentioned, and the ego id and super ego has no ability to communicate a moral decision because of the alteration, maybe death seems like an option that they are wanting to take not understanding the full consequences. Or maybe they do.

I have no idea.

[podge]

I highly doubt its because think they can fly. Most likely its an inexperienced user, without proper supervision , going through a horrendous bad trip where they are so uncomfortable or disorientated in their experience that they jump/fall from confusion or believe that jumping will ease their suffering.

[newgrower]

Swim kind of jumped (or rather fell) off a building once while on shrooms and drunk. But he thinks the alcohol had a lot more to do with it than the shrooms. He was just climbing up the side of the building for the hell of it and thought he could make a jump to a ledge that proved to be a little farther than he had thought.

He still has a steel plate and several surgical screws in his foot for that one. Don't try that one at home.

[Ontherooftops]

The overpowering physical sensations of a psychedelic to a new user can inspire a need to "get out" (whether this be of their surroundings, clothing, skin or life) in certain individuals. That combined with the thoughts that could pass through ones head while tripping just leads to an infinate number of reasons why one might fling themselves off a high place.

"jesus, I just can't take all these cars and their incessant demonic mechanical noises, I bet falling from that bridge would feel amazing"

"I wonder what death feels like?"

or the classic
"Ohnoitookapsychedelicdrugandivegonetotallybonkers "
leading to
"atleast if i jump out that window I won't feel that way"

I don't really know, but situations like the above always seemed within the realm of possibilities for an individual under the influece of psychedelics.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good examples man.

[sylenth]

in another dimension... one should'nt be on other 'levels' or walking amongst trams in amsterdam for example. smurf's mate on the forum MISSINGFET was neally hit by a tram in amsterdam on shrooms he was'nt handling a full box of the strongest available shrooms as well as the smurfs were & smurf just managed to grab him by his sleeve & pull him as they were crossing the road cos he wass falling behind. he jumped quite high from the fright & shock it was close.

inexperienced users clearly seems to be the problem. ketamine, high doses of lsd, mushrooms or any drug for that matter should be done with caution & knowledge & friends who are wise & experienced on the situations at hand especially when on holiday in unfimiliar surroundings. personally smurf questions the believing they can fly, mostly probably believing they walking over the gate in to the garden or club or hoar house cos they 'cant find the latch' & oops..............now i'm flying. splat.

[Alfa]

I have a theory that may just as well be bullshit: what if 90% of the people jumping, where on a specific anti-depressant or anti-psychotic?

Reputation Comments on this post:

Indeed. What if? But no, that's just being paranoid, isn't it? I'm sure its just that *bad* drugs that are causing the p...

[podge]

Originally Posted by Alfa

I have a theory that may just as well be bullshit: what if 90% of the people jumping, where on a specific anti-depressant or anti-psychotic?

Its not impossible. What if the common link was tobacco smoking ?

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sho...garette+mental

[Alfa]

Very unlikely. That would make a jumper out of any magic mushroom user.

[podge]

Originally Posted by Alfa

Very unlikely. That would make a jumper out of any magic mushroom user.

Very unlikely but not impossible. And not all magic mushroom users are cigarette smokers, and not all cigarette smokers have mental illnesses.

[Richard_smoker]

alfa, podge...very interesting theories....very interesting, indeed.

I've looked deeper into this idea--that the jumping is, quite simply a form of SUICIDE...someone please correct me if this is presumptuous of me.

Actually, while looking into Alfa's idea about theapparent antidepressant-Hallucinogen-suicide connection, I was surprised to find another potential confounding variable--the nicotine/smoking-suicide connection (as pointed out by podge).

This makes sense as anti-depressant drugs are used for smoking cessation (Welbutrin/bupropion in particular), and apparently Welbutrin itself (along with SSRI's) is associated with an increased rate of teenage suicides.

My preliminary quickie-search thru Pub-Med turned up the possible smoking link almost instantly--within the first 30 or so hits...searching for simply one word: "suicide."

Current smoking is reliably associated with suicide both in case-control and cohort studies. The three most plausible (but relatively untested) explanations for the association are that
1. smokers have pre-existing conditions that increase their risk for suicide,
2. smoking causes painful and debilitating conditions that might lead to suicide, and
3. smoking decreases serotonin and monoamine oxidase levels.

