Opinions - differences between synthetics and semi's?

[frankz81]

hey all,i am new here,from aus as we dont seem to have any decent drug forums down under, but this one seems to be a class above any in terms of professionalism and quality of info....anyways...

just curious as to what the differences are between semi synthetic opiates like morphine and fully synthetics like methadone/oxy?

i sort of understand that fully synthetics are fully man made. in saying that ,forgive me for sounding stupid but what does that actually mean? all opiates are obviously processed by man right? morphine and codeine is found naturally in the poppy right? so does this mean that anything that requires conversion from morphine into another is fully synthetic?
i have read oxycontin is made from thebaine, which is found in the poppy, and cos it requires processing from the natural ingredient , does that make it a fully synthetic opiate??
also as heroin is made from morphine, needing to undergo a further process, does that make it fully synthetic also??
what else besides morphine/cod is not a fully synthetic??
i think i read that people would be less succeptable or prone to allergies with fully snthetics, and because of this maybe they are designed this way for that reason,along with others....
fyi i am allergic to morphine, i am not quite sure if i am allergic to codeine as i can take a couple 30mg's and be fine, doesnt really work and have never felt a buzz from it....
at times when i was on methadone but tapering down, when i would drop my dose too rapidly and felt wd's, i would sumtimes take 10 x 30mg's (forgetting about the toxicity of para) and literally not feel a thing. i mean it would ease the withdrawl taking 300mg's, but i certainly never got anything close to a high, but i would get insanely irratable, my head felt like there was ant's all over it, felt spacey with blurred vision and itchy as hell...i didnt get the severe stomach cramps or nausea like i get with morphine so i am really unsure if i am allergic to it or am 1 of the 7 that cant metabolise it??

i imagine there is a few of u who understand my train of thought and what i am trying to get at , so i would basically just like an answer that sum1 not too chemically minded would understand....

[Paroxysm]

Hey buddy, just to make a quick correction to a statement you made in your post: "just curious as to what the differences are between semi synthetic opiates like morphine and fully synthetics like methadone/oxy?"

Morphine is a naturally occuring opiate in papaver somniferum species and therefore would not be classified as a "semi-synthetic" opioid. Oxycodone, however is a semi-synthetic opioid because it is derived from thebaine, which is also naturally occuring in the opium poppy. Methadone is fully syntethic.

Now to answer your real question. All opioids are similar in chemical structure, but are classified under opiates (naturally occuring in nature), semi-synthetic opioids (any opioid that is derived from a naturally occuring opiate), and full syntethic opioids (opioids that are fully man-made eg. not created/derived from any natural opiate)

"Opiate" refers to any naturally occuring opioid, and "opioid" refers to everything else (semi and fully synthetic ones)

Here's a short list I've came up with for your informational purposes

Opiates (naturally occuring) - Morphine, Codeine, Thebaine, Papaverine (There are more but they are very insignificant and are basically just traces found in opium)

Semi-synthetic opioids - Hydromorphone, Hydrocodone, Dihydrocodone, Oxycodone, Diacetylmorphine (heroin) (There are more this is just a short list of the major ones that came to mind)

and finally Fully Synthetic opioids - Fentanyl, Pethidine, Methadone, Tramadol, etc.

[Oneiros]

If you are allergic to morphine, you are allergic to codeine. Codeine is metabolized into morphine.

[frankz81]

i knew codeine metabolied into morphine, but due to the amount of codeine ii could ingest i wasnt sure....

paroxsym, that for the informative answer....

so what are fully synthetic opioids made from then?ie if not made from opiates or opioids ,what are they made from?
also, if codeine is naturally occurring, why is it than made from morphine? is it that morphine is more abundant than codeine?

[Paroxysm]

To be entirely honest, I am not familiar with how pharmaceutical companies go about manufacturing these synthetic opioids.
As for your second question, yes, morphine IS much more abundant in opium poppies. The morphine content found in opium generally ranges from 8-19%, depending on the species, location, harvest time, etc,etc. Codeine, however, usually ranges anywhere from 1-4%.
Codeine is a much more mild opiate than morphine and therefore has a much lower dependance-liability. Codeine is fairly effective at relieving pain, and would be considered much less addictive than other opioids (codeine has a ceiling effect on how "high" one can get off it, and also has relatively mild withdrawals). I believe the reason for converting morphine into codeine is because the market for codeine is too large to be sustained by just what the poppies produce alone.

