Comedown - Combatting Amphetamine Psychosis

[HorseBucket]

Anyone here have any experience with using antipsychotics to alleviate the psychotic symptoms associated with sleep deprivation + coming down off amphetamines? Swim read that antipsychotic drugs like haldol and seroquel bring the mind back to normal and reduce hallucinations caused by amphetamine psychosis and sleep deprivation. Are there any adverse effects to using antipsychotics for this? Do they help you sleep too?

[ShawnD]

Originally Posted by HorseBucket

antipsychotics to alleviate the psychotic symptoms associated with sleep deprivation + coming down off amphetamines?

I would very strongly advise against this.

The come down period for drugs is usually the opposite of what the drug does. In the case of amphetamine, a common problem is dopamine depletion. Many antipsychotic drugs are dopamine antagonists, which would make dopamine depletion seem even worse.

Yeah something like seroquel will stop amphetamine psychosis and make people sleep when they usually can't, but at what cost? This isn't like shooting yourself in the foot; it's more like shooting yourself in the face.

[enquirewithin]

Some diazepam (or similar) helps, as it calms you and helps you sleep. But ultimately sleeping and eating are the only cure.

[stoneinfocus]

Originally Posted by enquirewithin

Some diazepam (or similar) helps, as it calms you and helps you sleep. But ultimately sleeping and eating are the only cure.

^^this is maybe the best, and -altough I've never encountered something like an amphetamine psychosis or seen it in others- maybe tapering down the use, just a little might make you feel as good as you'd never thought, it might get, with what you thought, put you into this misery.

[staples]

Originally Posted by HorseBucket

Anyone here have any experience with using antipsychotics to alleviate the psychotic symptoms associated with sleep deprivation + coming down off amphetamines? Swim read that antipsychotic drugs like haldol and seroquel bring the mind back to normal and reduce hallucinations caused by amphetamine psychosis and sleep deprivation. Are there any adverse effects to using antipsychotics for this? Do they help you sleep too?

It seems you may have a misunderstanding of what amphetamine psychosis is... it's not a symptom from coming down off of an amphetamine, but it's a symptom of taking too much amphetamine. If antipsychotics are indeed only dopaminergic in their action, then yes, they may help; however, dopaminergic action isn't the only factor of psychosis.

I wrote more a while back in a different thread about this... here

Reputation Comments on this post:

Thanks for the info

[HorseBucket]

ShawnD what are you basing those statements on? I don't know anything about the pharmacology or antipsychotics myself but I know they actually treat amphetamine psychosis with antispychotics.

Staples from swims personal experience the psychosis only starts when swims badly sleep deprived and the amps start wearing off. Never at its peak. In swims case it is true that its excessive consumption that causes it because its only happened when he pushed his limits and took too much. Not a drug to be taken lightly.

Anyhow back to the matter at hand. Antipsychotics seem like a good last resort if your hallucinating badly. Swim has never tried taking vitamins and dopamine and serotonin precursors like tyrosine and 4-htp but if he ever does amphetamines excessively in the future he'll be sure to replenish his natural chemical levels as best he can.

Swim also noticed the only time he ever had psychosis were the few times he didn't bother to drink lots of fluids and eat.

[ShawnD]

Originally Posted by HorseBucket

ShawnD what are you basing those statements on? I don't know anything about the pharmacology or antipsychotics myself but I know they actually treat amphetamine psychosis with antispychotics.

Amphetamine Psychosis

chemicals or drugs which similarly increase dopamine function can produce similar psychotic states

Normal Psychosis (frame of reference)

Increased dopaminergic activity in the mesolimbic pathway of the brain is consistently found in schizophrenic individuals. The mainstay of treatment is pharmacotherapy with antipsychotic medications; these primarily work by suppressing dopamine activity

Dopamine Partial Agonist Reverses Amphetamine Withdrawal

These results suggest that dopamine partial agonists [..] are a potential therapeutic approach for the acute withdrawal stage of the amphetamine addition cycle

Notice how a dopamine agonist helps treat amphetamine withdrawal. What you're suggesting is the exact opposite; to use a dopamine antagonist. If you're taking antipsychotics while going into an amphetamine withdrawal, you'll have the worst withdrawal ever. Here's a brief explanation of how that withdrawal would look: Parkinson's Disease.

[staples]

Originally Posted by HorseBucket

Staples from swims personal experience the psychosis only starts when swims badly sleep deprived and the amps start wearing off. Never at its peak. In swims case it is true that its excessive consumption that causes it because its only happened when he pushed his limits and took too much. Not a drug to be taken lightly.