Stopping smoking appears to lead to major depression in some smokers; thus, it could induce suicide; however, smoking cessation has not been associated with suicide in the few studies available. Regulatory agencies have stated bupropion, rimonabant and varenicline appear to be associated with suicide; however, the data for these statements have not been presented in sufficient detail to assess their validity.
- Smoking and suicide: A brief overview. Drug Alcohol Depend. 2008 Aug 1. [Epub ahead of print]

One study (thanks Alfa) compared 15 teenage suicide victims's brains to 15 similar teenage (non-suicide) brains...the comparison was made by looking at the SPECIFIC SITES where LSD BINDS! (the "5-HT(2A) receptor"...might as well be called the LSD-Receptor!)
These researchers found...

significantly higher [(125)I]LSD binding in the prefrontal cortex and greater protein expression and mRNA levels in the prefrontal cortex and hippocampus but not in the nucleus accumbens of suicide victims, compared with normal subjects. ... The evidence indicates higher levels of 5-HT(2A) receptor, protein, and mRNA expression in the prefrontal cortex and hippocampus, which have been implicated in emotion, stress, and cognition.
There was no higher level in the nucleus accumbens, which has been implicated in drug dependence and craving. Our findings suggest that a higher level of 5-HT(2A) receptors may be one of the neurobiological abnormalities associated with teenage suicide.
Higher expression of serotonin 5-HT(2A) receptors in the postmortem brains of teenage suicide victims. Am J Psychiatry. 2002 Mar;159(3):419-29

The conclusion drawn for THIS study is that these 15 teenagers who committed suicide actually demonstrated higher levels of the LSD RECEPTOR (5-HT2A) in the prefrontal cortex & hippocampus--emotion, stress, cognition centers...and NOT in the so-called 'pleasure zones'.

Maybe the jumpers also have a high level of LSD-RECEPTOR in their prefrontal cortices & hippocampi... perhaps the hallucinogen affects them in a 'different way' than it affects a so-called 'normal' person.

If so, then JUMPERS might be simply thought of as 'ticking suicide-bombs', or "FUTURE SUICIDE VICTIMS."

Perhaps instead of 'getting laid off/wife slept with the neighbor/etc', the hallucinogen itself becomes the 'trigger' for an otherwise suicide-prone individual to finally TAKE THE BIG PLUNGE... Wheeee!!!!

any thoughts?
-DICK

p.s. there's more data...i thought i should chip into the conversation before i found myself literally drowning in a sea of references...i will update as the information comes together..

Reputation Comments on this post:

I LIKE that train of thought a lot.

[Panthers007]

I think you may well be on the right track here, Alfa: Look into pre-existing history of depression and/or medication. This suicide stuff has Prozac written all over it. Like the homicidal school shooting in the USA. All those kids were on SSRI's. And a BIG cover-up was done to bury that part of the story ASAP.

[Richard_smoker]

not surprising to me... it seems that there is also a DEFINITE difference in effects of LSD on those who are chronically administered Tricyclic antidepressants (TCAs), MAOIs, lithium, & probably SSRI's as well. Just from the one study alone*, 5 subjects on TCAs were located thru "drug-interest" newsgroups for the questionaire to detail their experiences w/LSD and the findings were that their experiences were OVERWHELMINGLY more intense on equal doses of LSD as compared to their friends' experiences...I'm not really sure about the validity of the experiment, HOWEVER, remember that drug companies CAN LEGALLY REPRESS ANY NEGATIVE FINDINGS/STUDIES THEY WANT!! And it is the DRUG COMPANIES who really have all the data on their own drugs! (albeit hidden data!)

...really makes one wonder what effects are already KNOWN--by a select few--regarding chronic anti-depressant use and both hallucinogen intake & suicide rates.

*Bonson, et al, Behavioural Brain Research 73, 1996.

[Junket]

god damn swims mind is blown

[Wierd Logic]

Monkey hasn't ever done this before, but has been on roofs in states where he doesn't feel the connection to trying to stay alive and uninjured that he would whilst sober. Although that sounds like a bad thing, its actually extremely liberating to be in a headspace where you feel free from having to function as a normal human being. Obviously, being on roof wasn't a great idea, but nothing bad happened. Monkey can see why people do it, but it must take a lot to get there.