[Oneiros]

Chemists build the synthetic opioids from scratch. That is to say, they take simple organic precursors, run a series of reactions on them, and end up with a more complex molecule that now has an affinity for the opioid receptors in your brain.

Its like playing with legos.

Let's look at fentanyl for example...


Do you see how you might be able to get that from these:

[Paroxysm]

It's nice to see that SWIOneiros has a bit of a chemistry background good stuff.

[frankz81]

ok so synthetics are completely made from scratch, is that to say they are still derived from opium? if not , what organic material they derived from?

[Oneiros]

Originally Posted by frankz81

ok so synthetics are completely made from scratch, is that to say they are still derived from opium? if not , what organic material they derived from?

They aren't derived from opium. Each synthetic opioid is made from different building blocks. These building blocks are often synthesized themselves from even simpler compounds. The simplest organic compounds share their origins with the origins of the earth itself. They are drilled, mined, or otherwise extracted from the earth, then processed into pure compounds that would be suitable for use in a synthesis. Note that "organic" from a chemist's point of view just means a carbon-based compound.

A poppy does the same thing as a chemist, it just does a long, complicated series of enzyme reactions:

http://www.chem.qmul.ac.uk/iubmb/enz.../morphine.html

[allyourbase]

swim's experience:

swim has tried almost every synthetic opiate marketed and the two major ones created by (sic) god. the untouched opiates (morphine, codeine) have a definite stimulatory effect, that lasts until the end of the experiences and crashes into an energyless ball comprised wholly of the desire to sleep. swim finds them to have the most euphoria.

starting down the line:
Dihydrocodeine - similar to codeine, less racing heartbeat
hydrocodone - sleepy effects, strong outward (skin) reaction (itching)
oxycodone - intense analgesia, with some small stimulatory effects
hydromorphone - extremely sleepy effects, low euphoria


the euphoria provided by all is in swim's opinion of the same character.

[frankz81]

in swims experience,
morphine- allergic
codeine- almost no affect
sythetics- pethidine- best euphoria experience
-oxycodone- excellent euphoria but short lived
-methadone-tablets-strong euphoria-longer lived than above both,very relaxing
-fentanyl- best analgesia- almost no euphoria-no other effects
as we can all tell, every opiate/opioid has a different effect or each person

but i did remember that synthetics were less likely to cause allergic reactions than natural opiates, not sure why but seems true in my case

[frankz81]

ok i know i may be getting a lil annoying,
but do u know what organics or carbon based compound something like fentanyl or methadone is derived from?

so ur basically saying that these synthetics work in the way opiates do, but are made from something entirely different to the opium poppy yeah?

[Paroxysm]

Well, you asked :

The synthesis of fentanyl N-phenyl-N-1-phenethyl-4-piperidinylpropanamide by Janssen Pharmaceutica was achieved in four steps, starting from 4-piperidinone hydrochloride. The 4-piperidinone hydrochloride was first reacted with phenethyl bromide to give N-phenethyl-4-piperidinone (NPP). Treatment of the NPP intermediate with aniline followed by reduction with sodium borohydride afforded 4-anilino-N-phenethyl-piperidine (ANPP). Finally ANPP and propionic anhydride are reacted to form the amide product.

Wa-la you have fentanyl

Paroxysm added 7 Minutes and 49 Seconds later...

and yes, synthetic opioids have absolutely nothing to do with opium poppies. Chemists will take a broad range of chemical compounds (take one from the above post for example), react them with other chemical compunds (could be many steps), until they are left with a desired compound that has an affinity for an opioid receptor in your brain.

[allyourbase]

some synthetics are built upon affinity to mu receptors, from scratch (ultram, fentanyl), while other synthetics are built on the original phenanthrene morphine molecule, such as the dihydromorphinone series.

[frankz81]

ahh yeeeaaah thats a piss easy synthesis!

soo do u have a proper name for any of those compounds that a novice would understand?
thanks

[Paroxysm]

Nah bro, lol. That jumble of letters, numbers, and dashes you see IS the proper name for those chemicals. There is literally an infinite amount of chemical compounds that have either already been discovered, are to be discovered, or will never be discovered. It would be impossible to give every compound a "basic" name like table salt, heroin, or limestone. It's just easier (maybe not to the average joe, like you or me) to give a compound a name that describes what it is composed of... for example: 4-piperidinone hydrochloride. Thats as basic as it gets.

[frankz81]

thanks paroxsym,
fair enough with the reply,
atleast u hit the nail on the head about my initial answer and pretty much cleared the diff between natural and synthetics,thanks

[Paroxysm]

Ya man, glad to be of help.