Well, amphetamine psychosis refers to psychosis induced due to the levels of dopamine attained from using amphetamines or even other stimulants. This is why you may have read that antipsychotics can be used to combat amphetamine psychosis.

It sounds like the psychosis SWIY is experiencing is something else, then? In SWIY's case, antipsychotics should not help because the psychosis doesn't sound to be induced by intense levels of dopamine.

[tryptamaster]

Eating is probably the best and as hard as it is to sleep after being tweaked out that also helps. around 50 mg of diphenlhydramine(benadryl) often helps to get to sleep.

[HorseBucket]

Originally Posted by Dexyfiend

In SWIM's personal opinion having been a regular speed binger (A shitload of speed, usually dexamphetamine, at least fornightly) for the last 10 - 12 yrs he can honestly say that when hes taken too much and has been up for too long and is at some level psychoses nothing beats an anti-psychotic to end the party... SWIM has only ever taken olanzapine(zyprexa) and on a coupla occasions risperidol so he can't vouch for others in this departments.

Thanks for sharing that. Swim likes to hear direct experiences. Alot of swims friends also say antipsychotics alleviate the psychotic symptoms they get when coming down from a heavy amphetamine binge. Maybe it doesn't make sense to some people but nobody has all the answers. Even real pharmacologists aren't positive about how antipsychotic drugs really work.

ShawnD swims talking about the psychosis itself not the negative comedown effects like headaches and feeling like crap. Swim would take a headache over psychosis anyday. Although seroquel should increase the negative effects associated with comedown seeing as it blocks the already diminished dopamine supply from reaching the receptors the general consensus among people who have used Seroquel for coming down off stimulants is that it does bring you back to normal. Take a look at the Seroquel experiences thread thats stickied. Interesting. Maybe theres something being overlooked here.

Originally Posted by staples

Well, amphetamine psychosis refers to psychosis induced due to the levels of dopamine attained from using amphetamines or even other stimulants. This is why you may have read that antipsychotics can be used to combat amphetamine psychosis.

It sounds like the psychosis SWIY is experiencing is something else, then? In SWIY's case, antipsychotics should not help because the psychosis doesn't sound to be induced by intense levels of dopamine.

Swim thinks his psychosis came from extreme sleep deprivation, lack of food and dehydration because it only happened on the rare occasions that he completely neglected his well being and didn't bother to force himself to eat and drink. It actually was remedied to a certain extent by eating and drinking lots of water so thats probably the best cure in swims case.

On the other hand amphetamine psychosis is usually indistinguishable from genuine schizophrenia and they tend to treat it in the same way. What swim is talking about is how to alleviate the hallucinations and extreme delusions even if it makes him feel worse because in swims opinion these delusions are way more of a health hazard than a comedown because they can cause you to do crazy and stupid things.

HorseBucket added 13 Minutes and 58 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by humdroid

Swims had amphetamine psychosis, but don't stay on the stuff more than a couple of nights at the most. Swim dont do the stuff that often.
When he does fall to phet, he makes sure he has plenty of vitamin B complex.
If swims right, vitamin B3 or niacin stops the schizophrenics having psychotic episodes.Swim wonders why anti-psychs are needed, as this supplement has saved him from the dreaded "it's not that they're out to get me, they already have got me" psychosis.

Swim dont know if any others who have experienced amphet psychosis have experienced this fact. Swim can turn psychotic, even if he is in a good mood and no anxiety present. It's like the threat just appears.

Vitamin B3 swim will remember that. Thats the kind of psychosis swim is talking about. It hits you suddenly without warning. Swims fine for about 3 days and 2 nights but at the third night he loses the plot and starts hearing people walking around his house that aren't there, he's sure the police are surveilling his house and comes up with all sorts of ridiculous delusions.

It sounds funny but the thing is swim really believes all this shit is going on so he's paranoid as hell and theres nothing fun about it. He usually goes for walks at about 5 in the morning to see if there really are police watching the house which he finds out there never are but even that doesn't put an end to his paranoia.

When swims in this mindset he's paranoid so he's real cautious about everything so its not that much of a health hazard but its definitely not a good a thing. Swim would rather he never got that crazy and irrational. Its only once in a blue moon swim ends up like this and its always by accident when he stayed up longer than he intended but swim just wants to know what would be a good remedy if it ever does happen again. Its really hard to sleep at that point because theres still amps in his system.

Booze does the trick though. If swim drinks enough it knocks him out.