[entheogensmurf]

Originally Posted by Alfa

In the Netherlands there regularly are tourists jumping from buildings or even a bridge. This results in death now and then. Similar events resulted in the ban of magic mushrooms in the UK and Ireland.

These events may just be suicide. Does anyone have an idea what is going on with these people?

I can't imagine one would want to jump from a building in a trip. I need to understand, because soon magic mushrooms will be illegal here because of this.

There are stories about LSD, that people thought they could fly. I do not believe that to be true, but I wonder if these stories come from similar events.

Thoughts may transfer directly to the body without the filter that normally separates the imagination/mind to actual real world reaction. This in action could allow one to have cascading/leading negative thoughts as a result of trying not to think about such things or by thinking about them.

I imagine it's possible to think like this:

Think *touch my leg" and you touch your leg.
Think *stand up* and you stand up.
Think *slap myself* and you slap yourself.

All of this happens as a result of merely thinking it and not necessarily wanting to. The normal mechanism between thought is either absent or delayed.


Thinking something along the lines of a knife...
Sharp, shiny, slice, food preparation, finger knick, blood
...blood...
more blood
What makes more blood?
Deeper and longer cuts.
Why make deep cuts?
Suicide!
I don't want to die.
In what ways could I die?
Cut your wrists.
I don't want to cut my wrists.
Don't think about that!
Don't think about what?
Cutting your wrists.
Cut wrists.
Don't think about suicide or cutting myself.
I don't have a knife.
Where is a knife?
Kitchen!
Get a knife.
... the body responds and moves to the kitchen...
Do not cut yourself!
Cut.

You slice yourself open as a result of thinking CUT, as you have the knife the body responds before the mind halts the physical response or perhaps the mind was else where as the body was performing the action.

What are you doing?!
Stop thinking about cutting!
I don't want to cut myself!
Don't think of "cut!"
Cut.
The body responds.

The more the resistance of the conscious self could result in a more focus of what the person is trying not to think about which results in the action of what was being attempted to be blocked from thought.

-- So, there may be no actual desire to do such a thing but alas, the lack of a sitter or a few other factors could cause someone to act in a way that was either just a fantasy (perhaps a fantasy they think about without psychedelics, which is harmless enough) thought or the cascading association, maybe a type of domino effect that lead them to self harm.

This is based loosely on an experience that SWIM explained to me that was not in any way damaging; however, the potential was there. I in no way refer this to a normal experience that one may have whilst in the throws, nor do I consider this a valid reason to make shrooms illegal. It simply illustrates that wisdom, experience, respect and correct set and setting tend to be very important.

[AmIHighYet]

Originally Posted by entheogensmurf

Thoughts may transfer directly to the body without the filter that normally separates the imagination/mind to actual real world reaction. This in action could allow one to have cascading/leading negative thoughts as a result of trying not to think about such things or by thinking about them.

I imagine it's possible to think like this:

Think *touch my leg" and you touch your leg.
Think *stand up* and you stand up.
Think *slap myself* and you slap yourself.

All of this happens as a result of merely thinking it and not necessarily wanting to. The normal mechanism between thought is either absent or delayed.


Thinking something along the lines of a knife...
Sharp, shiny, slice, food preparation, finger knick, blood
...blood...
more blood
What makes more blood?
Deeper and longer cuts.
Why make deep cuts?
Suicide!
I don't want to die.
In what ways could I die?
Cut your wrists.
I don't want to cut my wrists.
Don't think about that!
Don't think about what?
Cutting your wrists.
Cut wrists.
Don't think about suicide or cutting myself.
I don't have a knife.
Where is a knife?
Kitchen!
Get a knife.
... the body responds and moves to the kitchen...
Do not cut yourself!
Cut.

You slice yourself open as a result of thinking CUT, as you have the knife the body responds before the mind halts the physical response or perhaps the mind was else where as the body was performing the action.

What are you doing?!
Stop thi'nking about cutting!
I don't want to cut myself!
Don't think of "cut!"
Cut.
The body responds.

The more the resistance of the conscious self could result in a more focus of what the person is trying not to think about which results in the action of what was being attempted to be blocked from thought.