HorseBucket added 10 Minutes and 21 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by Panthers007

As was seen in 1967 with DOM (STP) casualties - DOM being a psychedelic amphetamine that wires one up beyond sleep - Thorazine (the prototypical anti-psychotic) had effects quite opposite to what was hoped for. While Thorazine (chlorpromazine) would stop an LSD trip (abruptly and crudely - don't), when given to wired-out freakers on STP, it had the reverse. It acted like atropine. Making matters much, much worse. Not only are they out to get you - now you can see them and KNOW they're real. And you don't know you're even in a hospital! Goodie!

Good to know. Best to be mighty careful using anti psychotics for things like these then. You say don't use thorazine because it ends the trip abruptly and crudely. Are you saying it causes physical damage to your brain ending a trip like that? In swims opinion antipsychotics like thorazine are definitely worth having around for emergencies.

Originally Posted by Panthers007

Whether this would be the reaction with the new whizz-bang anti-psychotics like Seroquel on someone undergoing amphetamine-psychosis remains unclear. But I'd suggest that the first person made to try this, in a clinical setting such as an emergency-room, be accompanied by their attorney.

One of swims friends did try this in a clinical setting and said it worked. He lived a couple of doors down from the hospital and was in such a bad state he checked himself into the emergency room, he told them he was hallucinating so they'd give him something to help him sleep but instead they gave him an antipsychotic (he doesn't know what kind) and he said after about an hour the hallucinations faded, he became real calm and fell asleep.,,

[staples]

Originally Posted by HorseBucket

On the other hand amphetamine psychosis is usually indistinguishable from genuine schizophrenia and they tend to treat it in the same way. What swim is talking about is how to alleviate the hallucinations and extreme delusions even if it makes him feel worse because in swims opinion these delusions are way more of a health hazard than a comedown because they can cause you to do crazy and stupid things.

Careful, amphetamine psychosis is generally indistinguishable from paranoid schizophrenia from a behavioral perspective. Amphetamine psychosis still lacks the inhibited-glutamate factor of schizophrenia in general from a neural perspective.

In any event, it doesn't sound like antipsychotics would alleviate the hallucinations SWIY is talking about because they aren't caused directly by amphetamines.

[Panthers007]

As was seen in 1967 with DOM (STP) casualties - DOM being a psychedelic amphetamine that wires one up beyond sleep - Thorazine (the prototypical anti-psychotic) had effects quite opposite to what was hoped for. While Thorazine (chlorpromazine) would stop an LSD trip (abruptly and crudely - don't), when given to wired-out freakers on STP, it had the reverse. It acted like atropine. Making matters much, much worse. Not only are they out to get you - now you can see them and KNOW they're real. And you don't know you're even in a hospital! Goodie!

Whether this would be the reaction with the new whizz-bang anti-psychotics like Seroquel on someone undergoing amphetamine-psychosis remains unclear. But I'd suggest that the first person made to try this, in a clinical setting such as an emergency-room, be accompanied by their attorney.

[Spare Chaynge]

Swim has seen people high of methamphetamine in detox. They gave him seroquel. It did not help him very much.

[Dexyfiend]

In SWIM's personal opinion having been a regular speed binger (A shitload of speed, usually dexamphetamine, at least fornightly) for the last 10 - 12 yrs he can honestly say that when hes taken too much and has been up for too long and is at some level psychoses nothing beats an anti-psychotic to end the party... SWIM has only ever taken olanzapine(zyprexa) and on a coupla occasions risperidol so he can't vouch for others in this departments.
Don't get SWIM wrong he is not exactley a fan of antipsychotic drugs, in fact he thinks that somne of the earlier types are completley fucked up but some of the new ones just fix u right up when youre totally fucked... it's not that you snap out of the psychosis it just knocks you out by, I believe, blocking the dopamine receptors hence stopping any psychoitic symptoms such as hallucinations and paranoid behaviour and giving your brain a break.
From there on in you can recover with food and rest.

The best thing to come down with however is opiates or benzos SWIM reckons

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good to hear

[stoneinfocus]

But for profit's sake, those are rarely given as an accute, but always as a chronic treatment option, which is the worse aspect and the perverted side of "help". Swim was given once risperidone and it alleviated a "could be called" minus symptomatic, but I think it caused some kind of mania, so the dose was upped until swim was a wreck, pissign himself at nights (a sideeffect) and couldn't distinguish thrist from hunger, while suffering both in horrible never accounted ways, and ironically drinking became a torment as well as just walking or any activity, as well as resting still was unbearable, making any until then drug-induced could-be-called "psychosis" something worth bearing(as it always was worth bearing it and with every second recognized as something worth bearing and part of something reveiling) and a nice experience, compared to that.