-- So, there may be no actual desire to do such a thing but alas, the lack of a sitter or a few other factors could cause someone to act in a way that was either just a fantasy (perhaps a fantasy they think about without psychedelics, which is harmless enough) thought or the cascading association, maybe a type of domino effect that lead them to self harm.

This is based loosely on an experience that SWIM explained to me that was not in any way damaging; however, the potential was there. I in no way refer this to a normal experience that one may have whilst in the throws, nor do I consider this a valid reason to make shrooms illegal. It simply illustrates that wisdom, experience, respect and correct set and setting tend to be very important.

I've experienced that before. Damnit, there's a point I wanted to bring out there that I just can't put into words right now.

Has anyone every read anything, this as an example, while high and just thought "We need to inform everyone of this so further studies can prove it right." It just seems so urgent

[Make It Real]

Maybe its conforming to a set of subconscious expectations. Like Weed users who tend to watch things like Aqua Teen Hunger Force because its an stereotypical thing to do. It could also be compounded by reverse psychology. You tell someone not to think about Penguins, and the first thing that comes to mind is the forbidden bird. In addition, does anybody have statistics for people who have died falling from buildings and have had LSD or analogous chemicals in their bodies? The only one I can remember hearing of is Richard Alpert's, where he thought he could fly. After a broken leg and a large degree of press coverage, who is to say that one isolated incident spawned a whole series of Psychedelic copycats?

[nate81]

I thought those highly publicized fall/jumpers were reportedly under the influence of more than one psychoactive. weed + shrooms + alcohol + uppers, or some kind of crazy combinations. I could be mistaken but weren't most or all of those cases instances of multiple drug combinations? That certainly puts a spin on the situation in my mind. Combining drugs sometimes has effects that are "new" and not associated with any one of the drugs.

That said, there is a lot to be said as it regards the SSRI's. For six weeks I tried lexapro and it was the most god-awful feeling in the world. I felt like an emotionless zombie. Modern medicine needs to rethink mental/emotional medicine in a bad way.

[chaton]

My kitten sometimes has also suicidal thoughts when being sober, but all the time she is on DXM and sees the subwy driving in, she thinks about jumping how it would be jumping in front of it. So now, the kitten does't go by subway while being on DXM when she doesn't have a sitter with her. Instead of this thought the kitten hasn't any suicidal thought while being on drugs. But sometimes she has the feeling, that she could perhaps fly, and that she just should try it. But the reasonal (?) art of her mind reminds her, that she can't fly and mustn't jump out the window, or things like that.

[cra$h]

when swim's on psychedelics, everything seems to be in all good fun, and of course takes time each trip to reflect, absorb, and grow, but wants to have fun while tripping, and something like falling would be pretty damn intense. Between the wind, things flying past you, and just the fact that you're up in the air makes it sound like a must for anyone tripping. Although not recomended, it sounds like a pretty fun idea. And of course the longer the fall, the more you get to enjoy it, and that's when it gets ugly.

[sylenth]

it could very well be suicide. the tree stump had a thought & worry the other night whilst on a 1100ug dose of lsd. based on experience, perhaps these people are on their vacation & end up in an argument for what ever reason: perhaps the girlfriend or boyfriend hooks up with some rich tourist & decides to split there. if a person discovers news like this in that kind of state they could commit suicide from all kinds of emotions.

the smurfs stay on a 3 level building & the tree stump was worried the other night while leaving the smurfette alone in the room whilst in the studio thinking about things, as she had a few bad trips in the past & the smurfs have had issues in their relationship before. smurfette often feels she does'nt deserve the smurf & she is holding him back from his dreams... 'very silly' so there could be many insecurities & self esteem issues that cause feelings to do things out of such low self image etc... besides for being on a heavy dose of psychedelic in an enclosed area feeling trapped ,there is many recipes for disaster when ego issues are in play.

[EntheogenicTruth]

perhaps its just people. we like to throw ourselves off high places because we hate ourselves for what we do. the only reason that we're picking this issue apart is because the government is as well. one of my friends threw himself off a stadium roof when he was drunk and broke both his ankles and one of his legs. but the aussie government isnt pushing for alchohol to be banned? why not? because "drugs are bad mkay?"
;-)

Reputation Comments on this post:

"perhaps its just people. we like to throw ourselves off high places because we hate ourselves for what we do."...

[infekt]

I wonder how many of these people had pre-existing or underlying schizophrenia?