[humdroid]

Swims had amphetamine psychosis, but don't stay on the stuff more than a couple of nights at the most. Swim dont do the stuff that often.
When he does fall to phet, he makes sure he has plenty of vitamin B complex.
If swims right, vitamin B3 or niacin stops the schizophrenics having psychotic episodes.Swim wonders why anti-psychs are needed, as this supplement has saved him from the dreaded "it's not that they're out to get me, they already have got me" psychosis.

Swim dont know if any others who have experienced amphet psychosis have experienced this fact. Swim can turn psychotic, even if he is in a good mood and no anxiety present. It's like the threat just appears.

[POLSKA]

When swim combined seroquel with methamphetamine she had a grand mal seizure. I would advise to make sure you leave the speed alone for at least 8 hours before adding seroquel to the mix.

Reputation Comments on this post:

important reminder re: polypharmacy and the siezure threshold

[Panthers007]

Originally Posted by POLSKA

When swim combined seroquel with methamphetamine she had a grand mal seizure. .

Now this is the sort of reaction I was afraid we'd be hearing of. Imagine if the monkey had been driving to a hospital at the time?

[POLSKA]

The monkey woke up surrounded by EMT and couldn't remember what year it was. Not one of swim's proudest moments. And a nice bonus is that swim gets to seize out every now and then between days 3-7, waking up with her tongue chewed up and having to listen to the "crazy" story. So kids, think twice before popping a seroquel with ur speed.

[HorseBucket]

Swim doesn't know a single person that has ever had hallucinations when the speed just kicks in or is at its peak. Swim has only ever heard about people going delusional and hallucinating after staying up a few days on the stuff and is badly sleep deprived. Does swiy actually have any experience with this kind of psychosis? Swim and many of his friends have taken high doses of amphetamines too and never experienced any hallucinations at all.

Antipsychotics alleviate psychosis caused by schizophrenia too. Why would swiy assume antipsychotics only work on amphetamine psychosis?

Swim isn't advocating the use of antipsychotics he just thinks they have their place. In swims opinion they are good to have under ones pharmaceutical arsenal for emergency situations like an extremely harsh acid trip at the wrong place, wrong time or like swims been talking about to ease the delusions, paranoia and hallucinations alot of people seem to get after a heavy amphetamine binge without food and sleep. Another plus side of antipsychotics is they put you asleep so they seem to be perfectly suited for when you wanna sleep but have amphetamines in your system.

[staples]

Originally Posted by HorseBucket

Swim doesn't know a single person that has ever had hallucinations when the speed just kicks in or is at its peak. Swim has only ever heard about people going delusional and hallucinating after staying up a few days on the stuff and is badly sleep deprived.

Then it would appear that SWIY doesn't know a single person who has ever experienced amphetamine psychosis.

Originally Posted by HorseBucket

Does swiy actually have any experience with this kind of psychosis?

Amphetamine psychosis? no. Sleep-deprived hallucinations? SWIM is an insomniac, yes.

Originally Posted by HorseBucket

Swim and many of his friends have taken high doses of amphetamines too and never experienced any hallucinations at all.

Typically it takes quite a large dose, from what I understand.

Originally Posted by HorseBucket

Antipsychotics alleviate psychosis caused by schizophrenia too. Why would swiy assume antipsychotics only work on amphetamine psychosis?

Why should I assume the two are neurologically identical? From what I understand, antipsychotics aren't a terribly effective treatment for schizophrenia, they're just the best we have right now.

Originally Posted by HorseBucket

Swim isn't advocating the use of antipsychotics he just thinks they have their place.

Of course they have their place, and they may help with amphetamine psychosis, but what you're describing is not amphetamine psychosis.

[SeconalClerek]

When swiy has done speed for too long, not slept recharging your brain and swiy become confused. Time moves differently and seems weird and just plain confusing. If swiy is on the drug ie its still in swiys system and swiy need to come down quickly antipsychotics are useable. If swiy is coming down off the drug ie its coming out of swiy system and feeling confused or "Psychosis" then a Benzodiazapine is best they're even indicated in medicine. Diazepam being the best with sedative and anxiolytic effect equal to each other. in either case a benzo is best, safer, more effective and feels nicer like swiy is being brought back down softly. Antipsychotics are best and in my opinion and should only be used when "Terminating" drugs, in the case of LSD and such where the effect must be terminated quickly and not softened where the drug is causing distress and possibly psychological damage. Then something as strong and effective at tranquillizing the mind should be used.